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juzcallmesnake

Let's get into the weeds "STOPPING POWER"

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Let's get into the weeds "STOPPING POWER".

Stopping power is as elusive as a albino whale  although we know they exist or have or, will again is a useless fact if your searching for one spending your own money and time.

Then there are the arguments that the world is flat or X caliber is more able  then the world is round as all calibers have performed and accomplished one shot stops..... so what is it,  well it it's part fact a bit of fiction mixed with magic pain and fear.

The human body cannot function beyond certain limits like nerve damage lack of oxygen or clinical death. All of these factors take time from a split second to minutes, minutes you may not have in an altercation or would have if you could have the time to analyze the instant replay and be able to act on it. 

The reason why I am so pro 2nd amendment is obvious once seen through the lens of lets say Afghanistan once people do not have options of hand weapons they will do like Theodore John Kaczynski or the Unibomber or even the lowly kitchen knife as was used in China on a many occasions where one person killed more than many shootings here all you have to do is type in, "knife attacks in china" and a whole list will pop up.  So do knives have stopping power ?  yes they do but unlike a bullet it is very hard to "test" but I can assure you that stabbing weapons do stop people in their tracks in many cases like bullets they have to do damage to vital organs as well as inflict pain enough to "stop" the individual from being able to function.

So lets do the math or NOT !  because this is where fuzzy math has been contorted to 3 dimensions to explain something that it is not able to in any situation as all are totally different, unique and quite unable to be explained except after by a intense investigation and or an autopsy.

We all know or should that 357 magnum has had more ability to stop attackers over any other caliber but if you just take that and not dig deeper you will miss the competing factors such as bullet weight barrel length and other statistics like clothing thickness bullet type weight and distance of individual shootings.  More important is survival of the victims and yes there are survivors, some use catheters others need a bag to crap in stuck to their side others are in wheel chairs or cannot function to 100% of their previous ability.  Does this mean they did not effect their mission of injuring or killing others ? The answer is NO NO and sometimes.

Think of a body in 3 dimensions moving in all directions as so are the organs not fixed in space, this is why center mass is he approved aiming point it takes the largest area and asks you to focus and try to place all your shots in it, thats it !  This is part probability part lawyer foo and all guess work that the shooter is capable of hitting a bull in the azz with a bass fiddle ! under stress fear and never having been in a potentially lethal confrontation in their lives.

On the attackers side many are accustom violence or have a long list of violent crimes or worse have used violent tactics against weaker individuals with such success that they feel embolden so they have no fear or understanding that someone will or can attempt to stop them in essence bullies like the guy in Missouri that strong armed robbed a convenience store and then assaulted a police officer and then was shot dead by that same officer after the subject turned and attacked like he was Godzilla attacking Tokyo --- why,  because he had used that tactic before brute strength and bully tactics that had worked before.  That is the psychological condition of man, our go to option is what we know has worked in the past.  Now consider a person that has zero experience and fills that lack of experience with -- you got it hearsay fables STORIES.  Facts on the other hand are confusing and will not bring confidence up at all.  I am sure that the lady that went up to her attic with her children and shot the home intruder in the face was either 5 or 6 times and he didn't die is awestruck that he did not stop after the first shot and still survived, after all in the movies they throw a sheet over people shot in the head just once don't they ?

Let us also look at fanatical and psychopathic attacks they are not as rare as one might think but the war in the Philippine Moro's  (mooslims) was where the U.S. found that 38 was not a man stopper and opted for a .45ACP everyone forgets that the round was full metal jacket or the velocity is not best for expansion but in this case using it on full grown people of no more than 120 pounds it worked another fact is that they (Moro's ) wrapped / bound themselves with strips of cloth like a mummy and got all psyched out before an attack -- nothing like natural endorphines  and testosterone fueled with religious hatred to start your day.  and we have all heard of the doped out of their minds attackers even the police have problems in taking down and this is fact and a lot of luck on the dope heads part on here got shot 17 times by numerous officers and lived and still had to be tackled by officers-- notice PLURAL more than one.

In the event of an attack by a religious or doped up individual, Your azz is grass no jury with an overzealous prosecutor is easily going to accept your story that you had to shoot 15 times and reload and this may sound sexist but unless your a female although women shoot better than men generally speaking.  Remember the state is not going to investigate beyond the fact you shot someone it's your lawyers responsibility to put up a defense, remember that so you better hope there is video and your lawyer has the sense of mind to know that find it and exploit it for your benefit.

The reason for the civilian to carry is to defend themselves -- now think that through, it does not mean for you to defend against the golden horde and it is on your part INSANE if you think your able to take on a group of individuals with long arms IMHO it may play well in the press that you died with your boots on heroically your battered body numerous wounds last gasp yada yada yada PRAY you die because if you live you will be blamed for everything since the civil war and god help you if you accidentally shoot a bystander in any situation. Once you pull a gun your liability NEVER ENDS at least recklessly discharging a firearm and a blot on your record and up to murder either by one of these Murder, Manslaughter or Justifiable Homicide. Please note that all of them means you killed someone and some will always equate it just that way.

Statistics prove -- nothing,  people have been killed with a pellet gun 25acp and old 32 caliber pocket revolvers some were even rimfire  that are known anemic calibers.  is there some magic balankee we can find solace in as far as a handgun and not fear the consequences of using it ---the answer is NO, there will be consequences in either way if you carry don't carry use it or just forget you have it and get arrested in the wrong place like a school property and I know about all the stories that people have been let off because yada yada but that is not always law but an effort of the local legal system not to ruin a particular person that does not say they won't make you an example !

To pocket pistol or not to pocket pistol or even a tiny derringer, if you work in a antigun company or a place where carry is a definite firing offense but still know it is not an option for yourself as you have a threat against you this may be your only choice.  Companies are willing to sacrifice individuals for their own beliefs or rules because they are not legally responsible if they could be charged or sued because of their rules it would be another matter entirely IMHO.

Because of my surroundings I have NOT carried, in some instances I have decided to carry a pocket version and others full size,  full power with a long gun backup shotgun or rifle. That is why we have all the variety and because people come in all different sizes shapes weather / event appropriate clothing and professions.  I like that corporations are protecting themselves like sports coliseums with metal detectors but once you leave like one man who had his children with him was attacked and beaten to death by a couple of competing sports fans found out once outside the venue your a victim waiting to happen.  I am sure his children appreciate the fact that all those people in the stadium were safe from firearms even though they were forced to  watch their father get beat and stomped to death.

Think outside the box, I hear that and know it is a load of sh*t   97% of people don't.  There are real reason why people carry just as much what they carry and between brow beating from the dwindling numbers of pro 2nd amendment full size carry ONLY and the fear of the legal system or their employer people that should don't.

Every time I hear of a rape murder or kidnapping I wonder how many criminals would be dead or jailed instead of someone being victimized and how many that would eliminate from being future victims. How many times have we seen or read that the felon has done this repeatedly and has been in and out of prisons, a fact that fails to penetrate the parole boards and justice or might ai say injustice system. it is a self fulfilling perpetual machine criminals re-offend the system makes more money they can't pay but the tax payer does so they get a check any way it goes. the criminals have children who because of not having a 2 parent home have a greater chance of becoming a criminal themselves their parent has to for the most part depend on social services like welfare and food stamps help with rent and medical at the expense of again the tax payer who subsidizes the evolution of the criminal from birth to death and even in death we foot the bill for an autopsy and burial as does anyone really think these types care or spend money on insurance or a burial policy ? and what about their children ? we are saddled with all the responsibility and no accountability as in do they spend the money on food and how well are their children doing in school or if the parent is on drugs OH HELL NO ! that is an invasion of privacy but, if your in the military you do not have the luxury of privacy or in corporate employment try being a pilot and not getting drug tested or a truck driver. 

people cannot tell the difference between most common calibers fired from a pistol some can differentiate rifle shots from a pistol BUT any criminal can figure out there is a gun in play that is not their own and that scares 99% of them silly and once the pain of a bullet strikes them the fight or flight response kicks in and them leaving is as good as stopping or dead as it terminates the incident for you, if they live and escape that may mean they target someone else to get away but that can happen with any caliber the proof is people survive war wounds and some still managed fight on.

Stopping power caliber or arguments thereof will never be settled and in some cases after the fact we can see it is true that a longer barrel larger caliber could have made a difference that is still dependent on the individual and their ability. That being said a Glock 40 all shots fired and none striking the criminal in a crowded mall or parking lot is scary as hell to me,  more so than a loose purse snatcher IMHO.  You see everything has to balance the incident the place situational reasoning is as important as the reason to use a firearm or not. 

In the movie Crocodile Dundee, he is in New York sees a purse snatcher grab a purse takes a can from a passing persons grocery bag and hurls it hitting the criminal in the head retrieves the purse and is the hero   BULLSH*T in New Yuck he would be arrested for theft (of the can good) injury with a weapon as now the can is a weapon and probably attempted murder as the strike was to the criminal now victims head plus he was running and no longer a threat and the actor (thrower of the can) was never in jeopardy of injury or loss of property and the list goes on.  TV and Movies have screwed this culture up worse than drugs. New cop shows make you believe that if your not guilty you will talk to police if you lawyer up your guilty or have something to hide that is ignorance on both sides of the screen and the first thing your lawyer will ask is, "what did you say" because in the moment and excitement witnesses will have different versions but your words no matter if taken in or out of context can bury you.

Why all of this post on caliber because it is not the gun the incident caliber it is the outcome the court or the grand jury that people need to get, the Monday morning quarterbacking scenario target rich environment of the incident itself as you can win the gun battle and do life in prison for killing a bystander save dozens in a mall and cause or kill one child and the horror will not go away. this is life it is messy filled with lawyers courts and prisons and choices shoot or not live or die it's not so easy and caliber is the least of considerations for the civilian IMHO.

 

 

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....I believe stopping power is not so elusive, it is inside the barrel of the weapon you feel the most comfortable firing. The one with the weigh, feel, recoil, angle of the handle and sight alignment that just puts holes in things everytime you pull the trigger. Stopping power comes from familiarity with and confidence in the steel (....ok... Or polymer...) in your hand.....with in reason of course. Love your .380 all you want but I'd rather be shot in the chest with a .380 then anywhere with a .500 S&W.

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I would not rather get shot (again) or ever get shot at (again) period.  While some people may tote a .500 S&W, the reality is that the majority of the thug demographic, doesn't even have access to a handgun in that caliber. Most homicides in this country are in caliber .22LR, .380 ACP, or 9mm. (See FBI-DOJ Uniform Crime Report-annual)

This should not be interpreted as these are "the" ne plus ultra fight stoppers. It simply means that at the time the trigger was pulled, at some point in time, the "victim" died from the administration of the bullet/s. While no caliber can be an instant fight stopper, the first rule of any gunfight, is HAVE a loaded gun. The second rule, equally important in my personal book of truth, is to not get into a gunfight in the first place.

I carry legally because I've seen evil and know that it continues to flourish and exist everywhere in spite of my best efforts to avoid it like a politician. If all you have is a .380, it's better than a stern look, or a pencil.

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On 1/30/2018 at 9:13 PM, DonDon said:

....I believe stopping power is not so elusive, it is inside the barrel of the weapon you feel the most comfortable firing. The one with the weigh, feel, recoil, angle of the handle and sight alignment that just puts holes in things everytime you pull the trigger. Stopping power comes from familiarity with and confidence in the steel (....ok... Or polymer...) in your hand.....with in reason of course. Love your .380 all you want but I'd rather be shot in the chest with a .380 then anywhere with a .500 S&W.

OK i will concede 500S&W has stopping power but then its ballistics is equated to a 12 ga slug so for my post i should have defined the caliber to standard compact pistols although some are to heavy to carry day in and day out. i prefer a pocket model with a minimum of 6 rounds and up to 9 or 10 for 22 LR

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My EDC is a 9mm +p, 6 rds of Corbon Powerball behind a Bellot FMJ 124gr "police load" I have a few of left,  they are 1150fps in a 124 gr.  this I feel gives me if not good enough stopping power....at least sufficient dissuade power..... I also sometimes carry a small .22 lr 6 shot revolver, at close enough range you get to add the powder charge (burn and pressure) to the bullet damage and when "snub" firing a revolver is the only way to go as the contact with someone's body can cause auto loaders to fail...especial if the grab for them.

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I was wandering around on the Internet and found an interesting article on stopping power, it appears to me to be non-bias only uses actual shooting data.  This also gives how many people were shot how many hits and how many fatalities and much more information that I have seen cited in a single article on this subject.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power Friday, July 08, 2011 by Greg Ellifritz

Considering weight and capacity of a decent reliable pocket pistol they are neither anemic or useless especially when you look at the incapacitation chart in the article.  and it also includes rifle and shotgun that shows them to double most all the data of incapacitation one shot stops and death, but we all know rifles and shotguns are much better than pistols as far as power.  but as cited in a previous post certain home clearing and tactical uses the pistol has it's merits.

I am not trying to debate to carry or not or the better caliber only the simple fact that access to a firearm of any kind in a life or death situation is paramount to survival.  Many shootings and robberies are stopped by the firing / noise of a shot not always is it a strike but never never fire a warning shot for legal as well as a host of other reasons.

I hope Mr. Ellifritz will forgive the use of his chart I ask all to verify my post by going to Buckeye Firearms Association web site link above, why because the Internet is so full of misinformation. I have no interest in wining a conversation with false facts or innuendo it is more important that people are armed and in that criminals are in fear and not the decent public IMHO.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/sites/buckeyefirearms.org/files/publicfiles/Ellifritz_Incapacitation.png

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While we are here and velocity plays an important part in stopping power, I was amazed to see the disparaging differences even within a single caliber.  My research did produce a few winners .357 mag .41 magnum and 44 magnum when compared between a 4 inch barrel and a 16 or 18 inch barrel carbine.  Otherwise I can see much benefit except concealment over a 4 to 5 inch pistol  compared to carbine length rifles in any other caliber if there is any doubt go to Ballistics By the Inch  here is the web site   Ballistics by the inch tables for 2 to 18 inch barrels

To my surprise the least contender for improvement was the 10MM  velocity wise.

I do ask people to also go to gundata.org for bullet drop chats by caliber here is the link   Gundata.org bullet drop charts by caliber

Comparing the bullet velocity and bullet drop gives you a reasonable assumption  of the range and power on a flat trajectory.  Although not a given but a good marksman could effectively use a carbine out to 3 MOA and for the magnums is out to 125 to 160 yards.  Out of personal interest I looked up 9MM and it appears that @ 100 yards had a bullet drop of 12 inches and flat trajectory was only out to 35 yards give or take from there it went quickly south so anyone using a 9MM carbine would have to be very aware of range to maintain accuracy, even with a bullet drop optic you could count on mental calculation in a time of crisis might be a tad difficult IMHO.

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Bullet placement trumps size  and velocity , in my past professional experiences. However, I’ve personally witnessed more than one violent suspect, take a 12 gauge round (00 buck) to the chest and leg it off like a scalded gazelle.  That was eye-opening as a young rookie copper, who then realized that scrawny little thugs don’t always fall to the death ray 12guage.  Besides, our FTOs made us go find ‘em....(story for another time and venue).

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