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debunking the shotgun myth

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shotgun has nothing like the effective range people "think" that it has, especially with standard loads and 20" riot barrels. The load starts at maybe 1400 fps and the round ball's horrific air resistance slows it to 1300 fps at a mere 25 yds. The 00 pellet weighs just 54 grs. So at 25 yds, it's hitting no harder than a 380 does at 10 ft, nothing to count upon, at ALL.  Moreover, there's no way that you can guarantee that a given buck pellet will strike in  given area, unless the range is so close that all the pellets will strike that area, which means 10 ft or less. :-)  At 20 yds, the riot gun's pattern is likely to be 20" wide, and it wont center where the "sights" (crude as they are) say it should, either. Furthermore, changing loads will change where the pattern centers and only the merest fluke luck gets your 00 pattern centered where your slugs are hitting. So you have to zero your sights (if they can be moved at all, of course) with the slugs, and "hold off" with the buckshot rds, which is a crock.

 

If you do the geometry, a 20 " OD circle has a 10" radius. Area = Pi (3.14) x the square of the radius. So a 20" circle has 314 square inches in it.  Divide 314 by 9 pellets and you get an average of 1 pellet every 35 square inches. the vitals average being a 10" circle (some men will be sideways to you, crouched, etc) A 10" circle has just  78 square inches of area. So you will get 2-3 pellets into the vitals at 20 yds. big effing WHOOP, right? and that's IF your pattern is centered on his heart, but it wont be. If you could reliably do that, you''d be using a rifle. You chose the shotgun cause you know damned well that you aint that good. you are a lot less good with $1 per shot slugs, as vs  25c per shot steel cased  223, too. especially if the 223 has a sound suppressor and you've practiced a lot with it using the .22lr conversion unit.

 

at 20 yds, the guy using cover offers only his head and shoulder as a target.  you can easily miss that sort of fleeting mark with a buck blast.  12 ga shells are 10 to the lb.  223  60 gr loads are 35 to the lb and they come in 30 rd box mags, with that same advantage of luminous sights, trigger job, .22 unit practice and 223 silencer making the full power rds just as "tame" to use as the .22 unit (without the silencer).  22lr rds are 100 to 135 rds to the lb, depending upon whether they are 36 or 60 gr bullets. 

 

The shotgun cant do the job of the rifle, nor the pistol. It's not concealable under normal clothing, or in the cars console,  it's not easily used with just one hand. and the shotgun has nothing like the range, mag capacity, silencer, mag-capacity, trigger job, luminous sights, GI rd, mags, parts, or concealment (taken down in a pack, or under a jackert that the shorty AR has.  So why waste time and money on a shotgun?

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there are and can never be, any effective silencers or flash suppressors for the 12 ga. The can has to be so damned heavy, to have any effect at all, that the sort of threads that hold on an interchangable choke are not adequte. So you need a special, extra thick barrel. the speed of sound is about 1080 fps, and shells vary a bit as to velocity, from shot to shot, with temperature and elevation above sea level. If you want to be sure of not getting sonic crack thru your silencer, you have to hold velocities down to 1000 fps. With such loads, birdshot has about the same effective range as a slingbow, ie, 50 ft.  Bird shot patterns will not share the same center POI as buckshot or slugs, either.  For shtf, how many each will you carry of slugs, buck and birdshot shells, hmm?  At 10 rds to the lb for the 12, you're not going to carry many. Do you consider 25 rds of rifle ammo plenty for a fight? Well then why would 25 rds of slugs amount to a hoot ,hmm?  You'll need the slugs if the range is greater than a lousy 20m, unless you've got a special choke or barrel. It's possible to make 3" 000 mag buck effective to 40 yds, in a long barrel, but then you lose the ability to hit multiple targets really fast at 10m and less. 

 

so you bust a rabbit at 20 yds, and then 10 guys hear it, know that you're stupid enough to have nothing but a shotgun, sneak up on you with AK's, AR's or .22lr autorifles and ,using cover, at 100 yds or so, plink you. What good did your wonderful slugs and buckshot do you, hmm?

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but you have to run and GET any longarm. If you have time to do all that, you could just run up and rip out the guy's larnyx. More likely, you'll be getting shot/stabbed/clubbed 4x per second while you try.  This is FAR more likely than the pistols not being 'enough gun" for home defense.  If it's enough for ccw everywhere else, why aint it enough at home, eh? you are far more likely to be attacked while away from home than when within it, by the way. I've had MANY confrontations while away and zero while at home.

 

the rifle belongs well hidden in your vehicle. That's where you're likely to need it (and the range and penetration advantage that it offers over the pistol or the shotgun.  In Miami, a one armed man with a Mini-14 killed 2 feds and wounded 5 more badly, by himself, with a bullet thru his other arm and his lung. One of the cops had a shotgun, too. :-) The feds completely missed him over 50 times  and then got 8-9 poor hits, until they executed him with 3 shots to his head and neck as he sat, bled out, unarmed in the COP's car, trying to flee after he subdued 7 of the 8 cops. the cop who hit him thru the arm and lung missed him another 14 times. the range for the cops was 7 yds and less. so, except for the 3 execution shots, all the other hits that the fbi got on platt were PURE luck! If you cant do it 11x out of 20 tries, it's the same as a coin-toss, pure luck, and the only got 1 (poor) hit for each 8 shots at that pos murdering, thieving punk. His buddy, matix, was hit in the head with a .38 in the first few seconds, never again held a gun, but was able to stumble to the cop car, with Platt's help. none of the .38's, going thru the windshield, was able to pierce the robber's skulls. they were each killed by a deflected bullet (from skull) down into neck.

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apparently you ain't from around here LMAO  I don't have to run anywhere to find a long arm. and a short one can grow right out of my wrist before anyone can say BOOM !

 

Police shooting ability is over rated I have too many range sessions watching "Barney" shoot the stanchions tray target hangars trolley lines and the floor.   In some states all a person can hunt with is a shotgun and it's funny but many of them limit out.

 

I have stated it before no weapon bullet or equipment means success training is good but real world experience is better if a person survives the experience.

 

Home invasions are not uncommon and there are too many dope heads wandering to be unarmed, many burglars operate in the day as night time there is no question in shooting them  many cruise neighborhoods looking for easy picking like stuff left in the yard,  open doorss on out buildings  some people steal cute or special breed dogs   the castle law is also in effect here so people here have options.

 

Guns are no substitute for good sense and keeping your eye on people / being aware if someone wants to murder they have the upper hand any victim has the unfavorable element to recognize and react tyo an attack.  many people I know have no neck so grabbing for a throat an almost nonexistent target is harder than it looks. knifes well that would have to be in hand and open because reaching would clue most off that their looking for something.

 

Security or safety is not guaranteed in this life death is certain as to how people die well that is another story.  Statistic are that less than

30 %  of people die from being shot but statistics show a single shot usually stops the attack 50% of the time a second shot is 90% effective in stopping an attack.  The occasion where a person would be attacked by a dope head is greater each day but still not common but if in that type of situation firearm retention and some alternative tactics if not running like hell is not out of the question,  mounting the head is illegal so unless you framed the police report and the new articles who would know ? Most decent people would shun a killer no matter if it was righteous so there is no up side to a shooting A D.A. can indict a ham sandwich so figure you could be in for a trial and that ain't cheap.

 

Getting into tussles fighting shooting is to be avoided to the extreme there is no up side in fact most cases are injuries and scars are a likely outcome most of the badazzes I know are dead. prison or graveyard. all this MMA and other crap is fostering a new realm of stupid people few fighters have a advanced college degree and after they are 50 if they live that long are long overdue for a dirt nap.

 

It does not matter where a person is from if they kill someone with a throat strike unless some serious weapon is found or evidence of a struggle of epic proportions someone will be fitted for a prison cell,  Juries are made up of people who have never fought or are too stupid to get out of jury duty and that is not a situation anyone would want to be IMHO.

 

serious engagements are in the less than 1% chances of happening and if a person gets into one it's a miracle or luck  if they come out alive but certain it will change them.

wally likes this

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If there's one thing I've learned from my use hunting and "tactical" shotgun classes I've taken, it's that the shotgun is a truly fearsome weapon in the hands of someone trained to use it. But you have to stay inside the envelope. 25-30 yards is about it for 00 buck, depending on choke. And lead foster-type slugs drop so quickly that at past 50 yards you really need to start worrying about "kentucky windage". Inside, defending a house, I'd rather have a 12 gauge with 00 buck, a drop pouch full of loose reloads, and a good sidearm than an AR, any day of the week. But you have to know how to properly reload, cycle the action, and change loads quickly. Just using your field 870 after bird hunting ain't gonna cut it.

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Drew,  Professionally I had to do the shotgun shuck load flip and hip shoot back in the day one hand load, cycle & shoot.

I make hard shot or  super buck for one individual that customs loads all gauges of shot shells one took a deer at 90 yards 1 pellet through the lungs.  is this normal no,  but it shows that a single pellet is noting to make fun of.

 

I like to mix things up 00 maybe #1 and #4 buck  I have a few BB on the sling for small game I don't shoot anything smaller than BB and only 12 gauge I have a .410 the only thing I shot in it are 9.3MMX74R cases to fireform for all brass shells.

Now back to patterning a shotgun, patients load and test different powder wad or gas seal I roll crimp eventually it all comes together.

 

Years ago a "spreader" or a duckbill the other was a muzzle looking break that looked like a ∞ / or infinity symbol and like a tooth on each side of center to split the wad basically it made the shot spread horizontally it was to your health  there are special shotguns with 14 inch barrels with long choke tubes that shoot like a 20 inch barrel pattern wise with proper shells.

 

Agila makes mini shot shells 1 3/4 inch long with buck shot moving 1,200 FPS  injury / lethality is where stupid people intersects projectile.

a projectile moving 550 FPS will penetrate deep enough to kill since a shot shell surpasses this threshold I feel it will perform past 40 yards because I have tested it. 

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Your the one! Drew

 

I like the 870 express  vent rib but I have a old wingmaster round barrel bored to 3 inch it's slicker than snot it has all the features pump action will load and eject shells that may be deformed without a problem where a semi auto may hang up.  Next it has a magazine tube that allows for addition of an extension without having to change the tube out so it is easy to convert back to a hunting shotgun.  Love the pushbutton safety index finger natural position for a right hand person. umpteen millions made accessories are almost endless parts a rar need for one are inexpensive and easy to find. dual action bars slick over all if a person does not accessorize it to death. for numerous reasons a person can load the butt with lead pellets add to butt stroking heft and personalizes balance  or even use a internal stock kick reducer,

 

my personal favorite adaption is the Choate Shotgun Forend model  CMT010202 and a synthetic butt stock not that I do not like wood but synthetic can handle more abuse.  all barrels are 18 1/2  cylinder bore and I can still turn in a good score on the skeet range. I am working on a bayonet lug :lol:

and I like the elastic 5 round stock shell holder very quiet. sling swivel silencers and heavy leather sling so it stays out of the way of the pump action   My shell holder has 2 slugs 2 #4 buck and 1 BB load the tube has 5 rounds of 00 buck

 

An acre is 208 foot square APP or 69 yards and I have no doubt at least one pellet will snag a large moving object with about 75 to 100 pellets from 5 shells  something is going to be limping home or taking a dirt nap.

 

When on a tractor or in another vehicle an 870 a good pistol and a ugly stick fishing rod you can hold your own

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buick-o-truth-5-shotguns-and-car-doors/

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at 5 yds, the riot gun with 00 buck has a pattern just 5" wide, so you can EASILY miss a man's torso with it at that range. The 12 ga is not even CLOSE to being as effective as nearly everyone "thinks' that it is. 

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inside the home, yeah, sure you carry that shotgun when you take out the pets, mow the lawn, answer the door, take out the garbage, get the mail, blah blah blah. No you dont, and we all know it. We also know that it takes several seconds to get across a room and snatch up a longarm. And if you had all that time, why not just run up and break his neck, eh?  The fact is,  you'll be lucky if you're able to draw a pistol in time, cause they'll have smashed their way in or snuck in and will be all over you in a couple of seconds. Joe Yablonski "thought" a shotgun under the bed was enough in his union-fight.  But he got shot dead by 4 guys with pistols.  Longarms are also very hard to keep ready while being secured. The ccw'd pistol is secure but can be in your hand in sub 1.0 second. the longarm doesn't mean a damned thing if you can't get to it in time.  That is a FAR more likely outcome than the pistol not being enough. But then, I'm a proven world class pistolero. Might not be true for lops who can barely tie their shoes.

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they'd not be talking to each other in the real world, cause they'd be unable to hear jack squat, detonating a 12 ga in a narrow corridor, without ear protection.

So true. :) 

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inside the home, yeah, sure you carry that shotgun when you take out the pets, mow the lawn, answer the door, take out the garbage, get the mail, blah blah blah. No you dont, and we all know it. We also know that it takes several seconds to get across a room and snatch up a longarm. And if you had all that time, why not just run up and break his neck, eh?  The fact is,  you'll be lucky if you're able to draw a pistol in time, cause they'll have smashed their way in or snuck in and will be all over you in a couple of seconds. Joe Yablonski "thought" a shotgun under the bed was enough in his union-fight.  But he got shot dead by 4 guys with pistols.  Longarms are also very hard to keep ready while being secured. The ccw'd pistol is secure but can be in your hand in sub 1.0 second. the longarm doesn't mean a damned thing if you can't get to it in time.  That is a FAR more likely outcome than the pistol not being enough. But then, I'm a proven world class pistolero. Might not be true for lops who can barely tie their shoes.

I believe Jeff Cooper (another "world-class pistolero") said "you use your handgun to fight your way to the long rifle" - or something to that effect. Of course you're not going to have a long gun with you at all times. For instance, Maine concealed carry law mandates that a citizen can only carry handguns concealed - so if you're out in public, you'll likely only have your concealed handgun. Gotta use it what you got and hope it's enough. 

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My experience is that all guns have a reason shotguns fill a niche between for small or close game and birds.

 

when one of the big 5 were wounded many times a guide with a backup man with a shotgun w/ slugs went after them

a 12 gauge slug produces 2,500 pounds of energy a 30-06 produces slightly more but this is apples to oranges big versus small impact now here is a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLvtEsI6l9U

 

One more reason to own a shotgun is even nations that have strict gun laws allow it's citizens to have shotguns but not pistols or rifles some allow rifles but not in military caliber such as 5.56 or 7.62X39 or 51.

 

The gun control issue will never be off the table EVER ! nor will all the other reasons to have a 3 gun set years ago I had no reason to care about personal carry always had because of the businesses I was associated with and kept a shotgun in my vehicle but I hunted with Rifle Shotgun and Pistol. 

 

Shooting shotguns trains the eye for fast movement and point shooting a lesson not taught in rifle shooting generally

so a person retards themselves by not learning another skill such as skeet trap or other shotgun sport or hunting.

 

As far as being a world class pistolero LMAO there are over 7 billion people and Wild Bill Hickok was shot in the back and many police recently were well armed had backup and were murdered so your better than all of them ?

What world ? the paper or steel target world or the battlefield world or gaming world Play station 4 -- how many times you been shot cut hit by a vehicle cracked over the head ? concussion explosive not head trauma.

 

Failing to realize there are other means of ending life and some are so innocuous you would never see it and when people think your bad they will take you on their level and not yours and if you harm the right person a family member may well plan on getting to you one of the most prolific murderers rarely used a gun, and many times he killed people in public and witnesses did not even know a murder was committed.

 

a firearm is a ways to a means to hunt to eat to survive or not to die without collecting a little pay back.  it has happened where people have killed their killer and then there is fate taking a hand bad position gun hand otherwise engaged misfire gun gets snagged or slip in the tub yea its all fun.

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they'd not be talking to each other in the real world, cause they'd be unable to hear jack squat, detonating a 12 ga in a narrow corridor, without ear protection.

What did he say, my ears are ringing.

Maybe learn to read lips or do the sign language, just might help.

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you'd need a 3" 12 ga mag to get  2500 ft lbs, from a slug. No Jeff was not a world class pistolero. He was barely a B class competitor, during his best days, and no he did not say that thing about the rifle. Clint Smith said it, and it's bs for anyone but an infantryman who is actually in a combat zone.  I knew Jeff personally and knew a LOT of guys who were with him for many years, like Kenny Hackathorn, Raul Walters, Dick Thomas, Gerry Gore. Ray Chapman, Mike Harries, Bill Wilson. The ones still living can tell you some REAL stories about Jeff. :-)  I am in this picture. I helped Jeff set up the IPSC.

 

http://www.ipsc.org/ipsc/columbiaconference.php

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so who says that the man will be fully exposed? who says that he'll be stupid enough to only have as shotgun or pistol, and not smart enough to use a rifle and cover, from 100 yds, eh? you imagine things going your way, that's your problem. why not just imagine that the gun will never be needed, while you are fantasizing?

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if the pocket 9mm aint enough, the shorty AR with silencer aint too much gun, either. and it is FAR more versatile/useful than any shotgun can ever be.  Look at any ballistics chart and you'll see that 12 ga slugs drop like rocks and drift in the wind like balloons. Rifle sights hurt a shotgun's performance for wingshooting, and a bead sight aint worth a damn for hitting cover using men beyond 30 yds, even if you do have slugs. What you gonna do, load it with every other rd buck and slugs, and waste one or the other with every other shot?   Do you know that different types of buck have different POIS (center of the pattern)? do you know that the buck wont be centered where your slugs are? what happens when your blasting of a rabbit calls in hostile riflemen, hmm? They can hear your 12 ga for over a mile. They wont hear the subsonic .22, thru the Ciener unit/AR, beyond 50 ft. I can carry 10x as many 60 gr Aquila subsonic 22's as you can carry 12 ga shells. There are BILLIONS of rds of 223 in NG and military arsenals and VERY few  12 ga shells. If shtf, those arsenals will be breeched, so 223 will be the main rd found/bartered, other than 22lr.  There's very few slugs or buck shells at any given wally's, mostly just small birdshot, which is pretty worthless vs men past about 20 yds, and even then, you'll have to center the pattern on his head/neck. when people actually have to lug around 100 rds or so in case of combat-need, they won't like 12 ga at ALL. :-) i can carry 3.5 rds of 223 for the same weight as one 12 ga shell.  The AR can be as lw as 4 lbs, too.

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OK I'll give you your AR scenario but why a conversion ? there are conversion cases from 223 to 22LR if your hunting you need only one shot if a 5.56 is your main arm why fill it with a conversion leave it as is drop in a shell conversion  if you get jumped your in 22LR mode.  If you use a conversion shell you charge your rifle and kick out the 22LR case  conversion  loading the 5.56 and a mag full right behind it.

 

Shotguns have been used in combat they have an intermediate purpose between pistol and rifle and can and have taken large game fore years before all the political correctness buck shot on a rising group of geese and ducks increased yield. and hostilities will not last forever.

so I cannot see because of troubles that have yet to exist we should all throw down our shotguns. 

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