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shadowplyr

dog or no dog?

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For the morons who would shoot the old dog-or simply leave it to starve to death or be butchered, or dump any animal because it now is not convenient for you-do everyone, including the dogs and cats, a favor. Do Not Own Any Animals.

 

Stealth, I can't fault you for your passion. Perhaps you took what I wrote the wrong vein, so let me clarify;

My post is taking into account worst case scenario. A true end of days event. Anything like an evac, temp bug out, bug in, etc and the dogs are good. If it helps you sleep tonight, they come into the shelter with us when the tornadoes visit.

Here's where we'd be if this moron didn't keep (can't say I own them) animals. Old man dog would have been drowned in a bag as a puppy by the cattle dog breeder because of signs of deafness & blindness. Little whiny dog would have been left where I found her on the side of the road, muddy, shaking and hungry. Dane/lab dog would have been just another dog I saw at the rescue shelter.

 

I adore them and would definately have them with me as long as they didn't put my family in danger. Realistically speaking - I'm not going to have my grandkids harmed because my dog wouldn't stop barking.

Pretty much where I'm at with little whiny dog. Reasonably said Gillie.

 

please, under no circumstances turn 'fluffy' loose so she can live! It doesn't work that way and the way 'fluffy' dies is no kindness.

Extremely valid point Capt. I think one of the main components for prepping is mental prep. I do this daily, basically thinking through possible scenarios and deciding in advance how to react to them. Anything from driving (what if the car in front of me blows a tire, where can I go?) to TEOTWAKI events. In this thought process I've considered our animals. Only the worst instance will force me to leave any of them behind. Earlier I'd mentioned letting the LWD be, but reading your post I can see the inhumanity of it. Words are seeds for thought, thanks for yours.

 

I stand down at your request. lol...

 

I do, however, take offense at an "absentee" poster charging in and misconstruing anything either I, or The MCs or others said. Having said my piece, I'll move on. But not without extreme prejudice.

 

Appreciate these forums and what they have to offer.

 

~J~

Well said & agreed. I'm not trying to stir it back up, just thought since I'd missed a couple days comp time I'd try to clear myself up a bit.

 

I've had to have dogs put down, and it's rough. If you think I don't love my dogs or provide for them, you're wrong. Our dogs are inside with us, never believed in "outside dogs" unless they work. But you'd better believe that without hesitation the safety of my wife & children come before that of my dogs.

 

Glad to see some healthy debate on here. If everyone felt the same, it would get boring. There wouldn't be a point to asking the question, dog or no dog? I don't agree with getting a dog as another tool in the event of the SHingTF. But it's an incredibly good idea to have your dogs trained for it so they can be an asset instead of another burden.

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Okay-maybe morons was a bad word. But after 2 weeks in New Orleans with the rescue group, I needed to see someone for extreme mental anguish. No kidding! It was horrible what we pulled out of houses and apartments. I actually watched one woman come home to a house & the cocker spaniel in the backyard is wet, filthy, and starving but still happy to see the owner. The owner never got the dog, talked to dog, nothing. She looked for some belongings and took off. The dog was about 5 yro and weighed 12 pounds when we picked it up! And the dog was happy to see ANYBODY at that point. God Bless the people who do rescue. I will donate money, but I know now that I can't be on the body brigade. It is true-it would have been kinder to shoot the dogs and cats rather than trap them and split. There were many good people that we met:who rescued drowning animals of all kinds, who stayed with their pets rather than abandon them,and those who came back for no other reason than to help the rescue groups. Heaven has a special place for those people. Animal ownership IS a burden-no question. But, be honest with yourself. Do you really want the burden? Is the trade off in friendship, love and devotion enough for you? You can't fix stupid-we had one woman adopt a nice little terrier, only to bring it back 4 years later because it no longer matched her furniture! She wanted a trade in! Know the breeds, know your lifestyle and know what you want in your future. My idea of hell is all white furniture, with a white berber carpet, and silence. I have wood floors, leather furniture, and noisy kids and dogs. I am at peace. I read survival cache all the time, but rarely post. This one turned all my screws at once. Sorry to offend.

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Juzzcallmesnake,

 

For the record, all animals are sentient.

 

Just because animals are not expressive (to us) does not make them non-sentient beings. Would you call a child with down syndrome or autism who has no verbal communication skills non-sentient? I hope not.

 

I work with kids that have developmental disorders. I've taught a child who had never spoken for 10 years to use short sentences to communicate wants. Just because someone or some animal does NOT communicate does not mean they are not sentient. Developmental psychologists usually evaluate kids in two domains of verbal behavior. Receptive and Expressive.

 

My dog doesn't say... "Hey I really need to take a piss"..... instead he comes up to me and starts whinning... then he runs to the door....

 

Did he say to himself "Damn dude I really need to take a piss......how do I get this bastards attention?".....

 

No he just came up to me and annoyed me. He _consciously_ went about that. (technically he's my brothers dog)

 

Now DON'T even get me started on the matter of 'free will'!

 

Intelligence has nothing to do with being sentient. Intelligence is just a word people use to communicate an abstract concept. An "IQ" is just a score on a test.

 

A Test is just a series of problems to be "solved".

 

A Problem is just a behavior chain that must be emitted in order for an organism to get the reinforcer (solving the problem/being praised/getting a high score)

 

It all boils down to behavior. If an animal behaves, it is sentient.

Edited by exit

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Juzzcallmesnake,

 

For the record, all animals are sentient.

 

Just because animals are not expressive (to us) does not make them non-sentient beings. Would you call a child with down syndrome or autism who has no verbal communication skills non-sentient? I hope not.

 

i agree here.

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First,JCMS..I like the new Tag you have..Infidal..was looking at the Hat.

Second I put 2 of our dogs in the ground last year,old age and a broken hart.Like Capt.said its not easy.

Third my cats come when I whistle, and my youngest one rides in the car with me looking out the window.They do notice everything that moves.My oldest Tom cat TIGER keeps the neighbor hood clean of anything with a tail.I had to remove our bird feeder because they started to ambush them,team work.

Both the oldest and youngest sleep at the foot of the bed.

So Im a cat guy untill I get some acres to farm.

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Get one from the local Animal shelter.The Cat bread I realy like is the Mauw.Looks like a grey tiger but has spots also at the hind quartes.Egyptions bread them and they are great hunters,and sneckey to.

Sorry the youngest is on my lap..Her name is Cinders..

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Get one from the local Animal shelter.

 

lol that would be the only place i would be allowed to get one.

my g.friend spends a lot of time and money in the country of panama. shes part of the

spay panama program. thats why i left that other post alone about shelters. i can tell ya things

you cant imagine. when the poster was talking about the hundreds and hundreds of animals left behind by katrina, i know his thoughts. panama is very differnt. you can take a short trip across town and see hundred on any given day, let alone a trip of any real length of time.

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exit

 

be glad they are not sentient because they are not judged and heaven will be filled

with animals lions lay down with lambs and numerous other scriptures.

 

I did not say they were not important but they are equal to any other animal

if equality is wrong then please let me know what the hierarchy is?

 

we have power to create do not believe that then look at all the breeds of animals

on this planet man has thought out and bred.

man has the power over life and death and the responsibility of same.

waste in any form is wrong but one is no different than another animal wise.

I have had pets of every kind dogs,, cats skunk, ferret, deer, pigs. rabbit,

goat, tarantula, fish of all kinds, flying squirrels, raised horses and cattle

had mules, turkeys, chickens ducks, peacocks, Guineas, pheasants, quail,

cockateels, love birds, finches, doves, geese, parakeets, turtles catfish

and helped raise and wrangle others.

 

and have fostered and freed many animals as well as harvested for food raised for

sale as pets so do not begin to explain animals to me I have had intelligent animals

of every species I had a squirrel that was smarter than my ex wife.

my rabbits know when I am going to feed apples they love them.

i had a duck that would lay it's head in my lap and go to sleep a chicken that would

perch on my shoulder goat that would follow me all over and could fetch

No I do not know anything about animals except they can all be special.

 

everything in this world is connected you cannot eradicate one and not effect

everything else by the same process everything has a purpose.

but everything comes to an end either by it's decisions or eventualities.

this does not mean they are being punished the next world is better and no pain

and no end IMHO.

 

most people have a couple of dogs or cats and think they understand animals

that is like having a book of quantum physics and think you understand the universe

when animals interact with humans they change and we change

chemically, physically, mentally once this world

understands that good, evil, pain, love, hate and all these other feelings

are just as important as water or food or air "WE WILL NEVER GET IT"

 

RESPECT for life is our mirror to our humanity and understanding of our responsibility

to GODS creations which he has placed us in charge of for food clothing friends and

tools to hunt defense and warn, to get work done

We are not to abuse but they must remain under control a an animal

that is not controlled can hurt or kill us or themselves

if we take them for food the quickest most painless way is the only way

anyone who feels power or good is thinking wrong it is solemn not in a spiritual sense but as a job we do it but do not need to like it.

 

the world just broke 7 billion people if you think you can keep them alive on

rice and beans then your not considering the vast differences in extreme climates

and growing seasons and god will care for the animals they are his property

we are the ones in danger we have a soul and we have free will it is us who will

be judged not animals and it is for us to try to keep our humanity and faith

 

dog or no dog well that is a good question can you put them out of their misery?

can you love them can you care for them as in cleaning dressing wounds giving shots, cleaning stalls bedding playing with them giving them TOYS

worm them bath them comfort them I have spent quite a few nights watching over

sick, injured and new borne animals wild and domestic.

I spent a day on a chicken that fell in a bucket

of icey water, that is the one that perched on my shoulder at least she unlike most people

I have helped had a sense of gratitude and understanding animals are teachers also.

And laid eggs like a machine and raised and protected her chicks, and did

not mind me checking on them.

Are you a mercenary that pays to have it done because your too KIND HEARTED.

to do what needs to be done so they do not suffer?

 

Life is complicated death is even more so.

I do not hunt for "sport" I have no trophy's I hunt to eat and do not like these

hunting shows where they high 5 and chest bump I take consolation that they passed

quick and are not going to be wasted and in the prime of life, nothing is so cruel as

nature on the old, sick and very young this I know without question.

 

IMHO

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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First,JCMS..I like the new Tag you have..Infidal..was looking at the Hat.

Second I put 2 of our dogs in the ground last year,old age and a broken hart.Like Capt.said its not easy.

Third my cats come when I whistle, and my youngest one rides in the car with me looking out the window.They do notice everything that moves.My oldest Tom cat TIGER keeps the neighbor hood clean of anything with a tail.I had to remove our bird feeder because they started to ambush them,team work.

Both the oldest and youngest sleep at the foot of the bed.

So Im a cat guy untill I get some acres to farm.

 

I am glad you like the avatar 101matt I thought it was fitting.

 

Cats are important on a farm or ranch just as much as dogs the biggest destroyer of tack and feed

are rats and mice they will eat a saddle to nothing eat through feed buckets and bags as well as

piss and sh*t all over hay and tools even eat wiring and hoses on machinery.

 

so don't give up the cats you just can't feed them as much so they can do their job kill vermin.

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exit

 

be glad they are not sentient because they are not judged and heaven will be filled

with animals lions lay down with lambs and numerous other scriptures.

 

I did not say they were not important but they are equal to any other animal

if equality is wrong then please let me know what the hierarchy is?

 

we have power to create do not believe that then look at all the breeds of animals

on this planet man has thought out and bred.

man has the power over life and death and the responsibility of same.

waste in any form is wrong but one is no different than another animal wise.

I have had pets of every kind dogs,, cats skunk, ferret, deer, pigs. rabbit,

goat, tarantula, fish of all kinds, flying squirrels, raised horses and cattle

had mules, turkeys, chickens ducks, peacocks, Guineas, pheasants, quail,

cockateels, love birds, finches, doves, geese, parakeets, turtles catfish

and helped raise and wrangle others.

 

and have fostered and freed many animals as well as harvested for food raised for

sale as pets so do not begin to explain animals to me I have had intelligent animals

of every species I had a squirrel that was smarter than my ex wife.

my rabbits know when I am going to feed apples they love them.

i had a duck that would lay it's head in my lap and go to sleep a chicken that would

perch on my shoulder goat that would follow me all over and could fetch

No I do not know anything about animals except they can all be special.

 

everything in this world is connected you cannot eradicate one and not effect

everything else by the same process everything has a purpose.

but everything comes to an end either by it's decisions or eventualities.

this does not mean they are being punished the next world is better and no pain

and no end IMHO.

 

most people have a couple of dogs or cats and think they understand animals

that is like having a book of quantum physics and think you understand the universe

when animals interact with humans they change and we change

chemically, physically, mentally once this world

understands that good, evil, pain, love, hate and all these other feelings

are just as important as water or food or air "WE WILL NEVER GET IT"

 

RESPECT for life is our mirror to our humanity and understanding of our responsibility

to GODS creations which he has placed us in charge of for food clothing friends and

tools to hunt defense and warn, to get work done

We are not to abuse but they must remain under control a an animal

that is not controlled can hurt or kill us or themselves

if we take them for food the quickest most painless way is the only way

anyone who feels power or good is thinking wrong it is solemn not in a spiritual sense but as a job we do it but do not need to like it.

 

the world just broke 7 billion people if you think you can keep them alive on

rice and beans then your not considering the vast differences in extreme climates

and growing seasons and god will care for the animals they are his property

we are the ones in danger we have a soul and we have free will it is us who will

be judged not animals and it is for us to try to keep our humanity and faith

 

dog or no dog well that is a good question can you put them out of their misery?

can you love them can you care for them as in cleaning dressing wounds giving shots, cleaning stalls bedding playing with them giving them TOYS

worm them bath them comfort them I have spent quite a few nights watching over

sick, injured and new borne animals wild and domestic.

I spent a day on a chicken that fell in a bucket

of icey water, that is the one that perched on my shoulder at least she unlike most people

I have helped had a sense of gratitude and understanding animals are teachers also.

And laid eggs like a machine and raised and protected her chicks, and did

not mind me checking on them.

Are you a mercenary that pays to have it done because your too KIND HEARTED.

to do what needs to be done so they do not suffer?

 

Life is complicated death is even more so.

I do not hunt for "sport" I have no trophy's I hunt to eat and do not like these

hunting shows where they high 5 and chest bump I take consolation that they passed

quick and are not going to be wasted and in the prime of life, nothing is so cruel as

nature on the old, sick and very young this I know without question.

 

IMHO

 

I won't argue with you because you see the world through a completely different frame.

 

I don't believe in a God that judges anyone. There is no such thing as good and evil, only circumstances of right and wrong, which is what you are basically saying, there are situations where you have to do what you have to do. I don't disagree with that. I completely disagree that animals are not sentient. You haven't given me one reason where animals are NOT equal to us to explain logically why they are not sentient. Animals are just as responsible for life and death as we are. They have just as much an impact on this world as we have.

 

No they can't build bridges. But if we couldn't eat them we wouldn't be able to build bridges in the first place. No they can't communicate with us directly with verbal behavior. But their behavior is governed by the same principles of behavior as humans.

 

I will never agree that animals are not sentient. They are aware. They may not see the world the same way we do. But they are aware.

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christ has power over life and death, not man.

 

Of course your right, what I meant was:

 

Genesis 1:26

King James Version (KJV)

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

 

just for some clarity of what is unclean and I think tough as old shoe leather or taste bad.

 

Leviticus 11:13-20

New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,[a] the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite, 15 any kind of raven, 16 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, 18 the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, 19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

 

20 “‘All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you.

 

 

I feel this is a good rule as all of these eat dead and vermin so unless as a last resort.

 

below here was Peter and you can read the context in ACTS

 

Acts 11:5-10 (KJV)

 

5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

 

6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

 

7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

 

8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

 

9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

 

10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

 

So I leave it to you and your sensibilities as to what you can or will eat.

 

IMHO

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exit

 

first in all respect state you have the right to your opinion.

 

Aware is true responsible is quite another and understanding of cascading events from an action

is different than just being aware.

Under your definition of aware would also be applied to insects as they are aware and can attack us

for bees for example stealing their honey.

locust searching from the air the green forage that they need seek it shows intent and knowlege

so they are sentient?

 

I think you would be glad the are not sentient as they are blameless and not judged and in Gods eye are

perfect.

We do have the right to judge them as if they kill a human they are to be put to death.

 

Exodus 21:29

New International Version (NIV)

29 If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull is to be stoned and its owner also is to be put to death.

 

 

As far as a Judgmental GOD I give you this to consider

 

2 Timothy 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

Acts 10:42

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

 

 

you stated right and wrong then there must be good and bad so come on wait for it good and evil.

One position I got wrangled into was to transport "dangerous criminals" who judged them was not me.

anyway I noticed that this breed of person never had a though in their head other than to do wrong

/ evil whether to steal or rape or murder and would say it plainly and had been put in prison for it.

Some had escaped and did it again or multiple times before being caught again.

 

I know you have never met one of these boys because if you had you would understand why

I believe in evil and judgement.

situational issues well I have never found a situation where murdering an infant was necessary

I could be wrong but it is IMHO

 

things have been twisted in our day from when I was young until now I hardly recognize our country

beware of what you believe even if you do not believe in God these people exist and have no conscience

and will kill anyone for no reason or for whatever piques their fancy

 

animals even if they kill are not considered evil but a unnecessary danger to people so must be removed

they are a vessel and man can teach them to kill or harm so it is not the animals fault or they could have

been mistreated we cannot know all I understand to some minor degree is that once dead

Certain things disappear no hate or fear or need sickness or death hunger greed sloth guile or

jealousy can touch us any longer.

 

I understand your love of animals, and have had good interaction and play with elephants and bulls

horses and every other kind but they are not human nor sentient because of one little thing,

 

Synonyms: alive, apprehensive, aware, cognizant, mindful, sensible, conscious, ware, witting

 

they cannot see the long term effects of their actions or ponder them they can when scolded be "sorry"

and with enough interaction can understand this displeases you but that is not being totally cognizant

so therefore not to be judged but managed for our protection.

 

I had a neighbor with a viscous dog it was not trained that way just was even a dog wisperer

would run from this dog even he was wary of it but could not find it in his heart to have it put

down and it got away and attacked a child he is no longer a neighbor and lost everything,

and is responsible for injury to a child so you believe as you will I know what I know and seen.

 

this opinion is given with some scripture and some background only for you to see why I think and

see life, man, dogs and animals as I do not to infer anything or dispute you or your reasoning

I just give an alternate vision.

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sorry got side tracked

 

what if a dog killed bill gates just before he got Microsoft going

or madame Curie or George Washington was taken out by a bull or horse.

 

you do not give God credit enough nor animals the magnificence they deserve they have toppled

dynasty's and nations read of Alexander the great and his elephants.

 

and dogs have gotten us intelligence / intel by finding enemy caves that shortened the wars

and saved lives of soldiers and civilians and brought peace but all they wanted was the kibble

so no they are not cognizant because if they were they would not have worked for the NAZI's

or chase innocent people because the owner directed it.

 

IMHO

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Originally Posted by exit

Juzzcallmesnake,

 

For the record, all animals are sentient.

 

Just because animals are not expressive (to us) does not make them non-sentient beings. Would you call a child with down syndrome or autism who has no verbal communication skills non-sentient? I hope not.

 

i agree here.

 

come on guys now play fair no down syndrome, cripples, Alzheimer patients or coma victims nor

Walmart employees or walmartians, green peace members or your mother in law.

 

and dogs are expressive mine talks not English but in his own fashion when he is hungry he

starts a growling gargling yowling and when he wants out a yip wants in a short bark.

he has faces of disgust when I run out of bacon a happy face when he sees me and a sad

face when i scold him.

my other dog has different emotions and faces as well as calls

he scratches to be let in and stares at you to be let out if you are asleep he paws you

he only barks at things in the area of the yard if he need attention like a

scratch he jumps on the couch if another animal is in the yard he has a high pitched bark

or attacks them and then there is snarling and growling and biting so you know hes got something.

 

so I do not have any idea where you say they do not have emotions or expressions

all my animals I listed previously had there "ways" if your in tune to make them

comfortable you can pick up on these traits rabbits well they hop and twitch stand

on their back legs and if pissed make a ack sound and hunch up and have there head

down back against the rear of their cage and ears back.

 

no I do not know anything about animals I just try to make them comfortable......

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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Of course your right, what I meant was:

 

Genesis 1:26

King James Version (KJV)

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

thank you for clearing that up my friend. for a moment there i was begining to wonder. i knew with all the better posts you have made that i just didnt think i was reading you right or you didnt type it right, or it didnt come across the way you intended.

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I think this topic is very interesting and I see that most people agree that they would take a well trained dog. Well instead of thinking about only taking the trained dog, or leaving your dog behind because it's not trained, why not train your dog now?

I've helped train dogs to stop barking ect and it takes time but there IS a way.

There are great online resources you can use to train your dogs.

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I think this topic is very interesting and I see that most people agree that they would take a well trained dog. Well instead of thinking about only taking the trained dog, or leaving your dog behind because it's not trained, why not train your dog now?

I've helped train dogs to stop barking ect and it takes time but there IS a way.

There are great online resources you can use to train your dogs.

 

trained or untrained, hes Gods animal and ive been choosen to look out for him. so that being said, hes in the boat with me,us my family, as my family.

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This whole thread has had me thinking about my wife's cats. I don't have a dog tho I want one and will be getting one when we retire and move. Now, we have 2 cats. I'm not particularly fond of a cats tho we "get along". Now, if SHTF, and I am forced to make a moral judgement about the cats that wouldn't be that difficult. But, if I had a dog, I cannot imagine a situation where I would give up on him/her. That's a degree of moral relativism that I didn't know was a weakness. Hmmmm.

Edited by MikeE

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Cats in a boat {not a ship} in a storm with rain somebody's gonna' need shots

and band aids LOL

 

well a dog trained or not have a 6th sense so just for that they should be kept around

as they hear see and are more aware of their surroundings.

 

except my shitzu she was oblivious unless you rattled a bag or opened a box even if

you had a cookie setting out as soon as you bit it her eyes popped open and would

stare at you like a devil doll /dog unblinking eyes and if you tried to ignore her she

would bark until you coughed up her share.

 

I miss that crazy dog and was fearless had to get her off a German Sheppard

and killed a few possums and chased coons out of the yard and only weight 13 pounds

and hated her toenails being clipped.

 

I have another small dog now he is a terror and I rescued him as he was abused

and given to me, must have been a man because it took 3 months just to get him

somewhat comfortable with me once and a while he still gets jumpy but he knows

I wont hurt him finally.

he is my alarm system he hears anything in the yard and he is not a yapper when

he barks something is around my other dog is a dummy I am still working with him

and working and working LOL

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