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awake

So what would you do?????

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So you're blaming the gay community for AIDS, and the AIDS epidemic for the medical insurance problems in this country? That's extraordinarily short-sighted and, well, flat-out wrong, justcallmesnake.

 

Statistically, diabetes is having a MUCH bigger impact on the US - nearly 26 million Americans have it (as opposed to 1.2 million with AIDS/HIV), and 79 million Americans are considered pre-diabetic. According to the CDC, nearly 16,000 people died of AIDS in 2008 (most recent year they had statistics), whereas in 2007, diabetes was listed as the underlying cause on 71,382 death certificates and was listed as a contributing factor on an additional 160,022 death certificates. This means that diabetes contributed to a total of 231,404 deaths.

 

According to the CDC, it is estimated that health care costs for chronic disease treatment account for over 75% of national health expenditures. After adjusting for population age and sex differences, average medical expenditures among people with diagnosed diabetes were 2.3 times higher than what expenditures would be in the absence of diabetes, which is why it's difficult for you to get insurance - and it's not like someone who is HIV-positive is having an easy time of that, either, since their meds are awfully expensive.

 

You appear to assume that healthcare expenses have gone up since the 1980s due to there being HIV/AIDS, but that's incredibly narrow in scope. Compare rates of obesity among the population in 1985 versus today. Then think about the diseases and conditions (often called comorbidities) that come with obesity - diabetes, heart disease, cancers, strokes, high blood pressure, etc. - and think of all of the expenses *that* adds to the healthcare system. Add into that the move away from HMOs and preventive-focused medicine and to PPO systems (where patients pay a copay/% of cost with every visit), which causes some of them to avoid routine care and only seek treatment when a condition is so bad it requires extensive and expensive intervention. Medical costs have also skyrocketed due to the new treatments that are available, both in terms of surgeries and devices AND those ungodly expensive pharmaceuticals. And we are slowly becoming more accepting of people who seek treatment for mental health issues, which adds in even more treatments and drugs to the healthcare bill.

 

The way health insurance works - well, the way ALL insurance works - is that they need a mix of mostly healthy people who won't cost nearly as much as they pay in, and some people whose costs will far exceed what they individually pay. This creates what is referred to as a "risk pool," and when you're part of a risk pool that has a large number of unhealthy people - as the US does now - the overall charge for each person in that pool MUST increase simply so that the insurer can cover the costs of claims. The ONLY way to rein in costs without huge increases is to place limitations on who is covered and what services are covered - which, I think, is what you're frustrated by.

 

You ask why you should pay for three other people's problems... when in fact, your complaint is that three other people aren't willing to pay for yours, if you're diabetic.

 

It's capitalism at work, unfortunately. So unless we (oh no!) socialize our health care system further, we're going to have to accept that some people just aren't going to be able to be covered, or that some treatments/conditions won't be covered, or that somewhere along the line basic needs can't be met if bills are going to be paid.

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whoa there I am on your side

 

well my medications are only 22.50 for 90 days and diabetes is a pancreatic condition not an obesity

as so may have jumped on the band wagon.

and it could be a genetic condition it is not by "choice" I have diabetes and I have gone for over 54+

years without any condition so do not worry they won't be paying for me too long that $22.50

 

so your saying only fat people have diabetes, heart problems, cancer, strokes and high blood pressure.

so I guess all the beautiful people just die from boredom or suicide well i guess they are related.

and drug use yes I seem to hear and see in the news all those slender folks have a drug problem

I guess they might have been obese and got tired of it being such a burden on the system and all.

 

 

like I say i am just trying to help and understand .

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Well, JCMS, I'd say that your argument that AIDS = gay people is about the same as stating that diabetes = obese people. And I didn't state that obesity was the ONLY cause of ANY illness, I was simply giving you another explanation for the rising cost of healthcare that was somewhat more realistic than saying that, basically, gay people are keeping you from getting health insurance. In fact, I cited several reasons:

 

* Rising lifestyle-related chronic conditions (i.e., obesity that leads to diabetes, heart disease, et al)

* Medical advances and procedures that are more expensive

* Ever increasing numbers of high cost pharmaceuticals

* Less access to/use of preventive medicine to stop small problems from becoming major ones

* Treatment for more illnesses and conditions, including mental health issues

 

FWIW, the little twist you did there on what I said versus what you responded to is becoming a classic bait and switch technique in politics. It's actually called a "Straw Man Argument" or the "Straw Man Fallacy," where since you can't refute the person's true argument, you "rephrase" their argument by shaping it into something similar but different and then point out why that revised position is foolish.

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

 

It's a little disingenuous.

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rising lifestyles related chronic conditions = promiscuity

 

medical advances and procedures that are more expensive x-rays and blood tests are basically the same

they can write off equipment for 3 years just like any other business

 

the cost of aspirin is the same as it was the day before it is your money that has become worth "less"

 

less access to preventive medicine you cannot prevent anything has crime gone away have

people quit dying have accidents quit happening NOOoooooooooo.

 

and fat people are no more susceptible to dying that thin because if that were true more coffins would be

sized large, x-large,, xx-large and OMG and priced accordingly.

 

mental health is related to what drugs and bad life choices creating stress from past mistakes

and the arrogance of self.

true mental Illness is not too common now psychologists want everything to be an illness

because it is a cash box some psychologists do not agree with your assessment I know a few

and they are as welcome as ants to a pick nick among there colleagues.

it was about 20 years that the association of psychiatric's assembled in New York and stated

that a 14 year old was mature enough to make the decision on consensual intercourse. LMAO

that was a big DEAL that turd stunk for a year it was on T.V. radio and they backed off or

limped off people were withdrawing their support of research and funding hospitals it was

a black mark on them for years.

now no one remembers

 

50 years ago gay meant metal illness now because it's acceptable, when you have no grandchildren

to look after you and your family line disappears then you will understand why it happened FYI .

You need to look at the movie "THE DETECTIVE" with Frank Sinatra 1968 not that long ago.

and you will see how we used to see gays and promiscuity and murder.

 

I rephrase the argument because the left has turned it around first everyone who is doing or have done

something "WRONG" want to turn it around.

the bank robber because he is poor {but won't work}.

the drug dealer because he did not have the "opportunity for better"

the hooker because she was abused {and gets more abuse and worse}.

the liar because they were afraid someone might misunderstand them.

The Adulterer because they did not get what they needed at home {but were to ashamed to asked}.

the glutton because of some past disparaging treatment and lack of self esteem :not their fault}.

the aborter because they could not afford a child {and not a condom either apparently}

and what can I say about the murderer they got hundred of reasons {the gun accidentally went off}

 

yea I have heard the sad sad story a thousand thousand times and the innocent dead do not

have a voice because it has been silenced.

I remember a 8 year old murdered by a person I had to deal with him he got along fine with

the folks in the punk tank.

and there are plenty of gays in prison if they are so happy why is that???????

in fact that point actually involved them and placed them in the situation to get imprisoned.

 

Pride cometh before the fall, pride is doing what "you want" versus what is right always

has and always will be a negative added to an already tough life.

 

you probably do not believe in spanking or the death penalty or public condemnation,

so no punishment so how are we as a nation supposed to gauge right and wrong.

I know we will get a dart board and label the sections and anyone who has a "problem"

can just throw a dart.

Hey it's cheaper than years of therapy and medications if you KNOW your right then it is no problem.

it only make your life BAD if you think your wrong.

we could do away with courts and children's protective services and even probation or prole,

sounds NIFTY save all kinds of money and we could make all drugs and prostitution legal

no more stigma or hiding or having a record were all just one big happy family

 

(I am not against cancer or dying patients having any drug by the way it is up to them}

that was just to be sure i would not get a unnecessary rebuttal on that topic.

 

Am I innocent hell no do I know right from wrong yes so I try to do better everyday and that

does not mean I will not do it again just I do not B.S. myself into thinking it's right

 

No one is beyond repair or redemption it's just they have to be willing and WE accepting

self destructive behavior of any sort is not going to help anyone.

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Ah. This was more the sort of mindless, illogical nattering I had expected, where actual facts are countered by supposition, ranting, making gross generalizations, arguing against your assumptions of me/liberals, etc. I'm sorry to see it show up now. But we had a good run, and that's worth celebrating!

 

Enjoy your rage, JCMS. I'm going to heed the wisdom in the old saying, "Never wrestle with a pig. You both wind up dirty and the pig likes it."

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Snake,

I am also a diabetic type II. Brought on by my south east asia tour. According to the VA the govt. will give you a small token monthly and free meds to those who served in certain areas of south east asia, and for Agent Orange exposure. I have applied for my pennies but still have not received a response at this time. I know how you feel.

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oregonchick,

I'm not sure you are a progressive/liberal in the mold of the modern progressive. I'm not going to argue politics; I will point out a couple of things. First we already have a clear, firm delineation of what the Feds can do and what only the states can do. It is called the constitution and is simply being ignored. If that is ignored, then no additional law will fare better. The biggest problem with your gun control scheme is the problem with most things, education, health care, drug enforcement etc. That problem is "who decides"? You might trust this administration but what about the one after or the one after that? It is almost impossible to take power away from a government. That is what we are trying to do now and it is demonstrably difficult. Most Americans say they want smaller, less intrusive government but it is tough to figure out how.

I agree that we probably don't want me to have a nuke on my dining room table. That isn't covered by the second amendment but what about a .50 BMG? I think it is covered. I also disagree about keeping ex-convicts from owning firearms. If they have "paid their debt to society" by what right do we keep them from exercising the full citizenship that liberals say they have? If they can vote, why can they not own a gun? As for minors, last time I checked the constitution, that was a power left to the state. Just like the way the fed has nationalized education with things like 'No child left behind' (a warm fuzzy name for a very poisonous bill) government always seeks to increase its power. Trouble is, "government" is even Washington. It is mid-level functionaries like me who can ruin your life with no accountability except my own conscious that has been formed by the government schools. Just remember, Nationalized health care has been a disaster everywhere it is being enforced. Do you really want ME deciding who lives or dies?

When you say something should be done a certain way, nation wide, you are saying that the government should take, by force, more of my rights to accomplish some goal. The problem is, historically, most of our troubles are the result of government action. I have little faith that more of what caused the problem is the solution to the problem.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

 

 

very well said once again Capt Bart. the problem with any kind of gun control is that is goes against the 2nd amendment. and yes "felons" is a using a broad brush to paint who cannot own a firearm since with our laws in this country it is very easy to become a "felon" for a lot of reasons. so yes i do believe that once your debt is paid to society whether warranted or not in the first place then you should be able to have a fresh start in all aspects of life including being able to purchase a firearm, just because you are a felon does not mean you do not have a right to defend yourself or that of your loved ones just like the rest of us. as far as the federal government running the show for gun control. that is a disaster waiting to happen. we need less federal control and more state control. remember the constitution is the stop-gap for states overreaching their authority. the federal government should be there to enforce the constitution not trample it.

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1) Thank the Food companies for all the chemicals thay add to to our food....Oh and don't forget to thank them for all the empty calories in the form of corn based sweetners. The term at the turn of the century was I'm fattening up the hogs for market. Now we are being fattened up to support the food, drug and medical companies. A good doctor is hard to find and is job scared because he or she knows that treating the people the way they need to be treated will land them in the unemployement line too.

2) Thank the Drug companies for all NEW drugs....that cost more and don't work any better that the ones they replaced. Clinton let the cat out of the bag a few years ago when asked why can someone in Africa buy this drug for 50 cents but it costs 5 dollars in the States......"gotta make a profit somewhere"

3) Thank the people for their unwillingness to do what they need to do. It is true ... An idiot is anyone who keeps doing the same things that they were told would kill them and expecting it not to happen.

Will things change ...... No.... should you and I concern ourselves with those unwilling to change.....only to the extent of doing what we can to prevent them from damaging us and our people. Just as Romney said... I cannot change those who are sucking from the public tit so we will focus on those undecided individuals. (please do not miss-understand this...we owe our vets and maybe we owe retirees but we don't owe professional politicans and professional welfare check drawers squat.)

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