Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
juzcallmesnake

Let's get into the weeds "STOPPING POWER"

17 posts in this topic

Let's get into the weeds "STOPPING POWER".

Stopping power is as elusive as a albino whale  although we know they exist or have or, will again is a useless fact if your searching for one spending your own money and time.

Then there are the arguments that the world is flat or X caliber is more able  then the world is round as all calibers have performed and accomplished one shot stops..... so what is it,  well it it's part fact a bit of fiction mixed with magic pain and fear.

The human body cannot function beyond certain limits like nerve damage lack of oxygen or clinical death. All of these factors take time from a split second to minutes, minutes you may not have in an altercation or would have if you could have the time to analyze the instant replay and be able to act on it. 

The reason why I am so pro 2nd amendment is obvious once seen through the lens of lets say Afghanistan once people do not have options of hand weapons they will do like Theodore John Kaczynski or the Unibomber or even the lowly kitchen knife as was used in China on a many occasions where one person killed more than many shootings here all you have to do is type in, "knife attacks in china" and a whole list will pop up.  So do knives have stopping power ?  yes they do but unlike a bullet it is very hard to "test" but I can assure you that stabbing weapons do stop people in their tracks in many cases like bullets they have to do damage to vital organs as well as inflict pain enough to "stop" the individual from being able to function.

So lets do the math or NOT !  because this is where fuzzy math has been contorted to 3 dimensions to explain something that it is not able to in any situation as all are totally different, unique and quite unable to be explained except after by a intense investigation and or an autopsy.

We all know or should that 357 magnum has had more ability to stop attackers over any other caliber but if you just take that and not dig deeper you will miss the competing factors such as bullet weight barrel length and other statistics like clothing thickness bullet type weight and distance of individual shootings.  More important is survival of the victims and yes there are survivors, some use catheters others need a bag to crap in stuck to their side others are in wheel chairs or cannot function to 100% of their previous ability.  Does this mean they did not effect their mission of injuring or killing others ? The answer is NO NO and sometimes.

Think of a body in 3 dimensions moving in all directions as so are the organs not fixed in space, this is why center mass is he approved aiming point it takes the largest area and asks you to focus and try to place all your shots in it, thats it !  This is part probability part lawyer foo and all guess work that the shooter is capable of hitting a bull in the azz with a bass fiddle ! under stress fear and never having been in a potentially lethal confrontation in their lives.

On the attackers side many are accustom violence or have a long list of violent crimes or worse have used violent tactics against weaker individuals with such success that they feel embolden so they have no fear or understanding that someone will or can attempt to stop them in essence bullies like the guy in Missouri that strong armed robbed a convenience store and then assaulted a police officer and then was shot dead by that same officer after the subject turned and attacked like he was Godzilla attacking Tokyo --- why,  because he had used that tactic before brute strength and bully tactics that had worked before.  That is the psychological condition of man, our go to option is what we know has worked in the past.  Now consider a person that has zero experience and fills that lack of experience with -- you got it hearsay fables STORIES.  Facts on the other hand are confusing and will not bring confidence up at all.  I am sure that the lady that went up to her attic with her children and shot the home intruder in the face was either 5 or 6 times and he didn't die is awestruck that he did not stop after the first shot and still survived, after all in the movies they throw a sheet over people shot in the head just once don't they ?

Let us also look at fanatical and psychopathic attacks they are not as rare as one might think but the war in the Philippine Moro's  (mooslims) was where the U.S. found that 38 was not a man stopper and opted for a .45ACP everyone forgets that the round was full metal jacket or the velocity is not best for expansion but in this case using it on full grown people of no more than 120 pounds it worked another fact is that they (Moro's ) wrapped / bound themselves with strips of cloth like a mummy and got all psyched out before an attack -- nothing like natural endorphines  and testosterone fueled with religious hatred to start your day.  and we have all heard of the doped out of their minds attackers even the police have problems in taking down and this is fact and a lot of luck on the dope heads part on here got shot 17 times by numerous officers and lived and still had to be tackled by officers-- notice PLURAL more than one.

In the event of an attack by a religious or doped up individual, Your azz is grass no jury with an overzealous prosecutor is easily going to accept your story that you had to shoot 15 times and reload and this may sound sexist but unless your a female although women shoot better than men generally speaking.  Remember the state is not going to investigate beyond the fact you shot someone it's your lawyers responsibility to put up a defense, remember that so you better hope there is video and your lawyer has the sense of mind to know that find it and exploit it for your benefit.

The reason for the civilian to carry is to defend themselves -- now think that through, it does not mean for you to defend against the golden horde and it is on your part INSANE if you think your able to take on a group of individuals with long arms IMHO it may play well in the press that you died with your boots on heroically your battered body numerous wounds last gasp yada yada yada PRAY you die because if you live you will be blamed for everything since the civil war and god help you if you accidentally shoot a bystander in any situation. Once you pull a gun your liability NEVER ENDS at least recklessly discharging a firearm and a blot on your record and up to murder either by one of these Murder, Manslaughter or Justifiable Homicide. Please note that all of them means you killed someone and some will always equate it just that way.

Statistics prove -- nothing,  people have been killed with a pellet gun 25acp and old 32 caliber pocket revolvers some were even rimfire  that are known anemic calibers.  is there some magic balankee we can find solace in as far as a handgun and not fear the consequences of using it ---the answer is NO, there will be consequences in either way if you carry don't carry use it or just forget you have it and get arrested in the wrong place like a school property and I know about all the stories that people have been let off because yada yada but that is not always law but an effort of the local legal system not to ruin a particular person that does not say they won't make you an example !

To pocket pistol or not to pocket pistol or even a tiny derringer, if you work in a antigun company or a place where carry is a definite firing offense but still know it is not an option for yourself as you have a threat against you this may be your only choice.  Companies are willing to sacrifice individuals for their own beliefs or rules because they are not legally responsible if they could be charged or sued because of their rules it would be another matter entirely IMHO.

Because of my surroundings I have NOT carried, in some instances I have decided to carry a pocket version and others full size,  full power with a long gun backup shotgun or rifle. That is why we have all the variety and because people come in all different sizes shapes weather / event appropriate clothing and professions.  I like that corporations are protecting themselves like sports coliseums with metal detectors but once you leave like one man who had his children with him was attacked and beaten to death by a couple of competing sports fans found out once outside the venue your a victim waiting to happen.  I am sure his children appreciate the fact that all those people in the stadium were safe from firearms even though they were forced to  watch their father get beat and stomped to death.

Think outside the box, I hear that and know it is a load of sh*t   97% of people don't.  There are real reason why people carry just as much what they carry and between brow beating from the dwindling numbers of pro 2nd amendment full size carry ONLY and the fear of the legal system or their employer people that should don't.

Every time I hear of a rape murder or kidnapping I wonder how many criminals would be dead or jailed instead of someone being victimized and how many that would eliminate from being future victims. How many times have we seen or read that the felon has done this repeatedly and has been in and out of prisons, a fact that fails to penetrate the parole boards and justice or might ai say injustice system. it is a self fulfilling perpetual machine criminals re-offend the system makes more money they can't pay but the tax payer does so they get a check any way it goes. the criminals have children who because of not having a 2 parent home have a greater chance of becoming a criminal themselves their parent has to for the most part depend on social services like welfare and food stamps help with rent and medical at the expense of again the tax payer who subsidizes the evolution of the criminal from birth to death and even in death we foot the bill for an autopsy and burial as does anyone really think these types care or spend money on insurance or a burial policy ? and what about their children ? we are saddled with all the responsibility and no accountability as in do they spend the money on food and how well are their children doing in school or if the parent is on drugs OH HELL NO ! that is an invasion of privacy but, if your in the military you do not have the luxury of privacy or in corporate employment try being a pilot and not getting drug tested or a truck driver. 

people cannot tell the difference between most common calibers fired from a pistol some can differentiate rifle shots from a pistol BUT any criminal can figure out there is a gun in play that is not their own and that scares 99% of them silly and once the pain of a bullet strikes them the fight or flight response kicks in and them leaving is as good as stopping or dead as it terminates the incident for you, if they live and escape that may mean they target someone else to get away but that can happen with any caliber the proof is people survive war wounds and some still managed fight on.

Stopping power caliber or arguments thereof will never be settled and in some cases after the fact we can see it is true that a longer barrel larger caliber could have made a difference that is still dependent on the individual and their ability. That being said a Glock 40 all shots fired and none striking the criminal in a crowded mall or parking lot is scary as hell to me,  more so than a loose purse snatcher IMHO.  You see everything has to balance the incident the place situational reasoning is as important as the reason to use a firearm or not. 

In the movie Crocodile Dundee, he is in New York sees a purse snatcher grab a purse takes a can from a passing persons grocery bag and hurls it hitting the criminal in the head retrieves the purse and is the hero   BULLSH*T in New Yuck he would be arrested for theft (of the can good) injury with a weapon as now the can is a weapon and probably attempted murder as the strike was to the criminal now victims head plus he was running and no longer a threat and the actor (thrower of the can) was never in jeopardy of injury or loss of property and the list goes on.  TV and Movies have screwed this culture up worse than drugs. New cop shows make you believe that if your not guilty you will talk to police if you lawyer up your guilty or have something to hide that is ignorance on both sides of the screen and the first thing your lawyer will ask is, "what did you say" because in the moment and excitement witnesses will have different versions but your words no matter if taken in or out of context can bury you.

Why all of this post on caliber because it is not the gun the incident caliber it is the outcome the court or the grand jury that people need to get, the Monday morning quarterbacking scenario target rich environment of the incident itself as you can win the gun battle and do life in prison for killing a bystander save dozens in a mall and cause or kill one child and the horror will not go away. this is life it is messy filled with lawyers courts and prisons and choices shoot or not live or die it's not so easy and caliber is the least of considerations for the civilian IMHO.

 

 

MATT HELM and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....I believe stopping power is not so elusive, it is inside the barrel of the weapon you feel the most comfortable firing. The one with the weigh, feel, recoil, angle of the handle and sight alignment that just puts holes in things everytime you pull the trigger. Stopping power comes from familiarity with and confidence in the steel (....ok... Or polymer...) in your hand.....with in reason of course. Love your .380 all you want but I'd rather be shot in the chest with a .380 then anywhere with a .500 S&W.

juzcallmesnake and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not rather get shot (again) or ever get shot at (again) period.  While some people may tote a .500 S&W, the reality is that the majority of the thug demographic, doesn't even have access to a handgun in that caliber. Most homicides in this country are in caliber .22LR, .380 ACP, or 9mm. (See FBI-DOJ Uniform Crime Report-annual)

This should not be interpreted as these are "the" ne plus ultra fight stoppers. It simply means that at the time the trigger was pulled, at some point in time, the "victim" died from the administration of the bullet/s. While no caliber can be an instant fight stopper, the first rule of any gunfight, is HAVE a loaded gun. The second rule, equally important in my personal book of truth, is to not get into a gunfight in the first place.

I carry legally because I've seen evil and know that it continues to flourish and exist everywhere in spite of my best efforts to avoid it like a politician. If all you have is a .380, it's better than a stern look, or a pencil.

wally, juzcallmesnake and DonDon like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/30/2018 at 9:13 PM, DonDon said:

....I believe stopping power is not so elusive, it is inside the barrel of the weapon you feel the most comfortable firing. The one with the weigh, feel, recoil, angle of the handle and sight alignment that just puts holes in things everytime you pull the trigger. Stopping power comes from familiarity with and confidence in the steel (....ok... Or polymer...) in your hand.....with in reason of course. Love your .380 all you want but I'd rather be shot in the chest with a .380 then anywhere with a .500 S&W.

OK i will concede 500S&W has stopping power but then its ballistics is equated to a 12 ga slug so for my post i should have defined the caliber to standard compact pistols although some are to heavy to carry day in and day out. i prefer a pocket model with a minimum of 6 rounds and up to 9 or 10 for 22 LR

wally likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My EDC is a 9mm +p, 6 rds of Corbon Powerball behind a Bellot FMJ 124gr "police load" I have a few of left,  they are 1150fps in a 124 gr.  this I feel gives me if not good enough stopping power....at least sufficient dissuade power..... I also sometimes carry a small .22 lr 6 shot revolver, at close enough range you get to add the powder charge (burn and pressure) to the bullet damage and when "snub" firing a revolver is the only way to go as the contact with someone's body can cause auto loaders to fail...especial if the grab for them.

juzcallmesnake and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wandering around on the Internet and found an interesting article on stopping power, it appears to me to be non-bias only uses actual shooting data.  This also gives how many people were shot how many hits and how many fatalities and much more information that I have seen cited in a single article on this subject.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power Friday, July 08, 2011 by Greg Ellifritz

Considering weight and capacity of a decent reliable pocket pistol they are neither anemic or useless especially when you look at the incapacitation chart in the article.  and it also includes rifle and shotgun that shows them to double most all the data of incapacitation one shot stops and death, but we all know rifles and shotguns are much better than pistols as far as power.  but as cited in a previous post certain home clearing and tactical uses the pistol has it's merits.

I am not trying to debate to carry or not or the better caliber only the simple fact that access to a firearm of any kind in a life or death situation is paramount to survival.  Many shootings and robberies are stopped by the firing / noise of a shot not always is it a strike but never never fire a warning shot for legal as well as a host of other reasons.

I hope Mr. Ellifritz will forgive the use of his chart I ask all to verify my post by going to Buckeye Firearms Association web site link above, why because the Internet is so full of misinformation. I have no interest in wining a conversation with false facts or innuendo it is more important that people are armed and in that criminals are in fear and not the decent public IMHO.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Incapacitation.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While we are here and velocity plays an important part in stopping power, I was amazed to see the disparaging differences even within a single caliber.  My research did produce a few winners .357 mag .41 magnum and 44 magnum when compared between a 4 inch barrel and a 16 or 18 inch barrel carbine.  Otherwise I can see much benefit except concealment over a 4 to 5 inch pistol  compared to carbine length rifles in any other caliber if there is any doubt go to Ballistics By the Inch  here is the web site   Ballistics by the inch tables for 2 to 18 inch barrels

To my surprise the least contender for improvement was the 10MM  velocity wise.

I do ask people to also go to gundata.org for bullet drop chats by caliber here is the link   Gundata.org bullet drop charts by caliber

Comparing the bullet velocity and bullet drop gives you a reasonable assumption  of the range and power on a flat trajectory.  Although not a given but a good marksman could effectively use a carbine out to 3 MOA and for the magnums is out to 125 to 160 yards.  Out of personal interest I looked up 9MM and it appears that @ 100 yards had a bullet drop of 12 inches and flat trajectory was only out to 35 yards give or take from there it went quickly south so anyone using a 9MM carbine would have to be very aware of range to maintain accuracy, even with a bullet drop optic you could count on mental calculation in a time of crisis might be a tad difficult IMHO.

DonDon and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bullet placement trumps size  and velocity , in my past professional experiences. However, I’ve personally witnessed more than one violent suspect, take a 12 gauge round (00 buck) to the chest and leg it off like a scalded gazelle.  That was eye-opening as a young rookie copper, who then realized that scrawny little thugs don’t always fall to the death ray 12guage.  Besides, our FTOs made us go find ‘em....(story for another time and venue).

wally likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

00 buck is actually not that effective as individual projectiles, somewhere around a .32acp, but it's the numbers that count....basicly an 8 (drunk) man firing squad, you might be lucky....you might not...but on the subject of stopping power, I don't believe I'll ever seen someone that don't stop in their track at the sound of a 12 ga being racked...s-s-s-chunk.....s-s-s-chunk and anybody still moving probably has bad intentions.

wally likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DonDon, I’ve seen a few, thankfully, only a few, miscreants, that accelerated thier FelonyFactor15 fleeing speed, when a racking shotgun was “presented”, during different felony traffic stops. In spite of the helos overhead, numerous uniformed armed officers and deputies on scene, decided that flight, was THE preferred response. This was incredibly frustrating to all assembled, because it meant, that a.) the rookies got to engage in the foot pursuits, and b.) we were going to have even more paperwork to do, once the fleeing lads were captured, cuffed and stuffed. So, no, do not be misled by the screenwriters musings on screen, that humans actually respect the sound of a pump action shotgun.  The thug demographic can tell from their street experience, who is willing to pull that trigger and who is not. It’s part of their Criminal Curriculum in Corrections Class rooms.

So, never even bluff, you might get that shotgun inserted into a place you want like and it will hurt even worse coming out. And no, I’ve not had that experience either. (Fortunately)

Standard 2 3/4 inch 00buck Shot shells have 9 .32 caliber pellets! Which do not spread much farther than a 1/4 inch every 20 yards, IF, you are lucky. Making multiple holes in the soft tissue causes body hydraulic fluid loss, which causes incapacitation, sometimes, immediately. Most of the time, not. Slugs do cause instant incapacitation in humans in every instance I’ve seen them employed both from law enforcement side of the House, and responding to crime scenes. I load both buck and slugs in my shotguns, alternating, for effectiveness. (If needed) Better to  be safe, than sorry.

MATT HELM and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....as I said...anyone still moving probably has bad intentions. I have fortunately never had an opportunity to have someone run, but it is my experience that a racking shotgun causes everyone in ear shot to stop and pay attention. Never dealing with it in a "pressure" situation of course, and as a non-LEO them running would be in theory  my preferred action for them over actually having to center mass them, if them running isn't an option they will not have time to think on the sound of the slide as a split second after that action goes to battery I will be slapping the trigger. Obviously one would never count on someone doing the intelligent or sane thing in a life or death situation.

wally likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

racking is stupid, the damn thing ought to have a shell in it to begin with.

 bit of background on shotshell loads read the box low recoil and reduced loadings are not for defense 9 pellets is minimal and as TPSnodgrass and DonDon have mentioned nothing is impossible people are resilient and dope makes them almost superhuman. 

I do not like ammo that has been loaded down to the lowest ability shooter a good load is high 1100 FPS it gets ridiculous after 1400 FPS you get nothing for nothing if it has power it kicks there are some remedies like a dead mule recoil reducer mercury reduction tubes or weight the stock with loose lead shot  a good recoil pad like a Kickeze (sorbothane foam)  some shotguns have options of a different barrel with options like interchangeable chokes and barrel lengths all of these help in pattern control and recoil I do not like a pistol grip on a shotgun but thats me.

reloaders need to check out a Pagoda load if you want the shot to hang in there. One of the secrets is not to slit the shot cup or slit it very little, people that bad mouth the Pagoda load are ignorant to its simplicity.  A shotgun is not a magic wand it must be patterned to understand it's ability and like all weapons the ammo is a key component in accuracy and every shotgun has it's own personality. the same ammo in 10 different shotguns will soot differently in most all of them.  A department or an individual ordering ammo for all or because of cost is a bean counter and does not understand ballistics of a shotgun.  You can get away with rifles and pistols as they can be sighted in with adjustable sights or sight adjustments. basically a shotgun is a critter of it's own it can fire more types of projectiles including chemicals and destructive elements some shoot flat other have a rainbow trajectory , experience is the only teacher my advice is to stick with a known slug, shot or a third that you have knowledge in a specific shotgun.

Low or high brass is no indicator of power ZERO ZILCH NADA except maybe by companies that use that as some kind of indicator but then there is a scale withing there loadings. for low recoil to kills on both ends. It costs more for high brass hulls although they are no longer brass but coated steel, for the most part.

best to take butcher paper and fire at 15 yard intervals with different brands of buck, slugs or shot you intend to use. the saying buckshot rises is somewhat true but not absolute.

choke well there is another variable tighter choke tighter pattern up and to a point and distance and gun.  there is a difference as to pellet hardness hard shot or superbuck deforms less so it patterns tighter than soft lead as soft lead deforms and less round more deflection.  Again patterning is the only true test, this is also where people need to decide where they want their optimum patterns distance. if your a hunter that is different than a person who's only interest is defense.

Ammunition is somewhat like fishing lures design and advertisements are to catch the buyer real world testing in your shotgun is the only valid test some slugs shoot like a rifle others may not hit paper at long distances and generally speaking 100 yards is about the farthest for most mortals.

Shot depending on density of the shot, size and muzzle velocity play a big part of distance,  bird shot looses velocity quick I would never use birdshot for defense minimum to my mind is BB and #4 I like lead shot #1 works as well close in and as a hunting load but regardless your shotgun must be patterned.

Just because it looks like it will fly means crap or that it is exotic some designs are better most that shoot good are those that have a plastic tail this acts like a windsock self righting the slug so it does not yaw or roll / tumble but again they must be tested.

I had a friend that knew more about shotguns and shotgun loading that anyone alive but you can get most all that information and a long list of ammo from ballistic products.

One to look for is Winchester Super X 12ga. #1 buck 16 pellet 2 3/4   I won't go into it but I only buy 2 3/4 shells.

 

wally likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...for my home defense shotgun actually me racking is a decision to go (more)lethal. I load #8 trap, #6 trap, #4 3", 00, slug, slug, slug all thru bore choke 18" at the distances in my house the decrease penetration of the 6 and 8 shot thru walls is worth the decrease wound depth (but still full shot weight) while I get my bearings amoung the five sleeping kids and uninvited guests. I have drilled far well enough that I am very confident in my ability to cycle very quickly and accurately a whole tube in a few seconds if the need arise. I use the "one...and...two...and...three...and...four...." Cadence in my head so seven rounds in what should be 3 and 1/2 seconds but ends up being just north of 4.....by any standard a reasonable amoung of stopping power for anything from cautious theft, to angry meth head.

juzcallmesnake and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....mind you....after running running one of those drills (usually on a few empty two liter bottles on the ground) I usually let out a low slow oooouuuuccch....and you are for sure stunned a bit yourself.

juzcallmesnake and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At indoor distances a wad holds the shot together so it can make it through 2 sheets of 1/2 inch sheet rock .  everyone here knows to keep their butt down nose to the floor, all that running and screaming to and fro is good movie antics but accomplishes nothing.

DonDon and wally like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recent Topics

  • Posts

    • Mini bikes are great on gasoline consumption, my view of them is that they lack the height clearance if one is heading into the woods, if their is a path / trail then your fine, not so easy to move around if one is heading into virgin bush forest areas. One of the areas I enjoy heading into Canada is Crown Land, where I’ll see at most is  about 1/2 a dozen folks in there, & that’s on a gravel road at best. Most people don’t dare going deep into uncharted areas of Crown Land,  that’s where I like going to explore the wilds of the land. No humans to deal with , just me & Mother Nature. From my evaluation of things , a dirt bike / dual sport / enduro motorcycle would be best suited to the terrain. Oh ATV’s will not cut it, deep in the heart of Crown Land / The Queens Land . In my guesstimation, less than 1 % of the Canadian population actually know where Crown Land is. Their are no-posted signs stating that your in Crown Land & I like it that way.
    • The simplest answer is an old mini bike, one with a magneto fired brigs and Stratton engine....but these are actually harder to find and more costly than one would think for as many of them were around when I was a kid, but any magneto fired bike would be a good start as they are as simple of an electric system as there is and the components are very durable.
    • I’ve looked at a used ZERO MX model at a motorcycle repair shop, that the owner purchased new in 2010, he’s willing to let it go for around $2500 Canadian. I have it on hold for me, until the end of the month. He says that it takes 3 hours for the battery to charge from almost empty to full charge.  I did ride it , it’s not as fast as the newer 2018 models. This used one will hit 55mph / 85kph ,still quite fast for a electric dirt bike.  I’ve poped wheelies with it, the torque is there if needed. It was a fun ride even though it’s used. The only maintenance is oiling  the chain & sprockets & your good to go.  
    • Yeah I'll looked at them a few times. They don't say the battery capacity , but it plugs into a standard outlet(110vac 15 amp (Max)) and charges "overnight" ....so 8hrs(?) and that would include a full discharged battery...right? Then a few solar panels and invertor dedicated to charging it and you would have a 100km plus every few days. Yeah in a hard grid down a really must have.....
    • Anyone own one of these electric motorcycles? I did a test ride on one 3 day ago. Wow , they are fast  & very quite when  your moving along, Stealthy indeed. A viable option as a bug out bike, in a EMP event I’m guessing the bike is toast, unless it’s stored in a EMP cage Buying one new is out of the question, pricy like $8,000 US funds. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ca/zero-fx