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Danm

Guns and carrying them... thoughts and observations

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I am a big supporter of not just the right to keep and bear arms but the right of honest people to carry them for personal protection BUT...

 

The problem with this sort of thing is that a lot of people are dumb butts and that gun is more likely to get them in trouble than save them from trouble. I see this as true both now AND in a survival situation. Let me tell you this as a fact, the best way to win a gunfight is to NOT GET IN ONE!!!

 

A lot of people put on a gun and suddenly they think that they are 7 feet tall and armor plated. They will do stuff that they would NEVER think of getting involved in if they didn't have a gun. The old walk softly and carry a big stick is even more important if it is a gun instead of a stick. Don't let that gun lead you into a stupid confrontation that you don't just have to get into. If Zimmerman had seen Martin breaking into a house his situation would have been totally different. Instead he got out of his car and got involved with a Kid armed with Skiddles and tea walking home. If he hadn't had that gun he most likely would have stayed in his car and just watched. That is really all he needed to do.

 

If you are going to carry a gun you also need other options. I always carry a knife and if I'm going to get out of my car I'll have a tactical flashlight and a heavy walking stick. I have one of those in every vehicle that I own. I'm not talking about a light little crook neck old mans cane either. One is a cold steel made walking stick made out of a solid core high impact plastic that you could beat a car to pieces with. Another is a solid fiberglass cane an inch in diameter that is almost like carrying a 37” piece of pipe and the third on is a hand carved hickory stick that is almost 2” on top and tapering slightly towards a 1.5” tip. It is tough and I will replace it when it gets a little older.

 

Large maglites are nice but I actually have gotten fond of the smaller tactical lights that are like a photo flash when they hit you in the eyes. If it is legal in your area pepper spry is great. If it isn't get yourself a jar of jalapeno peppers and puree them. I used to carry this when I was a young punk. You get that stuff in your hands and either slap the crap out of someone or throw it in their face and they are just SCREWED!! It gets in their eyes and is devastating. The fight is OVER and the butt kicking can begin!

 

The problem with all of these things is that it gets you close and as Zimmerman found out that's not a good thing. You are a winner EVERY time that you walk away from a fight. Right now in America the gun is for DEFENSE not ever for offense and it is always better to avoid trouble than jump into it.

 

Zimmerman made several big time mistakes. The first one was when he left his car. The second one was not retreating as soon as he lost sight of the kid. If you are messing with someone that you think might be trouble, if you lose sight of them you need to back up and move to a defensible position. If Martin HAD been real trouble he would have easily taken Zimmerman out.

 

This is the most important thing you need to understand about a gun. GUNS ARE FOR SHOOTING PEOPLE THAT ARE OVER THERE BEFORE THEY GET OVER HERE. Once someone is within touching distance of you a gun is nearly useless against someone that knows what they are doing. If I can reach out and touch you you can NOT shoot me. I've proven this over and over to nonbelievers. It is just a fact.

 

Think, if Martin had been a REAL thug and instead of punching Zimmerman in the nose with his fist he could have just as easily gone up side his head with a piece of steel pipe!! The gun was actually only able to come into use because Martin was not actually trying to kill him and was just a punk kid. Zimmerman had a RIGHT to use that gun after he was attacked BUT if he wasn't such a total fuck up he would never have gotten into that position. He was in my opinion as responsible as Martin for the end result in a lot of ways.

 

If you carry a gun you need to KNOW the laws EXACTLY and know what you will say and not say if you ever have to use that gun. Zimmerman was found innocent but if you don't think he has been punished you are WRONG. His life is ruined. This will haunt him for the rest of his life even if the Feds don't figure out a way to nail him or the Martin family guts him in civil courts.

 

In a TEOTWAWKI survival situation a gun can be deadly to YOU. You have to understand, this isn't like playing army or even like the things the army actually does in wars and battles. If things were to go totally to pieces ANY injury may be lethal! If you get gut shot with a little 22lr you are probably going to DIE. Not only will you die, it's going to be slow, painful and ugly. Without medics, evacuation and immediate hospitalization, surgery and doctors you are just done! Even if you have a medical trained person are you up for white knuckle surgery?? Remember no hospital means no anesthesia or serious antibiotics. If the shock doesn't get you the infection probably will.

 

This is one reason I don't really like the idea of people arming themselves to the teeth. Your primary objective needs to be to AVOID confrontation. The “playtime not really” assault weapons are crappy for defensive purposes. That is why they are ASSAULT weapons. They are going to make a lot of silly dumb butts that have watched to many Rambo movies get killed.

 

When you walk through the valley of the shadow of death you don't want or need to be the baddest thing in the valley. You just want to be the one that went through unseen and got the hell out as fast as possible uninjured and alive!

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Agreed Damn and wally

 

I don't carry a gun to find trouble, I carry in case it finds me, even then I try to avoid it, like the plague.

 

there are times for offense but it is not now and I hope we don't live to see it you know all that gnashing of teeth stuff.

 

besides if you live by the gun lalalalalal you know I like to live and let live and be my brothers keeper a lover not a fighter

 

but hey like changing clothes if I am threatened I got to do what a man's got to do, then again I have done things and wondered

 

what in the hell possessed me to do that? You had to be there.

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So True. . .two families futures destroyed. I can only imagine how much Z would have given for a flashlight with a built in TASER or just a regular TASER. 'The problem that you have when a confrontation turns physical is there is no way to know what the outcome will be. It must end before you are badly hurt. Whatever skills or tools you have must be used NOW not later and that can lead to situations such as this.

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I religiously practice "conflict avoidance". While I am not adverse to "conflict" nor "confrontation", I prefer to NOT get involved and would rather avoid it altogether.

That being said, I will leave rather than "have a fight", I go armed because sometimes trouble DOES follow you intentionally. I try to treat people like I like to be treated and don't return the universally understood one-finger gesture of contempt, or profane invectives hurled at me.

I want people to think me a "nice middle-aged docile man" makes my version of events FAR more believable.(practicality usually wins the day)

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As far as non lethal weapons I am against them in any way shape or form for many reasons

 

if death is not a deterrent then what is?

 

if a criminal things he is fighting against only minor injury why would he not take the chance and

that includes rape murder and as we have recently seen kidnapping with 10 years of rape and torment

has everyone forgot the 30 something murders here in texas years ago ??

 

I am not here to train your children or parolees if someone is following me I ask them flat out what do you want

 

conversation if it would have been used everyone would know the program lip locked and fearful or hateful

is not going to help anyone any time speak and do not use profanity be specific look right in their eyes.

 

I won't get into the T versus Z thing to much quick sand there BUT if a racist is attacked by a race he does not like

and is forced to defend themselves does that make them a murderer?

let us face it race is an issue and if your white your a racist if your Mexican now your a white Mexican what next

a luminous Eskimo?

this race thing does not work both ways so in itself it is racist instead of talking on his phone he should have turned and said

I am on the phone and unless you have a reason to follow me I will have the police on you!

on the other hand nimrod 2 should have said something or maybe he was not allowed because he got jumped I / we will never know.

the leftists act like he was a wannabe cop DUH! well they started this sh*t of neighborhood watch because they did not want ARMED police killing little thugs but now people have a right to be armed so that throws a kink in there.

 

now how would it have worked out had T killed the neighborhood watch dude??? oh well he would have gotten off or less than 10

years because it was not aggravated {no weapon} not planned blah blah BUT that's OK

as long as the racial divide is not altered no one would give a sh*t about Z would all those talking heads come out for a Mexican?

not Farakhan not any of those other so called defenders of color, what color I guess there is only one as I never see them at any

other time. as I recall there are red for Indians white for Anglos brown for Mexican are they not a color too are they not

murdered and rapped child molested any more or less than any other?

I am sick and tired of this sh*t any color can be a murderer any color can be decent if they want it that way then why in the hell

do GOVERNMENT forms have RACE on it who's the racist NOW who fosters this who is making it an issue not me.

why do voter districts get re planned for RACE why not no districts just popular vote???

I am an American not a _________ American I am tired of having to use a new name at first it was colored then black then it was afro American DID I MISS ANY?

 

Well I have been called every thing in the book wetback red skin RED N_____R, MF, SOB and you know what I consider the source

when I was a kid other friends were attacked and called JEW boys polocks kikes japs flat heads hell I have forgotten all the insults

there were so damn many from color to religion to who was their mother or lack of a father.

I think people should get over themselves and get off the cross we need the wood.

as I look at all the faces in our Government like the supreme court the pentagon and all the other agencies I notice all races

all ethnic groups so HOW IN THE HELL CAN ANYONE SAY THEY ARE HELD DOWN ? OH SO UNTIL ALL OF THEM HAVE A COLLEGE DEGREE A MILLION DOLLAR HOME AND A MOVIE STAR WIFE OR HUSBAND WE ARE ALL A BUNCH OF RACIST B@STARDS.

if that is the case and that is how you feel go to the lake and pull it over your head.

 

This is America I have the God given right to fell any damn thing I want to! any time I want to how I want to

and I don't care what color ethnic group or religion or even if your not from this planet you put your hands on me and we

got a problem mostly you.

I am not an apologist not a spokes person for any one group or otherwise I am not here to kiss your azz make friends or

make kissy faces hold hands or play hide the weenie or take long soapy showers with anyone's dumbazz unless I choose to

do so you want warm and fuzzy get a pet.

Ans if you act like a gentleman and or a lady or a well mannered child maybe someone won't confuse you with a gang member

and blow a hole in you no matter what flavor you are or maybe they might because some people are just EVIL.

My parents forbid me to hate or dislike for any reason other than another persons attitude or actions they would roll over in their

grave if I did something stupid as that limit my personal contact because of crap like color religion or ethnicity that is crazy.

7 billion people and your going to pick one or more you never met and hate them how silly is that.

nor does it mean I have to try to like them that is my right also so I have decided to hate everyone so no one feels left out.

so get the fu@k of my lawn you sh*thead I don't want your vacuum cleaner, your encyclopedias soap on a rope

or your religion door hangar or whatever else your selling pushing or giving away I AM AN AMERICAN I CAN TELL YOU WHERE TO GET OFF IT'S MY GOD GIVEN RIGHT!

 

 

Do not be misled this is another gun grabbing anti gun anti self defense in sheep's clothing I saw holder's conference

and all the other wannabes {wannabe the leader of their group and make millions off it}

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I disagree. The point is to extricate myself with the least personal damage. George Zimmerman may have won the battle but in the end he lost the war. He is just SCREWED! I don't look at a gun as a deterrent. It is a last ditch tool to save my butt. If I can get out of the situation and NOT have to spend every penny that I have defending my choice it is all to the good. I'm not trying to nor am I interested in changing the world, just surviving to see another sunrise with the minimal personal tragedy possible.

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General thoughts....

 

 

Danm,

 

When the boy child was at that dumb shit age...<13 to 19>, I used to tell him, "...just be polite, you don't have to kiss someones ass, but you do need to be polite, being polite will keep you out of trouble 90% of the time." We'll never know if that would have helped with the Zimmerman case.

 

Snake,

 

When he got to the age where he started dating girls I used to laugh when he'd tell me what he wanted in a girl...it usually involved large breasts along with some other things...I used to tell him that he should pay more attention to what was between her ears instead of what was under them. Same thing goes with people in general...I don't tend to worry about the wrapper.

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I cannot say as I was not on the jury nor watched the trial my personal opinion has no place a jury of his piers

 

Charles Barkley today said he agreed with the jury and made other comments that got me thinking he had a

 

excellent grasp of the situation more than most, remarkable interview my respects to Mr. Barkley

 

It is unfortunate that a person died but a lesson of respect and cool speech and thinking before violence

 

all the evidence as per the witnesses showed a fight happened pictures showed injuries what else are we to do?

 

the treyvon and zimmerman trial was shot in the foot before it got started local issues should be taken care of locally

 

unless it is shown to be racially prejudiced then that is what the Attorney general's office is for we have rule of law

 

we have a justice system and juries then state and federal if people would let them work instead of manipulating

 

from the media it may have been better now we will never know.

 

and we do not know if Zimmerman thought he was going to be killed accidentally or otherwise so I won't question him as

 

one day you or I may be in the same situation you may have shot someone who was mentally ill so in the aftermath

 

all the back seat drivers will rip you apart BUT oh no you had no idea he was mentally ill but now they do and you look bad!

 

I cannot see where zimmerman would know the age or if treyvon was armed.

 

your not questioning zimmerman your questioning the jury medical doctors and a world renowned forensic doctor

 

sometimes there is a no win situation this was it when you have to defend yourself I will take your word for it

 

and when someone else has to defend themselves I take their word like the lady with her kids in the attic why would not say

 

she should have just fired over his head I mean where is the end.

 

and a gun can be a deterrent and as it happened zimmerman is still alive and without brain injury or disfigurement.

 

if he would have been knocked out who knows if the fight would have stopped?

 

As long as the evidence supports the statement and a grand jury or jury agrees far be it for me to question any of it.

 

all that will do is cause more infighting and racism by us questioning it is already bad and I cannot put myself in his mind.

 

nor make it to where the stand your ground law be altered as remember that women fall under this same law

 

if a person has to prove that they had no recourse just pray tell how would they do that?

 

what if well I wont go there oh yea I will what if zimmerman was knocked out then treyvon stomped him out while

 

he was helpless? do you think people would have run to help his family after he was dead?

 

There must have been a question in his mind as to his survival if there was not he would not be human and that

 

is all it takes for me to understand the juries finding.

 

As far as I know zimmerman was never a soldier or a highly trained or experienced officer or a fighter

 

so I am positive he would have been in fear of his life but that still does not matter as that is not what the law requires.

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There is a REASON you need to sequester a jury when a case is big time in the news. The liberal media tried and convicted Zimmerman before he was even indicted. They use subliminal tricks in their coverage that slants people's feelings. For example, Zimmerman admitted that he shot Trayvon and this fact was made clear in their reporting. If you will note, they almost immediately started calling Trayvon MARTIN by his first name yet NEVER started calling Zimmerman GEORGE. This gives you a personal connection to pooooor Trayvon and distances you from Zimmerman.

 

The fact is this entire thing is a sad case of two stupid people each contributing to a mess. Martin was a punk kid. That is what a 17 year old boy is sort of supposed to be unfortunately. He made a totally dumb decision and payed for it with his life. Zimmerman was an equally dumb cop wantabe that was clueless and totally unprepared to defend himself. If he had been even marginally competent Martin would have gotten whupped or zapped and that would have been the end of it. Zimmerman is going to pay for his stupidity for the rest of his life. Mostly I feel so very sorry for the families of BOTH of these poor dumb people. Race was not and never was about what happened. The Media made that up and we like the dumb monkeys we are went for it.

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There is a REASON you need to sequester a jury when a case is big time in the news. The liberal media tried and convicted Zimmerman before he was even indicted. They use subliminal tricks in their coverage that slants people's feelings. For example, Zimmerman admitted that he shot Trayvon and this fact was made clear in their reporting. If you will note, they almost immediately started calling Trayvon MARTIN by his first name yet NEVER started calling Zimmerman GEORGE. This gives you a personal connection to pooooor Trayvon and distances you from Zimmerman.

 

The fact is this entire thing is a sad case of two stupid people each contributing to a mess. Martin was a punk kid. That is what a 17 year old boy is sort of supposed to be unfortunately. He made a totally dumb decision and payed for it with his life. Zimmerman was an equally dumb cop wantabe that was clueless and totally unprepared to defend himself. If he had been even marginally competent Martin would have gotten whupped or zapped and that would have been the end of it. Zimmerman is going to pay for his stupidity for the rest of his life. Mostly I feel so very sorry for the families of BOTH of these poor dumb people. Race was not and never was about what happened. The Media made that up and we like the dumb monkeys we are went for it.

 

Interesting thread. I carry multiple knives, just like I have various wrenches in my toolbox. I have NEVER seen a single blade that does ALL things well. Similarly, I have never seen a gun that does ALL things well. I have a strong bias (if I'm wrong here and TEOTWAWKI happens I'll be dead and I know it) that combat will NOT be a large part of anyone's survival experience. If combat is more than a fraction of a percent of your survival experience, I doubt many (any?) of us will make it. That being said, I carry for 'little Lizzie'.

 

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/concealed-carry-issues-discussions/10198-why-do-you-carry-gun-john-connor-guncrankdiaries.html

 

I agree that a .22LR belongs in any survival armory as it is perhaps the most flexible firearm out there. I also really like the handgun/rifle combination. I like lever guns as being incredibly reliable and accurate. I can put AIMED fire downrange from a lever gun as fast as most folks can put AIMED fire down range from a semi-auto. I was amazed and very, very pleased to find out that Jeff Cooper agreed with me!B)

 

I prefer my .45 Colt revolver/lever gun combo although I am looking at a .357. I think you need a firearm big enough to take the meanest, biggest, baddest predator in your area. If you are in brown bear country that is probably a .454 Casull; if in black bear, a .357 Mag or .45 is probably big enough. I like that for a survival hand gun and an effective deer (most common grazing animal in your area, deer, moose, elk, etc.) rifle for my 'long gun'. Mostly a .308 or .30-06 but in parts of the country like East Texas where 50 years is a long shot, a .30-30 is also an excellent choice. Then a shotgun for close in work. Close in there is not enough difference between 12 and 20 to matter. Pick what gives you the most flexibility. Some of the new semi-autos that chamber 9mm or .40/.45 ACP have some attractiveness but I simply do not know how reliable the action is on these weapons. Some even use Glock magazines so if you shoot Glock handguns, you only need one set of mags. Not a bad idea but make sure that, especially if you use 9mm, it passes the big, bad predator test.

 

I do have combat weapons, they are at my survival location and the army taught me to use them well and I have taught my bride and children. I have them more because I like to shoot them, not because I think I will really need to practice what I learned in "Infantry Squad in the Attack". In addition, their caliber makes for a very effective deer rifle.

 

I also do not believe that "non-lethal" weapons exist. Every tool that applies force is capable of killing if used in the wrong (right?) way. Additionally, I try to inform people that the purpose of a gun is not to shoot/kill/wound/harm another person/animal. A gunfight is won when one of the participants decides he has lost, even if no shots have been fired. That is exactly the case in my most successful gunfight; no shots were fired.

 

Just like a military battle, an enemy may be killed but he is NOT defeated until HE thinks he is defeated. I fire my weapon to remove a threat and I keep firing until that threat is removed! If there is a weapon in his hand, he is a threat so I will shoot again. The mall ninjas may think getting into a fire fight is fun but they are IDIOTS! Two way lead exchanges are never fun and even if you escape unharmed, there is NO complete winner. Danm is correct; George beat the rap, but he didn't beat the ride downtown. It beat a ride to the funeral home but there was a price to pay.

 

There are iron clad reasons I will engage (again, reference little Lizzie) but when you strap on a gun you have forfeited any right to be offended or offensive. You have placed Death incarnate on your hip and must behave accordingly. No booze, no fooling around, no getting angry, no pride - nothing that you do can escalate a situation unless it is in defense of yourself or of others. Mr. Zimmerman was apparently never taught this basic survival truth and has now paid a steep price for the lesson.

 

Just my not so humble opinion, of course.

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good opinion Capt Bart

 

but as we have seen Z was getting pommeled how long he could have held out and how long T was willing to engage and to what point

 

would he have been held to account as he was just a baaaby!

 

I know people some are very dangerous one is small about 5' 5" and weights about 130 pounds wringing wet does not give the appearance

 

or demeanor of a threat well he is to the extreme and way beyond if he ever decided to break bad as the new term references to he would

 

be the last person you would want to tangle with he used to rip phone books in half now some say that is a trick well now try to follow his next trick

 

by sticking your hand through a solid core door or doing a back flip into a chair and make it look real easy like a cat

 

My point is and it should have been made at the trial we cannot tell a book by it's cover many inmates are not bulked up and mean as a snake have

 

murdered numerous people I was fortunate to have lived overseas for quite a few years size has not a thing to do with threat level and with drug use

 

many police have seen some crazy events so as far as I can figure it a person has one chance to back up or it's on I have too much experience

 

to give anyone a chance period.

 

police are allowed to use deadly force on a person only armed with a knife there is a reason for that and any weapon that can render you unable to

 

defend yourself is deadly in my mind.

 

as far as T & Z this was and is a political a racial attempt to gain the upper hand on both fields an aggressor has no claim to anything whatever happens

 

it falls to that person no matter age creed color mother father political leanings or sexual preference if you go after someone tough sh*t as far as I am

 

concerned it was attempted suicide that just happen to work.

 

I have seen CHILDREN in Houston carrying guns and knifes and not for hunting and mumbletypeg practice so cry all you want for the little chillin'

 

i have been shot at by them and we got little people that carry so what I am suppose to ask for I.D. well they have not yet required everyone has an I.D.

 

so I figure if your old enough to threaten me with a deadly weapon or jump me either individually or in a group that is how they will bury you

 

and we got female gang banger children too. so save your tears for those that are deserving I am all out.

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I agree that there are idiots who own guns. I agree there are some people who would be far better living without guns as they will only (a) get themselves into trouble or (B) give guns to the bad guys. I also agree that it is far better to avoid a confrontation and stay "off the radar" than it is to get into the confrontation under most circumstances. As stated, sometimes the fight comes to you though. And you need to make sure you're up to the task.

 

To delve into the Martin/Zimmerman case, many of the "facts" presented in the initial post are just plain wrong.

 

To start with, had Zimmerman seen Martin breaking into a house, the facts of the case would be NO different. In Florida as in much of the rest of the US, you are not allowed to use lethal force to defend property. The homeowner, had they been home, would have been operating under a completely different set of rules from Zimmerman as an outside observer. Had Zimmerman heard a homeowner scream (probable cause to believe an innocent victim is inside), then yes there is a possibility that he could have used lethal force to defend that person.

 

To say Martin was not a real punk is just not correct. Do a little digging, the "kid" was no saint. Reference the skittles, tea and Trayvon Martin being some innocent kid, I'll refer you to this I'll refer you to this exceptional video on YouTube.

 

I will agree you should carry weapons and tools other than just a gun. I doubt anyone here would disagree with you on that point. We don't know what else Zimmerman was carrying that night other than a handgun and a cellular phone. That being said, my priorities for grabbing tools/equipment look like this: gun, flashlight, knife, everything else.

 

I would not rely on pepper spray/mace/oc spray, I've personally watched more than one person get sprayed with it and continue what they were doing, only squinting their eyes slightly. Didn't even slow them down. "Less lethal" weapons, in my opinion (and experience and training), should only be deployed when you have lethal cover, in the event Murphy is with you.

 

All of your arguments about the Zimmerman case rely heavily on armchair quarterbacking. When you start laying judgements down on people, you MUST remind yourself of one simple fact. You weren't there. You didn't see what Martin or Zimmerman or those witnesses or the law enforcement/fire/ems that responded to the scene saw. You saw pictures and printings of what news stations with agendas WANTED you to see. Courts don't work like you think, and "the whole truth" is never shown in court. If you've never been part of a jury trial (not watching it, in it) then you know just how much information is not admissible, even legally obtained and truthful information.

 

Ideally guns are for shooting people that are "over there" before they get "over here." Well, analysis of lethal force encounters in the civilian world shows that the overwhelming majority of lethal force encounters occur at less than 5 yards. Even someone who is ridiculously out of shape can close a 5 yard gap and leave you virtually no reaction time. Ideal conditions rarely happen on the street.

 

I would agree that both Zimmerman and Martin made what I would consider poor choices that night. Did the gun contribute to Zimmerman's decision to engage rather than observe? Possibly, but Zimmerman is the only one who knows that. Was Martin really only going out for a fruit punch drink and some skittles? Possibly, but only Martin knew that. Was Martin trying to kill Zimmerman? Maybe, there is evidence that would support the argument in either direction. Was Zimmerman out to kill Martin? Doubtful, I don't see how there was any way Zimmerman would know that leaving his vehicle that night would directly contribute to Martin's death.

 

Some people will engage regardless of access to weapons, the apparent physical strength of the other party, or numerous other factors. People don't always act rationally, with clear heads, and the ability to sit back and run a cost/benefit analysis of each and every situation they come across.

 

That being said, I'll give my 2 cents. Get a gun. Train hard with it. Become proficient in its carry, use and maintenance. Shoot it whenever you can to reach and maintain your target accuracy. Know how to hold onto it if a bad guy gets close enough to try to take it, holstered or in your hands. Know how to draw it from being seatbelted in a car or while pushing a grocery cart. Know what it is capable of in YOUR hands. You fall to the level of your training, so make sure it's a short fall!

 

When I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I want to be the baddest unseen thing in the valley.

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I agree that there are idiots who own guns. I agree there are some people who would be far better living without guns as they will only (a) get themselves into trouble or (B) give guns to the bad guys. I also agree that it is far better to avoid a confrontation and stay "off the radar" than it is to get into the confrontation under most circumstances. As stated, sometimes the fight comes to you though. And you need to make sure you're up to the task.

 

To delve into the Martin/Zimmerman case, many of the "facts" presented in the initial post are just plain wrong.

 

To start with, had Zimmerman seen Martin breaking into a house, the facts of the case would be NO different. In Florida as in much of the rest of the US, you are not allowed to use lethal force to defend property. The homeowner, had they been home, would have been operating under a completely different set of rules from Zimmerman as an outside observer. Had Zimmerman heard a homeowner scream (probable cause to believe an innocent victim is inside), then yes there is a possibility that he could have used lethal force to defend that person.

 

To say Martin was not a real punk is just not correct. Do a little digging, the "kid" was no saint. Reference the skittles, tea and Trayvon Martin being some innocent kid, I'll refer you to this I'll refer you to this exceptional video on YouTube.

 

I will agree you should carry weapons and tools other than just a gun. I doubt anyone here would disagree with you on that point. We don't know what else Zimmerman was carrying that night other than a handgun and a cellular phone. That being said, my priorities for grabbing tools/equipment look like this: gun, flashlight, knife, everything else.

 

I would not rely on pepper spray/mace/oc spray, I've personally watched more than one person get sprayed with it and continue what they were doing, only squinting their eyes slightly. Didn't even slow them down. "Less lethal" weapons, in my opinion (and experience and training), should only be deployed when you have lethal cover, in the event Murphy is with you.

 

All of your arguments about the Zimmerman case rely heavily on armchair quarterbacking. When you start laying judgements down on people, you MUST remind yourself of one simple fact. You weren't there. You didn't see what Martin or Zimmerman or those witnesses or the law enforcement/fire/ems that responded to the scene saw. You saw pictures and printings of what news stations with agendas WANTED you to see. Courts don't work like you think, and "the whole truth" is never shown in court. If you've never been part of a jury trial (not watching it, in it) then you know just how much information is not admissible, even legally obtained and truthful information.

 

Ideally guns are for shooting people that are "over there" before they get "over here." Well, analysis of lethal force encounters in the civilian world shows that the overwhelming majority of lethal force encounters occur at less than 5 yards. Even someone who is ridiculously out of shape can close a 5 yard gap and leave you virtually no reaction time. Ideal conditions rarely happen on the street.

 

I would agree that both Zimmerman and Martin made what I would consider poor choices that night. Did the gun contribute to Zimmerman's decision to engage rather than observe? Possibly, but Zimmerman is the only one who knows that. Was Martin really only going out for a fruit punch drink and some skittles? Possibly, but only Martin knew that. Was Martin trying to kill Zimmerman? Maybe, there is evidence that would support the argument in either direction. Was Zimmerman out to kill Martin? Doubtful, I don't see how there was any way Zimmerman would know that leaving his vehicle that night would directly contribute to Martin's death.

 

Some people will engage regardless of access to weapons, the apparent physical strength of the other party, or numerous other factors. People don't always act rationally, with clear heads, and the ability to sit back and run a cost/benefit analysis of each and every situation they come across.

 

That being said, I'll give my 2 cents. Get a gun. Train hard with it. Become proficient in its carry, use and maintenance. Shoot it whenever you can to reach and maintain your target accuracy. Know how to hold onto it if a bad guy gets close enough to try to take it, holstered or in your hands. Know how to draw it from being seatbelted in a car or while pushing a grocery cart. Know what it is capable of in YOUR hands. You fall to the level of your training, so make sure it's a short fall!

 

When I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I want to be the baddest unseen thing in the valley.

 

Major K,

 

Basically no disagreement, sir. I would just add a couple of things. First, in some states, Texas for sure, the time of day matters. At night, use of lethal force to prevent property crimes is legal, even against misdemeanor offenses. That basically recognizes the fact that due to the limited visibility the risk is much higher at night. Since you can not see what is in their hands or where they might be pointing what they have, you have more leeway for action. KNOW what the law is in your area and always have an attorney on call. It could keep you out of Zimmerman's shoes.

 

My only other quibble is that I do not think you are "proficient" with your weapon until you can fully function with it in your weak hand. I am a better shot with my weak hand than most folks I know are with their strong hand. I can also run my clearing drills with all my firearms, one handed, with my weak hand. I do consider myself proficient but NOT expert. I know folks who are better than me. I do not like that but what I like or dislike does not change the facts on the ground.

 

Just my not so humble opinion, of course.

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Major Krisis, I have personally served on 7 juries and sat for 13 panels. I've served as foreman two of them. I am maybe TOO well aware why the symbol of our Justice system is a blindfolded lady justice holding a set of balance scales. The blindfold is so that she can't see the shenanigans done by the layers and to make SURE that justice never enters into a court of law. Believe me I am well versed in this area!

 

As far as the armchair QB thing, unfortunately EVERYONE involved in the case except Mr. Zimmerman is in that boat. He was about the only one there that could come to court. Martin was a little indisposed you know.

 

Martin was about a normal 17 year old boy...That makes him a punk. He had some troubles but a lot of young men let their balls get them in hot water. As far as his being expelled from school for fighting...that's just something a lot of boys do. He didn't have a criminal record and as far as I can find he was just a punk kid and not a thug.

 

My original analysis of Zimmerman's actions were indeed based on me not being there BUT I HAVE been there in both a civilian Neighborhood watch capacity and in more professional ways as both a bouncer and a guard. You HAVE to think ahead and PLAN for the unexpected if you are going to do things like that. Zimmerman is a sweet guy maybe but he was ill prepared for what he was doing. As a neighborhood watch person that is what he needed to do. When he got out of his car he entered a totally different arena and just walked into trouble without any plan. He was like Custer and was just SURE that he was too bad to have to be careful. If Martin HAD been a thug instead of a punk kid he would have either killed or beat the living cr*p out of Zimmerman.

 

If you are going to have a neighborhood watch you need two people or a back up on call just so this sort of thing doesn't happen. If he hadn't been just one lone crazy cracker Martin would have most likely not attacked him. When you are doing this you are NOT a policeman and don't generally have the training to deal. WATCH, call the cops, and then call for backup. It was a tactical disaster Maj. Crisis. He was a cop wanta-be but had no experience and to tell the truth not a lot of aptitude. Zimmerman was just lucky it wasn't his body lying dead in the street. He only survived because Martin never had any intention of killing him...Of course Zimmerman had no way of knowing that and did, legally, what he thought he had to do to protect himself. Sad but NOT criminal.

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Danm,

Actually, I think Martin DID beat the C**p out of Zimmerman and I think Zimmerman survived ONLY because he fired his weapon.Whether or not Martin intended to kill, his actions were lethal and could have resulted in death or serious (like there is "un"-serious) brain injury. That said, you are correct that this was an avoidable incident and certainly different actions on the part of either or both would have resulted in a better outcome.

 

Secondly, I've also been foreman on a murder trial. I have argued before that what I "feel" is irrelevant; the standard is "reasonable" doubt not what might have been or how I feel. I think the DA messed up big time with the charges. This was a slam dunk manslaughter case but the DA's office got greedy. There are a whole slew of political and social issues involved: teaching kids they are somehow not responsible for their actions have gotten a lot of kids locked up or dead. The solo encounter should never have happened but it did happen so here we are left with the aftermath. Those with their own axes to grind are making hay with this mess.

 

When I was a kid, age 7 IIRC, I was taught to fire weapons. I had a .22 Cal air rifle at that time. I was taught to shoot my mom's revolver (a .32 S&W) and always had access to her .410 for casual shooting. I knew what they could do and I knew the result of negligence on my part. (My parents did NOT believe in accidents when it came to weapons.)

 

The court system is NOT about Justice, in spite of what they say. The court system is about the law; when justice is also done it is a happy coincidence. We forget that fact at peril to our freedom if not our very life.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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I disagree. The point is to extricate myself with the least personal damage. George Zimmerman may have won the battle but in the end he lost the war. He is just SCREWED! I don't look at a gun as a deterrent. It is a last ditch tool to save my butt. If I can get out of the situation and NOT have to spend every penny that I have defending my choice it is all to the good. I'm not trying to nor am I interested in changing the world, just surviving to see another sunrise with the minimal personal tragedy possible.

 

and that is what zimmerman did. and as for your original post, if you look past what the MSM is feeding people you will see that zimmerman was doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing as a neighborhood watch captain. and when he was told to stop pursuing he did. martin actually made it home after he took off running, but he was pissed that he got "profiled" by the crazy ass cracka and came back out looking for a fight because of his wounded pride. the use of that firearm is the only thing that saved zimmerman's life that night. and he actually waited till his skull was being bashed into the pavement before he pulled and used it. that is clear cut self defense. in fact he showed great restraint in waiting till then to draw and use it. so no i disagree that zimmerman was using his sidearm as a crutch he was only doing what was asked of him and protecting his neighborhood and i think we all should be so lucky to have a neighbor that would be willing to stand up for his neighbors.

 

get off what the media whores are feeding you about this case and realize that martin is dead because of his own actions and nothing else.

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There is a REASON you need to sequester a jury when a case is big time in the news. The liberal media tried and convicted Zimmerman before he was even indicted. They use subliminal tricks in their coverage that slants people's feelings. For example, Zimmerman admitted that he shot Trayvon and this fact was made clear in their reporting. If you will note, they almost immediately started calling Trayvon MARTIN by his first name yet NEVER started calling Zimmerman GEORGE. This gives you a personal connection to pooooor Trayvon and distances you from Zimmerman.

 

The fact is this entire thing is a sad case of two stupid people each contributing to a mess. Martin was a punk kid. That is what a 17 year old boy is sort of supposed to be unfortunately. He made a totally dumb decision and payed for it with his life. Zimmerman was an equally dumb cop wantabe that was clueless and totally unprepared to defend himself. If he had been even marginally competent Martin would have gotten whupped or zapped and that would have been the end of it. Zimmerman is going to pay for his stupidity for the rest of his life. Mostly I feel so very sorry for the families of BOTH of these poor dumb people. Race was not and never was about what happened. The Media made that up and we like the dumb monkeys we are went for it.

 

you do realize that martin had a thing for MMA fighting. and what he had zimmerman in was a mount. that is nearly impossible to break out of when in that position. i have been on the underside of a mount and you are helpless if the person on top knows what they are doing which martin knew enough. again the only stupid actions committed that night were on martin's part

 

here is a good article about the fight and why just because someone is unarmed doesnt mean they arent lethal

 

http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/07/22/the-danger-of-fists/

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You are totally right Wardog. Once you get in a full mount you have the other person just about totally in your power. I'm aware that Martin WAS a fan of this and that is why I say that he didn't intend to kill Zimmerman or Zimmerman would have never got the chance to shoot him. Once I get you in a full mount the fight is over unless you are a VERY skilled martial artist. Martin was just doing a thumping and let up. That cost him his life.Tough Sh*T he attacked the guy and that is what happens when you do that sort of stupid cr*p.

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Martin was just doing a thumping and let up.

 

Danm, personally I would think long and hard before you jump on the bandwagon of people saying that. If you approach survival situations with that same mentality, you're making a whole lot of assumptions without any hard facts and essentially resting your survival on a lot of lucky breaks and good fortune. A very wise instructor of mine once told me "don't go home because the bad guy let you go home."

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Hell Major Crisis I would have shot him BEFORE he got on top of me instead of after. If this had happened in Texas there never would have been even a trial. We have a guy here that put up a DEER STAND and has killed two so far for stealing from his junk yard! If you break into a place here you can be killed on the spot. There is NO question if you have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself from an attacker.

 

Nonetheless if Martin had wanted to kill Zimmerman or even beat him half to death he would have done so. If I get on top of you and pound your head on concrete a few times you will NOT get up and shoot me... and I'm an old Fart. That isn't like doing it on a mat in martial arts. Martin was a fairly typical stupid kid and he was doing a typical kid sort of fight. Zimmerman was lucky. If the kid had truly been bad news that first strike would have been with something besides a fist. Real thugs don't mess up their hands fopping you...hell I don't play that kind of stuff. If I hit you with my fist you can bet that I have stainless steel brass knuckles on them!! A sap is even better and my cold steel delrin shalaylee is even better than that...Last case is shoot the guy. To many problems and too permanent at this time.

 

Zimmerman went home because Martin was a kid and didn't really try to finish what he started. That is just a fact. If he had been better prepared and tactically a little smarter he would never have found himself in a position where he thought he needed to kill the kid to survive. That also is a FACT.

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Zimmerman went home because Martin was a kid and didn't really try to finish what he started. That is just a fact. If he had been better prepared and tactically a little smarter he would never have found himself in a position where he thought he needed to kill the kid to survive. That also is a FACT.

 

zimmerman was only doing his job as a neighborhood watch captain. and putting any of the blame on him is at best shameful, at worst setting a bad precedent for self defense. martin came back looking for him and jumped him in the dark. I'm sure zimmerman was actually showing restraint up until he was on the ground because martin was just a kid. when martin ran and after he stopped and was walking back to his truck he probably thought the kid was gone because who normally would circle back around looking for a fight knowing that most likely the police were on their way.

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