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juzcallmesnake

Copper leaf idea of plating of bullets

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We all know about gold leaf a super thin apply by a brush easy as falling off a log.

WELL they make copper leaf my intension is to copper leaf or as it can be called gild some cast lead rifle bullets I have gas checks but lets face it if lead bullet makers can plate bullets just how much thickness is required to protect the bore from leading ?

The melting point of copper is 1,084.62 degrees now I understand that the thin leaf will not melt but be impregnated into the lead as it is softer I "think" that a double layer of leaf should protect the bore from leading up to reduced loads per C.E.Harris load information or "THE LOAD"  basically outlines the use of 10 to 13 grains of red dot (NO FILLER) or similar pistol powder behind a mid weight bullet in medium bore cartridges, If your going to try this down load and read carefully all the information it is simple but you need to understand and use the information correctly IMO.

Shortcut to: C.E. Harris, The load article online   The load

Another good read the book, "Yours Truly Harvey Donaldson" a lot on cast bullets

Many people are "stealing" or floating the ideas with thier own spin and that is fine but give the originators their due and not act as if they produced the idea IMHO.

Gas checks are about 40+ dollars a thousand with  shipping  that is getting pricey, I have fired tons of plated 22LR bullets  at velocities of about 1,500 FPS and that is about the velocity of a reduced load cast bullet  and I think you could drive them faster depending on cast bullet Brinell hardness of your lead bullet alloy I would venture that a 12 or higher would form and hold gilding well enough to leave the bore and not leave lead fouling and that is the concept NO gas checks no specail tooling.  I am considering hair spray or watered down Elmers glue  as a base medium apply the gilding and spray with hair spray lightly to fix  hold it or keep it from rubbing off when loading and handling, this is for bullets to be made and used in a short time and you only have to gild the bearing surface and bullet base not the entire bullet or the bands and you could still use Alox lube or bullet lube as it would only help not restrict any reloading principle of cast bullets all I am trying to do is eliminate leading and save on alloy as lead bullet alloy has become very expensive and wheel weights are now steel or some trash metal and not lead Commiefornia is trying to make lead illegal I guess for individuals hell it is no crazier than gold was made illegal to own from the depression until the 1960's .

I have thought to gild from 1 layer to a few layers and see how it works in a carbine 16 inches or full length rifle barrel 20 to 24 inches

Reduced loads have plenty of killing power for medium game out to 150 yards and in most parts of the country with trees and brush that is about right.

Consider 12 grains of powder instead of 30 to 50 grains of rifle powder and a cast bullet costing pennies over ones costing 50 cents each.  roughly that is 3 times more hunting ammo for your money and you can make it as you need it at home have your alloy pre-made a 2 hole mold a few tools one is a bullet ladle it has a 3/4 ball with a nipple to funnel the lead into the mold it is not for casting in bulk but a couple hundred is no problem and a hand propane torch and a small cast iron lead pot sold from many reloading suppliers  I have copper leaf and it is not expensive it is so thin it will leaf your finger but that is all I think is needed maybe a few layers but still the combination one against the other should act as a heat sink and not allow one or the other to melt or skid I do see where a proper cleaning of your bore after each session but that is normal procedure after shooting IMO.

This is in the theory process and I am now going to try it but as I don't have time to go to shoot I am hoping others take this idea and run with it and post results retrieval of bullets and information on those appearance and the bore condition as well as cleaning would all be appreciated and add to the knowledge base for those interested.

I have also considered dusting powdered copper over a wash of thinned Elmers glue or even hair spray as affixantand  the nose and ogive does not need to be covered as it is not in contact with the bore at any time the base needs to be covered as the heat from ignition can melt or vaporise enough to lead the barrel but as I stated the lead and copper should insulate long enough to target beyond that and accuracy I do not care and has no bearing (pun intended) on accuracy whatsoever as we are only considering 150 yards not 1000 yard match shooting.

My advice is to cut copy and paste the below articles then print for your reloading or survival notebook as over time it has become harder to find this information and web bots could sweep the net and make it vanish we have freedom of speech not online presence or topics or tweets political correctness enforced by draconian corporations can edit or remove topics that do not conform or idealized by the storage owner of email or topics written on the web.

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Compliments of dromia from another C.E.Harris article

One of C.E. Harris articles

Cast Bullet Basics For Military Surplus Rifles

By C.E. Harris Rev. 9-6-93



Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical

field ranges with military battle sights than do full power

loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that

shoots a foot high at a hundred yards with surplus ammo when the

sight is as low as it will go!



Do NOT use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up the excess

empty space in the case. This was once common practice, but it

raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes

to chamber ringing. If a particular load will not work well

without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions

of loading.



Four load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for

the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges

to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which

provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any post-1898

military rifle from 7 mm to 8 mm:



1. 125-gr., plainbased "small game/gallery"

900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.



2. 150-gr. plainbased "100-yd. target/small game",

1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent.



3. 150-180-gr. gaschecked "200-yard target"

1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grs. of #2400 or equivalent.



4. 180-200-gr. gaschecked "deer/600-yard target"

1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grs. of RL-7 or equivalent.



None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle

cases such as the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7

Jap, 7.62x54R or .30-'06. They can be used as basic load data in

most modern military rifles of 7 mm or larger, with a standard-

weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the

7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in

the 8 mm. For bores smaller than 7 mm, consult published data.



The "Small Game or Gallery" Load



The 110-115-gr. bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20

Winchester, such as the Lyman #311008, #311359 or #311316 are

not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a

readily-available .30 cal. cast small game bullet of the proper

125-130-gr. weight. LBT makes a 130-gr. flat-nosed, GC bullet

for the .32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I

recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver!



The "100-Yard Target and Small Game" Load



I use Mattern's plainbased "100-yard target load" to use up my

minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire 100-yard

practice. I substitute my usual gaschecked bullets, but without

the gascheck. I started doing this in 1963 with the Lyman

#311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-

lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most of my rifle shooting is done

with these two basic designs.



Bullets I intend for plainbased loads are blunted using a

flatnosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat which

makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes

them from my heavier gaschecked loads. This makes more sense to

me than casting different bullets. Bullet preparation is easy.

I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross

defects into the scrap box for remelting. Bullets with minor

visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without

sizing, and are used for plain-based plinkers. Bullets which are

visually perfect are sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain used for

200 yard matches. Gaschecks pressed onto their bases by hand

prior running into the lubricator-sizer.



For "gaschecked bullets loaded without the gascheck," for cases

like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and .30-'06 I

use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning pistol powder,

including, but not limited to Bullseye, W-W231, SR-7625, Green

Dot, Red Dot, or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9

grains of medium burning rate pistol or shotgun powders, such as

Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British size or

larger.



In the 7.62x39 case use no more than 4 grains of the fast-burning

powders mentioned, or 5 grains of the shotgun powders. These

make accurate 50-yd. small game loads which let you operate the

action manually and save your precious cases. These

plinkers are more accurate than you can hold.



Repeated reloading of rimless cases with very mild loads results

in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless flash holes

are enlarged with a No.39 drill to 0.099" diameter. Cases which

are so modified must NEVER be used with full-power loads! ALWAYS

identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove

across the rim with a file and label them clearly to prevent

their inadvertent use. For this reason I prefer to do my

plainbased practice shooting in rimmed cases like the .30-30,

.30-40 rag, .303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive

headspace on the rim and are not subject to this limitation.



The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise



Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his "100-yard

target" load, because this was common with the lead-bullet .32-40

target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with

nongascheck bullets in military rifles at lower velocities

approaching match-grade .22 Long Rifle ammunition. I use my

"Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-1100 f.p.s. to replace both

Mattern's "small game" and "100-yard target" loads, though I have

lumped it with the latter since it really serves the same

purpose. Its report is only a modest pop, rather than a crack.



If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal

bullet stability, increase the charge a half grain and try again.

If necessary increasing the charge no more than a full grain from

the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy.

If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is more blunt and short

for its weight, because it will be more easily stabilized. If

this doesn't do the trick, you must change to a gaschecked bullet

and a heavier load.



The Workhorse Load - Mattern's "200-Yard Target"



My favorite load is the most accurate, Mattern's so-called "200-

yard target load". I expect 10-shot groups at 200 yards, firing

prone rapid with sling to average 4-5". I shoot high-

Sharpshooter/low-Expert scores across the course with an issue

03A3 or M1917, shooting in a cloth coat, using my cast bullet

loads. The power of this load approximates the .32-40,

inadequate for deer by today's standards.



Mattern's "200-yard target load" is easy to assemble. Because it

is a mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy

than harder ones such as linotype. Local military collector-

shooters have standardized on 16 grains of #2400 as the

"universal" prescription. It gives around 1500 f.p.s. with a

150-180-gr. cast bullet in almost any military caliber. We use

16 grains of #2400 as our reference standard, just as highpower

competitors use 168 Sierra MatchKings and 4895.



The only common military rifle cartridge in which 16 grains of

#2400 provides a maximum load which must not be exceeded is in

the tiny 7.62x39 case. Most SKS rifles will function reliably

with charges of #2400 as light as 14 grains with the Lee .312-

155-2R at around 1500 f.p.s. I designed this bullet especially

for the 7.62x39, but it works very well as a light bullet in any

.30 or .303 cal. rifle.

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From another source here is a copy of the load article

The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

By C.E. Harris, Revised 2-16-94

My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder has changed my
approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded
shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" My shooting is now
mostly high-power rifle. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice
offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't
want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but today is
$20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual
reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and
concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.
Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it
work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast
Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! Red Dot
is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It
occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle
powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red
Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental
double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" IS 13
grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger.
"The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within
certain limitations, which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for smokeless
powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they
necessary).

Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The
bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the
.30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the
8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65
Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70
(strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs.
is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I
have not tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in other
cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester,
.375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS and Lyman published data.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an
accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately
obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should
whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal
variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge
weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of
similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated
flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do
no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor
recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle
loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups
can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is
no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or
1600 with a 150-gr. cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's
deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys
(10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are
about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.

Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second, but "The Load"
starts to slow down in barrels over 28", such as the M91 Moisin-Nagant and long
Krags or 98a Mausers.

My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. of .22 backstop
scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft
"Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The
Load" drives soft- cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion,
but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and
kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when
placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The
Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast
bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr.
cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter
are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not
have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their
caliber.

The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities
than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in
the bore. The 85-gr. or 100-gr. Hornady or 90-gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R
Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100-gr. .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild,
but destructive varmint loads at 1600 f.p.s. from a .308 or '06.

If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet,
designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a
non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots
close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! A more accurate and
effective small game or varmint load uses a flat-nosed 150-gr. Page Ranking 170-gr.
.30-30 bullet instead. These don't expand at the 1400-1450 f.p.s. obtained
with "The Load", but their larger frontal area improves killing power compared
to roundnoses or spitzers.

I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for
cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I
use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight
groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72
or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can
be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice ion the Garand as well.
These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite
their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the
deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as
well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win.
barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06,
7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load
velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great
practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads
helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle
without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the
ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at
using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection
blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would
expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your
Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50
grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140
rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.).
Substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6
cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater
savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by
varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed
and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is
very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge
weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of
powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This
approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost
everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for
routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I
seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target
barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work
more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical
powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and
more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting
with 13 grains of Red Dot!

 

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