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Vicioustom

On the Subject of Religion.

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Sorry Capt Bart did not mean to step on any toes I just read your post after I posted this

 

And I am not a Clergyman but a very interested and loud cheering section in the bleachers of

 

science and all things related to God and the universe and one day I feel they will converge and be

 

understood as one and the same as IMO God created it all so the more we know the closer we come.

 

all I know is that anyone who is bored has not sat in a quiet place an contemplated all there is and

 

How God {IMHO} gives us power and knowledge to combine and form chemicals and metals etc

 

as well as create new breeds {not life itself} pretty heady stuff.

 

the universe was explained by "Fractals" Benoit B. Mandelbrot he observed and coined the phrase

 

if you as he did, notice how fractals are all around us I remember he was being interviewed and made

 

a statement as he consider them or the phenomenon as the "finger print of God".

 

Mandelbrot had considered that a formula could be extracted and used by computers to send information

 

in a sentence small but precise to show what you see or a camera and sent by computer in a code

 

so small that it would make computers many times faster at rendering a picture than even now.

 

the interview was to me as important as Einstein's theory but like his theory it was a bear to use

 

in the real world and I am not sure how far that fractal formulation has or will go because of tech

 

speed at this time is very good, but there are always people resurrecting ideas and taking them

 

to another level.

 

if you look at a fractal in motion and look at the edge of a tree leaf or a coastline on a map

 

it does make you think of fractals and how they are abundant in nature.

 

here is a link to free fractal generating software.

 

http://fractalfoundation.org/resources/fractal-software/

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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DesertRat.

p.s. This is the only thread to post this without sounding like a thumper. No matter how many "sins" you have commited, will commit, Jesus loves you more than you can ever know and wants you to know Him too.

 

 

AMEN.

Edited by biblenguns

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Snake,

 

No problem and I will try to answer your question. Just remember that the greatest minds in the western world have been working on this for about 2000 years and still don't have a complete answer. The argument about "why Mary?" leads to some interesting theological conclusions. I have a simple mind so it is a simplistic answer you're getting.

 

When Adam sinned he broke the covenant with God and incurred a debt that had to be repaid. The problem for humanity is that the minimum acceptable standard is perfection (in the moral life, not in every day things - I'm a mediocre cook but that is not a moral issue), as God is perfect. So even if Adam, or any human, were to live a perfect life, he could not repay the debt, he would only "not increase it", since he was living to the 'minimum acceptable standard'.

 

That is why Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, had to become man. But he had to be true man because it was a human will that disobeyed God so it had to be a human will that obeys and pays the debt. Jesus (the Word of St. John's Gospel) took flesh in the Virgin's womb (from the OT, "... and the Virgin will conceive and bear a child...."). Jesus and Mary would have had a strong resemblance since it was ONLY Mary's DNA that Jesus had. As the salvation event unfolded, it was The Word and the Divine Will that atoned for the sin of Man but it was the HUMAN Will of Jesus that agreed to that act. Jesus was not a man "possessed" by God like Satan possesses people, Jesus was fully a human being, freely joining with the Will and Power of God, freely choosing in all His humanity to do the Will of the Father. It was the perfection of the Word that accomplished our salvation but it was the agreement of the human will of Jesus that enabled it; in the Justice and mercy of the Father, it took both.

 

If that makes your head hurt, you are not alone. A great many heresies in the Church have revolved around the questions of was Jesus really a man, really God, really have both a divine and a human will, really have a human body and on and on. This "Hypostatic Union" was laid out in the Council of Nicaea in 325 and the Council of Chalcedon in 451 (this discussion goes back to the beginnings of the Church). It was these two councils that established that Jesus was fully God, fully human; two natures, two wills, one person. Easy enough to write, probably an impossibility for a human being to fully understand.

 

I don't know if that helps or confuses all the more. That is the truth as understood by the early Christians and is the dogmatic teaching of the Church today. At least that is my understanding. As I've said, a great many heresies have come from this area so I someone more authoritative than I says I'm wrong, I'm certainly willing to be corrected.

Edited by Capt Bart

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...Capt Bart, Snake

 

I think you may have hurt my brain a bit lol. Thank you for the information it's something to think about even for for someone who isn't a christian.

 

Knowledge can lead to understanding, which can help folks get along better. That's pretty important stuff imho, especially in hard times, which we're all trying to be prepared for in our ways.

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viciostom & MikeE

 

Better to hurt now than burn later LOL

 

To me it's like stringing beads one fact another a Bible verse then more and after what

was doubt is now starting to gel and in my world I like to look for the bright side

and my faith keeps me from being down about how things are going in the world right now.

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Wow! A lot of info here. I talked to my wife, took the suit out of storage, and we have decided to go to church on sunday! We are looking for a better understanding of faith. If I have any more questions its g good to know you are out there to help. Thanks

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Good and Gentle folks,

 

A bit of a sidebar here for this thread.

 

I've already posted more than I intended. That is fine as I just don't know how to keep my mouth shut anyway. My concern is about thread control. I am just as capable of crossing the line of acceptability as any of us. I want to make sure that if I do, you folks will call foul. I do not want to force this thread into any given direction nor will I be offended if make a mistake and someone points it out.

 

I get nervous being the moderator for myself - I'm too opinionated at times to see my own flaws. Consider this post your authority to tell the moderator he's full of hot air if it's appropriate. Just be gentle when you do so as I have a 'fragile' ego.

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Good and Gentle folks,

 

A bit of a sidebar here for this thread.

 

I've already posted more than I intended. That is fine as I just don't know how to keep my mouth shut anyway. My concern is about thread control. I am just as capable of crossing the line of acceptability as any of us. I want to make sure that if I do, you folks will call foul. I do not want to force this thread into any given direction nor will I be offended if make a mistake and someone points it out.

 

I get nervous being the moderator for myself - I'm too opinionated at times to see my own flaws. Consider this post your authority to tell the moderator he's full of hot air if it's appropriate. Just be gentle when you do so as I have a 'fragile' ego.

 

I realize the Religion is considered a hot/red subject as defined by a human relations class I once took, but so far everyone has been polite and civil. I'd like to think that we have a high quality of people here that will keep this a friendly and thoughtful thread, which has been the case so far your self included Capt Bart.

 

As I mentioned earlier Understanding, even in the absence of agreement, your fellow man is an important part of getting along and being able to work together with people of different backgrounds, invaluable during a crisis situation. And for me in particular this has been a useful thread for developing knowledge about belief systems other than my own, as it will be for others as time goes on hopefully.

 

I think, or maybe hope, that you're worrying over nothing, but you do have a lot more experience in the field.

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Capt Bart you have been a steady and considerate moderator IMHO

 

and this thread is optional reading if someone does not care for it pass as I do

 

with some of the others threads, if the content as in the communication thread

 

I can not contribute to with more than a basic knowledge I let others take the lead

 

I am not inconsiderate or disrupt the flow of pertinent information as other people

 

have a real interest or have valuable knowledge to impart.

 

but I do read the posts in all the threads some I agree with and a few I do not or

 

am not sure how to take it but each person IMHO has the right as this is America to

 

express their point of view as long as no insults or slurs are hurled as they are not

 

germane to the topic it does not forward the conversation which is the basis for

 

expanding our knowledge base.

 

I have been a non believer of certain information and have been turned by truth

 

and facts sometimes just the huge amount of supporting facts can move me.

 

God is like a rich man looking for a bride he hides his wealth to find one

 

that truly loves him for who he is, not for what gain they can manipulate from him.

 

at least this is my belief and only someone with a very dark personality would

 

try to take or destroy a belief that has no effect on them and actually should make

 

them feel quite superior if they actually think it is superciliousness.

 

people have been looking at me like I am crazy for years now they seem to be talking

 

with me and understanding what I have been warning about and the possibilities.

 

I think America should be a prepper nation we were before we had a 7 year strategic

 

reserve for many years.

 

now we have taken a path of all the other nations and they

 

are all paying for their inability to see that being prepared and saving instead of looting

 

the treasury and spending their inheritance like it is never going to end has come home

 

to roost, and now we will reap the whirlwind.

 

here is the kicker, saving and preparing as well as making sound choices and laws are

 

Biblical teachings as well as resting and forgiveness and so many others.

 

our society is stressed to the point of panic they work overtime and 7 days a week

 

as well as wives and even children and still the American dream is eluding them

 

and are up to their neck in debt we are human doing instead of human beings.

 

when we avoid good teachings of our forefathers and say we will make our own destiny

 

we will, and pay for it dearly.

 

It is clear to me at least if we would have elected honorable people to office that

 

these problems would not have been an issue and we still have time and can turn

 

back it would take a herculean effort but it will take that in either direction and one

 

way leads to success the other to failure want an example rockets yes rockets

 

look at the earliest rockets even Buck Rodgers cartoons look very similar to one today

 

the design was not the problem it was the controls just as the problem now it is not

 

the design it is the leaders controlling it. IMHO

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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Not to be disrespectful dk564. But i'm curious as to how you intend to survive after TSHF or something worse happens. Since in your opinion a BOB and it's contents are not needed. I will add this the first thing that went in my BOB was a Bible vacuum sealed to protect it.

 

Woofie55,

No atheists in fox holes. That comes first hand. They always call GOD and momma.

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Yes I am a prepper and I believe that some day I will need the things that I have put aside. I believe this because I know that even though God loves me and wants me to be happy, hardships will come, afterall Christians were eaten by lions! I believe that I have been given enough until I get Raptured out of here.

As far as after that Event a certain militant and false religion will be in place and control until Christ comes back to right things.

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I worry that minority groups/denominations will find themselves pressured to go along with more dominant groups, whether they be fundamentalist or mainstream, possibly forced to join them, or even be ostracized or persecuted.

 

That's a concern of mine as well. There are some folks out there who even now act like that. WORL I'm more than a bit worried about what they may do. Historically people have proven they are capable of anything if they believe God is on their side.

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Agree with NanaQuilts and Vicioustom that there may be some, um, "enforced adherence" in a post-TEOTWAWKI scenario, at least in some communities. I say this as a non-believer who has some experience working in and around religious communities, has read the majority of the Bible, and takes spiritual beliefs VERY seriously: it would not surprise me to discover that some people rush to churches for answers to "why did this awful thing happen?" and that some of the leaders of those churches may be driven by less-than-holy influences to build up and direct the activities of a congregation.

 

In a best-case scenario, people who turn to their own Bibles or to identified religious leaders/clergy will find solace, comfort, guidance, and a renewed commitment to their faith and to thinking about things like the meaning of life, their role in the world, and whether there's a greater power who has a plan for them. Their lives will be enriched, their connection to their Deity and their community reinforced, and it will be a positive, steadying influence in their lives.

 

Worst-case scenario, people's confusion and misery is exploited by a charismatic figurehead whose mission has to do with amassing his/her own wealth or power. Not only is this unfortunate for the people who will be misdirected, but in general, there will be someone or something that will be turned into a scapegoat. It's easier to hide what your true motives are if you've got everyone looking around for an enemy. For someone who is freaked out and holding on by a thread, hearing, "It's not your fault, it's the fault of X" would be very reassuring. Oh, that family down the road caused all of our misery? Or people who aren't in our church (cult)? Or people who have green eyes?... which could lead to all sorts of "righteous" actions that are anything but, especially if there isn't an established rule of law or LEO to keep people from acting rashly.

 

Again, I say this is a worst-case scenario... but a plausible one. We had recognized religious leaders like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blaming the ACLU, abortionists, pagans, feminists, gays, etc. for "helping" to make 9/11 happen - just two days after the terror attack occurred. Falwell in particular stated that he thought that could be seen as an opening salvo of what would happen since God was (I guess justified in?) deciding not to protect America from its enemies. So if you have widely known people doing stuff like this in the national spotlight following a major event, it stands to reason that it will also be done, perhaps on a more localized scale, following TEOTWAWKI.

 

Do I hope for better? Of course. And my experience with people who are sincere in their beliefs is that their faith will be a very, very good thing for them AND the people they encounter. But because religion can inspire such passion, it can also be a very dangerous weapon in the hands of those who are maybe not so pure of intent or those who might convince themselves that the ends justifies the means. It makes me nervous.

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Don't get me wrong when I say this, because I know who the boss is up above and I know he can Right a man Wrong, I have seen it happen, and as long as he know that I know he's the boss we will get along fine together. But you can bet that I will be staying away from all these holly rollers and born again christians if anything really bad happens. I sure don't want to be in a Jim Jones clan. We all know that religion can be taken way to far most of the time. Hell, we see it everyday on tv, God wants you to buy this book so we can build his kingdom here on earth.....TOTAL BULLSHIT.....those show really get under my skin, when they are sitting there on national tv ripping people off and telling them a dogfaced lie about this kingdom thats going to be built. LOL...the only thing they want to build is there bank accounts.

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First let me say I grew up southern /baptist, but also attended church of god and and several other denominations throughout my life, currently I do not attend church mainly because while I believe in a higher power I do not believe in organized religion. I believe ones worship of a higher being should be a matter of personal adherence and should not be dictated by clergy or a church or any other organization. I think "religion" is dangerous and history has proven time and again how dangerous it is. my fear is that certain religions will eventually try to assert themselves by force after a time if we have a total breakdown. for instance near us we have a several muslim compounds that I know are armed and prepping, as well as several "christian" compounds doing the same, on top of a mini-war that would break out between them catching the rest of us just trying to survive and rebuild in the middle, the winner might think that they need to "educate" the rest of us into their views and if not we will become the enemy. many people take what is said in whatever bible they read to the extreme and see it as absolutes, even more so when there is no society to temper that extremism. My only hope is that I can gather a group that stronger than them to be able to fight them off if and when that time comes.

 

anyway just my .02 on that subject

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I don't think you're wrong, wardog. And this is coming from the gal who lives in a state that suffered a bioterror attack in 1984 that was perpetuated by a cult in a rural community... There's a decent overview of this on Wikipedia, if you're interested. People do crazy things in the name of religion sometimes.

 

Personally, while I dislike organized religion and would not consider myself Christian, I see evidence every day that there is a benevolent God who created a universe of abundance and love and joy for us all to share. Unfortunately, I also see evidence of people getting completely twisted up about what that God might want us to do, caught up in mindless consumerism, numbed and disenfranchised from the good of the world by everything from TV to drugs. So I try to be grateful for and receptive to all that has been given, and I prep for my own peace of mind. LOL

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I don't think you're wrong, wardog. And this is coming from the gal who lives in a state that suffered a bioterror attack in 1984 that was perpetuated by a cult in a rural community... There's a decent overview of this on Wikipedia, if you're interested. People do crazy things in the name of religion sometimes.

 

Personally, while I dislike organized religion and would not consider myself Christian, I see evidence every day that there is a benevolent God who created a universe of abundance and love and joy for us all to share. Unfortunately, I also see evidence of people getting completely twisted up about what that God might want us to do, caught up in mindless consumerism, numbed and disenfranchised from the good of the world by everything from TV to drugs. So I try to be grateful for and receptive to all that has been given, and I prep for my own peace of mind. LOL

 

I remember that I was just a kid when that happened but I remember it. and Im totally on the same page, there is a fine line between extremism and total apathy but you can only prepare yourself and your loved ones spiritually, all the rest is out of our control. just prepare and keep yourself and yours safe. do good for those who deserve it and do good to you but prepare to do violence upon those who would do so to you.

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Religion, like anything, can be simplified, but many people cant accept the truth or adapt to it so they argue there point because they either dont realize it or they hate being wrong.

 

I have twisted and torn my mind over many religions and spiritual pondering for years and years and I'm figuring out everything that makes sense and am trying to share my points in a way where anyone with (keyword) common sense can understand WHY I believe what I believe. I believe in reason, its reasonable to want to live a good life, its reasonable to get married, its reasonable to even believe almost any religion actually. Thats reasonable. Whats not reasonable is starving people dieing because greedy people are allowed to be (keyword) unreasonable. Every good idea ever thought of should be put into action and people need to start thinking more, and acting more, and not living a crappy lifestyle because they have issues or are lazy. If you really want god to love you and really want to be a good person then CHANGE the world, don't turn your back on what really matters but of course have a good life as well.

 

(Also) In my opinion, the thought of corporations are unreasonable, everyone likes the idea that they (keyword) "may" make it big in America, but 90% of the people or more end up on the shit end of that stick. And making it big is cool, but in my own perfect world NO ONE needs to have more then a billion dollars unless there an amazing person doing amazing things, not greedy people trying to get even more richer and corrupt and etc...

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

"If there's a truth out there its your duty to learn it"

 

Thats my motto

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DefaultHuman,

At some point the amount of money is only a way to keep score! No one NEEDs more than enough to live simply just like no one NEEDS more than the basic 3 gun + 22LR battery. As we make more we let our wants become needs. Specialized tools are great so we get them (more guns!) but it is beneficial to keep NEEDS separated from WANTS.

 

An interesting insight into corporations comes from G. K. Chesterton. A writer from the early to middle 20th century he has become one of my favorite writers. He would object to the term philosopher since he wrote for news papers but he is a good read.

 

One of a humans primary responsibilities is to search for the truth. Not what we want it to be but what it actually is. If you do that, you end up finding God since He is TRUTH. The problem with groups that force religious conformity is that it is almost always corrupted by less than righteous members. It can be extremely hard to differentiate between the prophet and the lunatic. Jim Jones comes to mind or Heaven's Gate.

 

We do have to be careful assigning blame or guilt to what may simply be ignorance or human error. Still, the authority of government to enact laws comes from the concept of morality which is a religious concept. I always get annoyed with "you can't legislate morality" statements because they are demonstrability untrue, even at the most shallow level. I am not allowed to steal because it is immoral. Who says so? Most laws revolve around religious prohibitions against theft, murder, or otherwise harming others.

 

A great many social conventions also arise out of religion. Those conventions are the oil that allow societies to work. When we replace them with situation ethics and relativism then society breaks down and nations fall. What proof? Look at the fall of the Roman empire and compare it to Europe today. Then examine the path America is on. The collapse of Western Civilization is inevitable unless we make major changes. I suspect that those changes will result only from a rediscovery of the necessity of the divine in our lives.

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