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Morocan Roll

People or no people

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Hello,

In almost all the discussions I read about everyone is already at the “Retreat” or has a “BOL” to go to. The idea is to be as far away from everyone as possible. In almost every fiction book (and non-fiction) I read the upper hand is given to small communities. We bought a business in a small town that was on it’s last legs & revived it. In the time we have had our business I have become active with our chamber and in local politics. Through this I have met and become friends with a number of the citizens here and surrounding area. Every other week I play cards with the dentist. The town doctor lives less than a half a mile from me. In most fiction novels the small community bands together, and the diversity of skills prevails.

 

In real life, I believe the retreat idea works only for fortified ranches with a complement of ranch hands to help manage the day to day self sufficiency. Zimbabwe ranchers did this to fend off 10 to 1 or greater odds having the compound in the middle of the ranch like a fort. Not many BOL’s are built this way, and at the ranch the owner is the boss.

 

The small town idea sometimes works and sometimes it doesn’t. I don’t know a lot about the former Yugoslavian states, but their seemed a lot of neighbor killing neighbor. Here the community is homogeneous when it comes to political & religious philosophies. Bottom line, I like this kind of BOL because there are a number of people that can be specialized in a number of areas. Let me know what you think…

 

Morocan

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Morocan,

I like your thinking. Everyone's situation is different and what works for them may not work for you. A small, close-knit community, with "close-knit" being the key here, is great. I live in a farming area and the older folks are pretty much independant (generally good). Some of the newer residents to the area though are city-type dependants (generally bad). It would take a strong motivation for me to leave my home. Along with the farming capabilities, I have a well-stocked pond and plenty of deer and small game here. It's the kind of place I would look to bug-out to!

Welcome to the site!

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I concur, it is the small communities, nomads, and wandering bands of marauders that survive. Big groups can not easily feed themselves. The Marauders get killed off or tend to die of disease or starvation. Keeping the small communities far from big cities and major highways, especially interstates, seems to be crucial in all I have read.

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It is impossible, not difficult but impossible, for a really small group to defend a location while maintaining a BOL in terms of farming, site improvement, preparation for the future, recovery and growth. If you look at infantry manuals you find the area that a company of around 200 men can secure. It is surprisingly small and secure it is all that they do. If I am out planting I am not scanning my area for threats and I probably don't have my battle gear with me. In the small community you have enough people to do the work while also maintaining a reasonable level of security. The only way a small group survives is if they are not spotted by a large group. Just my not so humble opinion but in this case, I am very right.

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Yeah I think expecting a group bigger than a large family to stick together long-term if SHTF is crazy. Me and my tribe, that's it. Someone will always get jealous/violent/desperate/etc. Stay hidden if you can, if you can't maybe go around and mess up your own house/yard so it looks already ransacked. Biker gangs and street gangs and racist gangs and a lot of other groups already have a lot of fire power, living in a small functioning community after an event you'd be lucky to be enslaved after someone spotted you. I'm hoping the hard drug use and eventual withdrawal from the drugs will take care of some of them but not all of them are users. If things got bad enough I would most likely head for a remote, secluded, pain in the ass to get to place that nobody would want to fight over, someone's always got a bigger gun.

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Bad thing about your own retreat in the middle of nowhere is there is nothing to salvage. would be nice to go a find some scap metal, trade for an incedental needed item, ect....

 

hunkering down and through an event woudl be ideal solo but if long term living is the plan go with more people.

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IMO its what will develope after the initial collapse. Don't throw all your eggs in 1 basket, be fluid. Even basically good people will turn in bad situations. Don't be quick to form alliances, especially when you don't need them at this point. Relationships will come in time if its mutually beneficial.

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Interesting discussion and I think most have a grain (or 2) of truth in what they say. Isolated BOL that is not found is a good survival location. It is, unfortunately, not a good rebuilding location. Assuming TEOTWAWKI, and not just the end of the world, we are going to have to start building communities.

An advantage of the community is that it strengthens basically good people. There are those who will "sell out" not out of evil intent but simply because they are scared out of their minds. Solid people, not at all cowards, have been known to run the first time they are shot at. It is a reasonable course of action to preserve myself; it is only loyalty to the group that keeps me in the line of fire.

Since we have lost our tribal nature, it is the community that replaces the tribe in our culture. That and the LEO and his badge of authority tends to keep folks working together. A small group may be too small to survive as a group and too large to go unnoticed. A very bad combination.

Don't be quick to form alliances, especially when you don't need them at this point. Relationships will come in time if its mutually beneficial.

I agree after TSHTF. I personally think it is better to have the relationships in place before TSHTF. I'm not talking about acquaintances, I'm talking about friends. I have a lot of acquaintances but there are only a few friends I'd trust my back to in a fire fight.

Becoming part of the small town before TSHTF, makes you part of "us". Showing up after TSHTF makes you part of "them". I find it unlikely that a small community will run a secure compound in military fashion. On the other hand, the reaction to a threat will be immediate and violent - asks the James-Younger gang about Northfield.

Edited by Capt Bart
small and large groups swapped

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Friends and Family are a must in my opinion, you need food, they need toothpaste, thats another day of sharing you can provide eachother with without having to brave the streets for supplies. Not too mentions skills they might have, I would love to start up a Colony of people that I can trust, its just the trust thing is a must, not a "maybe", you have to trust the other people.

 

I always picture myself as a leader of said group but its just whatever it takes to survive.

 

Definitely people, in the documentary I just watched on Netflix "Collapse", this very interesting individual talks about a lot of issues. I would highly recommend watching it, he says the only way to survive is with a group, as a community, I slightly disagree but if you could trust your whole community its a good idea.

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I think that you need to think long term in any situation. With that in mind, initial SHTF, you might be better off by yourself, or with some very close friends. But in the long haul, things will start to settle down, people will become merchants, others will sell their skills (farming, metal work, pottery, soldiery, etc) to whomever can afford it, or supply them with what they need. In the Marines I worked with people I did not like. We stayed in line due to the nature of the arrangement, and the fact that we had one goal in mind. If the people involved with the group all have the same end in mind, and a descent level of leadership, I think that a group can be much better than on your own. i am not a good gardener, so i would make a poor farmer (at least right now), but i am a pretty descent Infantryman, and I think through problems prior to them becoming problems. I can do basic metal work, and wood work. I have skills that can be of use to someone, and someone has skills that could be of use to me. When money is gone, barter will be the king of the land, until a monetary system can be made up. Skills never run out of supplies, and people are always lacking them. it will truly be a hard day in the life of the tech weenie when the world collapses. "What skills do you have?" "I am a certified Microsoft Windows, and Microsoft Office user, I can program in C++, and I can type 200 words per minute." "Okay, can you do anything of use?"

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It would be nice to start a church, or join one, that has a focus on survival. It would not be a difficult task to get a few people who you trust to start one, have weekly meetings, share philosophy and stock up. I have seriously thought about starting one, but decided not too because of when SHTF, who knows how many people will show up...

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Mike, I think you nailed it on the head when you mention useful skills. Those skills may well be a new currency. I am far from the most handy person in the world (my wife, for one, is a better carpenter), but I am determined to learn how to do some simple welding just to have that skill under my belt. For Sonoran, I think you might find a few prepping friends in your existing church, but you will need to feel them out carefully.

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It would be nice to start a church, or join one, that has a focus on survival. It would not be a difficult task to get a few people who you trust to start one, have weekly meetings, share philosophy and stock up. I have seriously thought about starting one, but decided not too because of when SHTF, who knows how many people will show up...

I have a Catholic's bias against starting up new churches but what you might consider is forming a "camping and hiking group" at your current church. From there you can begin to find folks who might be good to include in your group. A survivalist church would be either VERY small or be open to the influence of the mall ninjas. It also identifies all members as preppers.

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Hiking group also opens up diversity a bit compared to church. You can accommodate people like Capt by finding a catholic minister(? not sure on the religious titles) to run the service and keep things in line with the catholic/christian/(whatever kind of church your starting) points of view and prepping but it's much easier to side step the issue completely and go on a hiking/camping trip every other weekend and have a trip planning, skill building, prep discussion(OPSEC) meeting in your off weekends. When your focus is on actually going out and hiking you dodge a lot of the mall ninjas who aren't up for 10 mile hikes. When you build your group with a commonality of religion it can strengthen your groups cohesion but you would also alienate a lot of people of different faith. Hinduism may not be what you believe in but when the Hindu guy who joins your hiking group loves the outdoors and is an abundance source of field craft information he is probably someone I would want to keep around.

Edited by Autonomous

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those are good points guys, i dont currently attend a church so the "start a church" idea kinda just came up in a discussion i had with a buddy the other day. the idea was to start a non denominational church that was open to any who wanted to join but have a very select few who were "in the know" about how the location was to also be a BOL. stockpile supplies together with a group, have a designated leader with "the key" in a SHTF scenario, the thing i was wanting to avoid is a waco, tx kind of atmosphere... a survivalist church would be an easy target so advertising it as such would be out of the question.

 

i like the hiking/backpacking group idea, would be an excellent way to find strong survival minded individuals, but what about accidentally alienating someone with medical expertise or another great skill?

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You can't win them all. Just be kind and welcoming to those with interest and see what you get. But choose those you intend involve in any SHTF plans carefully.

 

Hinduism may not be what you believe in but when the Hindu guy who joins your hiking group loves the outdoors and is an abundance source of field craft information he is probably someone I would want to keep around.

 

Both are good thoughts. I don't care if he is the perfect person whose skills absolutely MAKE the group, if he is unwilling to tolerate other members' beliefs then he will destroy the group he is meant to augment. Stress will be there even in families. In a group, like in a family, the added stress of an incompatible person can destroy the unity needed to survive. Think Moses at Mount Sinai; when Moses was out of camp those with a different belief system led the people astray. Adding a radical PETA member to a hunting group is probably not the best idea, for example. Just as all survivalist/preppers are not compatible do not make the mistake of thinking someone who would augment the skill set of the group will 'change' their belief system.

Similar belief systems aren't an automatic fit but remember, this is a marriage of sorts. Marriages between folks of two different faiths who both hold strongly to their belief system often fail. Marriages between folks who do believe alike fail all too often over things like money, kids, and jobs. In fact, a lot of marriages fail because one or the other partner expects the other to "change after we're married". Doesn't happen usually.

Edited by Capt Bart
clarification

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Small communities will be a good place to start rebuilding and also be self sufficient IMHO. I've posted elsewhere about starting or joining Community Emergency Response teams (C.E.R.T.s) and finding like minded people to form a stronger group/community. The CERTs offer free training, allow you to prep "openly" and create a foundation for rebuilding for a major event.

If no Teams exist, they will usually help establish one through a Church, neighborhood watch, homeowners association, etc; doesn't have to be a government entity.

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IMHO,you all are on the right road..so start to listen to those you know,build up a realationship.If you think about the future and want to trade with others after TSHTF,where you going to do that???Do you have a farmers market(an open and secure area ) that people can meet at and can feel secure.This is what is going to be needed, people will get togeather its in our nature.

The small Virginia town close to me has started one and I visted it several times this year,yep Im building a relationship with the "truck farmers"and their familys.I do NOT ask for a lower price on anything and if Its a child selling something I pay more than what is asked.Its good seed for the future and an oppertunity to make a friend and support local Familys.You never know what the future holds.

Be carefull, Talk to those that show an intrest in what you have in common.My Phar. asked me recently where can he get some information on Generators for his familys small farm,It started a conversation that lead to him checking out this Forum( Goverment surpluss) and built a better relationship for the future..Its just an example of what can happen .

Matt :}

Edited by 101matt

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From reading this thread, I think the majority feel the need to exist in some type of group setting, so the real question becomes how big? If you are talking manning a perimeter 24/7, you will find you need more bodies than you might initially think if you plan to do anything else. Working even a small farm without all the modern conveniences takes a lot of time and muscle, while for security twelve hours alternating shifts for watch might work on a temporary basis, but pretty soon they are going to get too worn down to be effective.

 

I do not mean any offense, but "me and mine against the world" sounds good, but cooperating with the neighbors, even if you don't like the way they dress or pray, might be a better long term strategy. That is, provided these hypothetical neighbors see the same value in working together. Just my thought, anyway.

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I expect the need for heavy security will either die off or you will. After the first few months of death destruction and people fighting to secure the last of the canned corn there wont be much canned food rations left. People can kill each other breaking into houses looking for food that's not there till eventially you get to a point where the majority of the people left have found a way to acquire food. Weather it's hunting, a backyard farm or photosynthesis who ever is left after 6 months is doing something right. taking food by force is a dangerous game and those doing it will take loses. larger gangs may form and if there good at what they do they could gain control of an area at which point there's better options then fighting a stand up fight. "We don't want any trouble help your self to some corn in the fields, can I refill your water just please don't hurt me" and about a week later when they are suffering from extreme dehydration from diarrhea because I gave them untreated water that is a good time to start guerrilla warfare tactics. If you have to fight a superior force don't do it in a fair fight. The trick is to hold out for about a year and make friends with who ever is left. Being able to negotiate with a farmer to help work his fields in exchange for the harvest from a portion of the land is where the fields will get there labor and defenses. You don't need to have your own group within a community but establishing some sort of alliance with neighbors will keep everyone safer.

 

Some will argue to exercise isolationism but the if the house 5 doors down gets broken into don't expect more then 5 days until the problem is at your door.

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all of these ideas are great, and i have thought about them in depth but i have always had one point that tripped me up. in the course of my day to day business and social interactions, i have the opportunity to meet countless numbers of people. it is forced lesson in psych and sociology that has garnered me an interesting perspective on the nature of people. what i have found is that the vast majority of even like minded folks is that they operate on emotion rather than logic. in practical application, emotion becomes dangerous to everyone as emotion often departs from logic that will keep you alive. while its all well and good to surround yourself with like minded people, it is also important that those relationships are so well formed that there is an emotional bond between you and those people so that the emotional decisions made will also include your safety as well. keep in mind that you likely will not be surrounding yourself with a group of infantrymen trained to fight as a cohesive unit, but rather you will be surrounded with husbands and fathers and brothers whose loyalty will lie with their family alone. for me, (and i am lucky) i have a very diverse family with skills ranging all over the map, so i dont feel the need to really look for others to include into my shtf group. i will round up my blood, and the supplies that each of us has compiled and leave. i dont share my level of preps with anyone as i dont want unexpected visitors that will deplete what i have amassed for my family. somewhat selfish point of view to be sure but i believe that if/when things get rough, it will be the logical, well prepared and selfish who will ultimately survive. as a brief follow up please dont take selfish to mean "me me me" as i am a firm believer in charitable giving and neighborly sharing, but not at the risk of my families safety. prepare your family and close friends, and teach or inspire them to pick up useful skills and that will be the best way to make it through. here is a little breakdown of the skills within my family.

 

me- general mechanical, carpentry, welding, hunting and loads and loads of misc knowledge to add to my food preps, weaponry and hand to hand self defense skill.

dad - same as me only 40 years more experience but minus some of the misc stuff

brother in law - same as me to a lesser degree

wife - psychologist and strong willed. this to me is of enormous benefit as she will be essential to assist in attitude of the group.

sister in law - dentist, and emt

father in law - electrical engineer, and excellent farmer/gardner. grows tons of fruits and vegetables in his condo so i believe with some space he would be able to develop a nice harvest

mother in law - architect in her former life and now an accomplished seamstress

mother - gardening, and strong matriarch

brother - he has no ordinary hands on skills that most would think are beneficial, but he is a people person to a degree i have never seen. he has the ability to read people, and make friends, negotiate and can pick up skills faster than anyone i have met. plus he works his ass off. i think this is a good person to have in a group.

kids - well what do you have kids for in the first place?? grunt work!!! plus they all know how to fish and shoot.

 

are we complete?? no, but will we make it?? absolutely

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Hi All, i see alot of post here on preparing for physical survival. And some post on religious thought. But what i dont see is a post on sprituality? The main reason for human life on this planet is to develope spiritual character! As you can take nothing else with you when you leave this world. This requires that one be spiritually awake? And not religious,which is more of a disease when applied incorrectly as it has been on this planet. People kill each other in the name of religion, and steal each others money and goods by telemarketing their churchs and religions. This would not be good to have this deception that is called religion in the aftertime. As you can see the pain and suffering it has brought to the world for thousands of years. But being a spiritual being is to be considerate of all life forms! It is growth in the right direction. Also many say that they will just form groups with their families? Well then genetics in the aftertime will all be inbred. People will kill to steal a young man or woman from another camp. Just to augument their genetic chances. There is no perfect survival group, just an ability to try to make it better. If you do not have love and charity,compassion and forgiveness your group is eventually headed for a downfall. Some wait for a government collapse, some wait for a nuclear war and others for the pole shift caused by Nibiru,aka wormwood,Nemesis. I will tell you all three of these and more will come within a very few years. Its a slowmotion doomsday as far as the earth is concerned,earthquakes,volcanos,bad weather is accellerating every year. The evil that runs the governments of this world is looking to accomplish its one world totalitarian oder. At the cost of billions of lives as you will soon discover. It is imperative to become spiritually awake to understand all these things as they are soon upon you now!

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