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Kountry Boy

Realism AR vs. AK

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I know before hand that this thread is gonna stir up an opiniated hornets nest, but let's be real......

 

I jus read the sectional parts of "the survival carbine" and I can't believe that almost all of the comments left afterwards in each section were based on which model has the best velocity and mechanical advantage associated with the caliber. Folks, my question is why would u want to attempt a 300+ yrd shot when the "enemy" is probably unaware of your presence? Shooting at them at that distance is drawing unnessecary attention IMO. No matter what gun or caliber you have, your attempting a potentially fatal shot for both them and yourself and I say yourself because if you miss, you just made some new enemies that could very possibly be more equipped to exterminate you rather than the other way around. So my question is why even bother? If they are unaware of your presence, why let them know where you are? Especially, given there are more of them than you, you may get the (1) shot (1) kill shot, but to what cost to you when the rest discover that you may be alone?

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A couple of thoughts:

 

1) There is some sense of security in distance. If the shot is necessary, then 300 yards it is. Especially if you can assure you won't miss. You have 300 yards to escape and evade.

 

2) I think some of it may be testosterone as well.

 

JMHO

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At the range I practice at the longest shot you can take is 180 yards,with my old eyes that is quite a challenge. With my scoped rifles I could take a 300yd. shot, but to me that would have to be a desperate shot, so unless there were no other options I wouldn't take that shot.

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The cost out weighs the benefits of the scenario IMO. Never would I allow myself to get trigger happy on a target(s) at such a distance and possibly jeopardize my well being. Come on people, get real!

 

From my experience a long distance shot is more calculated and usually involves less shooting that something up close when people begin to "spray lead" versus make a good shot. So it can be cheaper.

 

IMHO I would rather make a long distance shot and safely evade than an up close battle b/c either way "they" know you are out "there" so farther away might be safer.

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I agree and disagree. I would not take that shot unless deemed absolutely necessary, pretty much if they were travling in my direction and I had nowhere to go. Pretty much any other reason to take a long shot in a survival situation is not a good idea in my book

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Exactly. The article was about what to consider in considering an AR as a survival rifle and everyone was throwing out their own personal experience developed pros and cons to the AR carbine and how its would suffice as a 300+ yard head buster rather than its effectiveness towards a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenario. Im not saying that Self defense should be ignored with this weapon, it just surprised me that it turned into a debate over the maximum kill factor in yardage and how it would perform at such a distance.

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Long and short their is no comparing the AR to a AK. They are in no way in the same family. First it should be a M16 not the AR. But the M16 was not made to kill. It was made to Mame and to overwhelm the enemy hospitals to the point where they would have to give up. That is why they were 223. When the government saw the gooks weren't giving in to that , they came out with the offset round, A dimple in the back of the round that made it tumble and rip up a body. Made the kill numbers go up real quick. The bleeding hearts in the Government thought that was cruel so they stopped making them. I guess they still don't have them, Not sure if they went back to it or not.

 

The AK is just a all out killing machine, nothing else has to be said.

 

As far as a 300 yard shot, not sure about the AK but the M16 will make it. But again I'm old school, in the woods you can not see 300 yards so I don't have to make the shot.

 

On a personal note, Just for my personal thought at 300 yards away I don't know what someone wants, If I shoot them isn't that murder? If he's 300 yards away I have a lot of time to get away or put any on my things in hiding

 

again just my way of thinking

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I agree with Meddle, I don't think taking a 300 yard shot is to smart if you cant ID your target before you have this person meeting his maker....who know he may be out looking for food for this family he has hidden a few miles away. I would just watch and try to figure out what this person was doing.

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For me its about the ability to engage at different yardage.

My 22 mag is fine for 100 yards(Ground hogs in Pa.)but in Defence I may want to reach out a bit.Im getting a Mosen soon.

I will repeat,Defence..If Im going over 300 yards I have a set target that I have Identified and needs to be put down hard and soon.JMHO.

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OK, remember a large part of the Carbine debate was about the effectiveness of the various rounds and platforms. I like long range shooting. Billy Dixon was my hero (Quigly was patterned after Dixon)

http://www.juntosociety.com/native/adobewalls.htm

 

There are times when distance is appropriate and times when it isn't. If you're meeting another group on 'neutral' ground, I want my best shooter(s) covering my back. I'll want to meet the leader of the other group, solo; that provides some security against a trap. I'll suggest or agree to a spot that is out of range of a short range shooter BUT my long range shooter is my ace in the hole if the other guys are BGs.

 

I don't approve of "long range" shooting for hunting purposes unless desperate. If it takes the round more than about 1/2 second to get to the target, you run the risk of the prey moving enough to change a kill into a maiming shot. Not a good thing, even when TSHTF.

 

Since I don't see combat as a major part of survival scenarios, I also don't see sniping as a major part of the deal. That said, if you've repulsed an attack and the attackers are coming back, maybe stronger, sniping is a viable tactic.

 

The skill and ability to hit a target at more than 500 yards (Rifleman's Quarter Mile ) see http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ or http://www.lewrockwell.com/buppert/buppert14.html is the mark of a rifleman. That is, to me, a good thing; spray and pray is a lousy strategy in any situation accept, perhaps, a military unit with full auto and a solid resupply system. That is the reason the Army left the M14 for the M16. Lighter weight and more control when using full auto. Full auto in a survival situation quickly turns a gun into a club. Bad idea.

 

The skill that allows a rifleman to hit his target at 500 to 600 yards is the skill that makes a marksman who is able to take targets at any range. Aimed fire is the goal and I can do aimed fire with a lever gun as fast (almost as fast if the other shooter is good) as other guys can send aimed fire down range with their AR pattern carbine. The goal is an effective, first round that hits the target. I won't say NEVER (remember Billy Dixon) take the long shot, but I will say that it is highly unlikely to ever be needed. Of course, if you need to make that shot, you need to take it very, very badly. Just my not so humble opinion.

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Hello boys and girls

 

first the Phallicy / fallacy

 

AR kills period wounding is misinformation for the civilian masses as we have been politically correct

for quite some time

A 5.56 or 223 will go through a helmet like a hot knife through butter and is actually a 222 mag

it was reconfigured to be acceptable to NATO standards {NON MAGNUM}

and it does not tumble or whirl or anything else or it would not be accurate

the nature of a small light bullet is it follows the path of least resistance so you

can be shot in the wrist and it comes out your neck it's shok level wound channel is good

bone penetration good and we can carry more ammo less weight

and the wound factor against people who do not give a sh*t about the wounded sounds good

but in reality it does not work they don't care..

 

7.62x39 is equal to a 30-30 Winchester not exactly a powerhouse but no one with a brain is going to stand

in front of either one they are both KILLERS just look up the body count on any war

 

NATO does not allow the use of expanding ammunition like hollow points for humanitarian purposes

as the wounds would cause more deaths and horrible wounds not that standard ball wont

but it always could be worse so they say.

 

as far as to which is better well that depends a high quality AK like a Valmet is head and shoulders

better than a chicom pressed metal one and very accurate

AR well they were made to be a light weight platform both rifle and ammo but heavy barrels and addons

screwed that up.

 

the AR is a better over all rifle for quality and accuracy and it is pretty durable but nothing

is perfect a bullet or shrapnel strike can render a weapon inoperable.

 

everyone want to argue the benefits and gadgets some are very good

some not the problem with the thinking we got the best is we fail to look at other tech

the french bullet trap rocket propelled grenade no need to use a blank to fire like in WWII

we use the 40MM and I think we could do better a second weapon attached to a rifle

is a bit bulky and I like the bore to be the line of sight not under the barrel

 

I like the attached bayonet on the AK

but it you that counts do not let anyone make yours less attractive for some slight reason

as long as it is accurate and you like it who cares everyone yaks about umpteen hundred yard

shots and can't hit a beer can at a 100 yards or any moving target so if you can hit a orange

at a hundred yards then you can hit a kick ball at 2 and a basket ball at 3 hundred so

your good to go.

much of the crowing about brands and types is partially about ego and I got something you don't got.

it helps sell product and that's OK but for my money a 223 / 5.56 is a more available round

for the future most 7.62x39 comes from overseas all that has to happen is an embargo

so think about it if you got one stack back plenty and more

 

I have had many of both and money wise the AK is more affordable for those who are

on a budget... but the do make 5.56 223 models LOL

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I am just not a fan of the .223 round but I can appreciate the use and availability of it. I am planning on getting a different upper for the ar-15 to convert it into a 6.8 spc because I like the round more, but availability dictates that you have to keep the 223 upper around also.

 

In terms of distance and the long shot, it all depends on who and what the threat is. This for me will dictate the ar-10 vs ar-15 vs AK decision when SHTF and the need to bugout arises. If I have and can pack enough ammo it would be ar-10 or the AK, if I cant, .223 wins by default.

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Being someone that has been there and done "some of" that, "DON'T BE THE STUPID ONE THAT THINKS HE/SHE HAS TO CHOOSE" if it comes to grabbing a 223/5.56 or a 7.62 x 39 then grab one and start shooting at the bad guys. Please know how to use either one.

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Being someone that has been there and done "some of" that, "DON'T BE THE STUPID ONE THAT THINKS HE/SHE HAS TO CHOOSE" if it comes to grabbing a 223/5.56 or a 7.62 x 39 then grab one and start shooting at the bad guys. Please know how to use either one.

 

got that right Roper Pro AR, AK to a MADDI to a Walther just get some YEEHAAaaa

 

and if it quits shootin' tie a sharp stick on it and get to poking and

butt strokin'

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Snake,

A minor error sir.

NATO does not allow the use of expanding ammunition like hollow points for humanitarian purposes

That isn't NATO. That is the Geneva Convention passed after the horror of modern war hit home. We passed a law to make it 'less' horrible. There are times when we (we being our leaders) are idiots.

My bias is that anything less than a .30 is a tad light for some survival requirements. (It is a bias but I think it is truth).

I get a small amount of amusement from folks who think that the M4gery they are shooting is a "mil-spec" weapon. Odds on, it isn't nor is the variety of rounds that make the 5.56 acceptably lethal in many civilian applications legal for the military. You can be executed as a war criminal (you are, IN FACT, a war criminal) if you use expanding rounds in your military weapon in a combat zone. The problem with the 9mm round is that the FMJ in 9mm/.38 size is simply NOT the stopper that the military needs. That is why the .38 was replace by the .45 ACP a century ago. A hundred years later and we make the same stupid mistake we made in the 1890s just because the Europeans never learned the lesson.

I enjoy shooting 5.56. It is a fun round and the AR pattern rifle is fun to handle and with properly chosen rounds it will do a great many things well. For reasons I've posted in many places, I don't trust the precision made and fitted AR pattern rifle when my life is on the line (I much prefer rugged to precision in that case) nor do I think the 5.56 is enough round against large game/predatory animals. I'd be happier with a .45 ACP pistol/carbine combo (or a 30-30 lever gun) than with a 9mm/5.56. Yes I know I'm giving away a couple hundred yards in effective range with the .45 Carbine but I think in a survival case the .45 is the more capable combo, at least in my part of Texas, and the 30-30 gives nothing back to the AR in range and keeps the edge on effectiveness against large animals out to 300 yards. Plus with the money I save by NOT getting an AR, I can get other things I need for survival.

Again, just my not so humble opinion.

Edited by Capt Bart

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The main premise behind "prepping" is to be able to deal with the unthinkable, should it occur. Most of the previous comments center around whether they would take the 300yard shot or not. Rather lets consider that we should be ABLE to take the shot, and at the same time ABLE to decide if we should, in that unknowable situation. The AR and the AK are both useful tools....but they are not interchangeable.

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I' m with you on that devildog. Being prepared to take the shot if needed , and being able to decide if you should . I rather have a gun then no gun , or is it two is one and one is none ? .... I think I heard that before ......

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Being someone that has been there and done "some of" that, "DON'T BE THE STUPID ONE THAT THINKS HE/SHE HAS TO CHOOSE" if it comes to grabbing a 223/5.56 or a 7.62 x 39 then grab one and start shooting at the bad guys. Please know how to use either one.

 

this,I have both and practice with both.

 

there is no one magic caliber, use what you have and learn what you own.

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Being someone that has been there and done "some of" that, "DON'T BE THE STUPID ONE THAT THINKS HE/SHE HAS TO CHOOSE" if it comes to grabbing a 223/5.56 or a 7.62 x 39 then grab one and start shooting at the bad guys. Please know how to use either one.

 

Roper,

well said, sir. If you have never handled an AK the odds are very good you will not know how to take the safety off. Hint: it is on the right hand side and is a lever with a small ridge designed to look like you're supposed to put your hand there to move the lever from safe to fire but it is actually there to put a 3/4 inch gash in your hand when the incredibly stiff lever doesn't move! Done that more that once and I was expecting it! Know how to use as many weapons as you possibly can - you never know when some new (to you) weapon might save (or cost you) your life.

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got that right Roper Pro AR, AK to a MADDI to a Walther just get some YEEHAAaaa

 

and if it quits shootin' tie a sharp stick on it and get to poking and

butt strokin'

 

Snake,

do you know if they even still teach bayonet drill? I doesn't take a sharp pointy thing on the end to execute a well done 'vertical butt stroke' and that little move will certainly rattle some eyeballs loose if done correctly. I just don't know if it is still taught.

Any of you newer infantry types know want to enlighten us?

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The main premise behind "prepping" is to be able to deal with the unthinkable, should it occur. Most of the previous comments center around whether they would take the 300yard shot or not. Rather lets consider that we should be ABLE to take the shot, and at the same time ABLE to decide if we should, in that unknowable situation. The AR and the AK are both useful tools....but they are not interchangeable.

 

Well said, sir. Very well said indeed.

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Snake,

do you know if they even still teach bayonet drill? I doesn't take a sharp pointy thing on the end to execute a well done 'vertical butt stroke' and that little move will certainly rattle some eyeballs loose if done correctly. I just don't know if it is still taught.

Any of you newer infantry types know want to enlighten us?

 

No Capt Bart I have not asked, come to think of it

 

I am old school but butt stroke with a pistol grip is not as effective as with a M-14

 

now that's when you want a 7.62 x 51 of course the bayonet lunges are a bit DEEP

 

if ones not careful and obscures the front sight something terrible.

 

and I always worried that the recoil tube on an M-16 would break if not a

straight stroke, and end up with no butt at all.

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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