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Danm

Essay on guns and surviving in various senarios

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The fact is, you don't need anything much bigger than a 22lr for much of anything as far as food gathering goes. One of the mental shifts that you would need to make in a "bug out" situation would be in your concept of hunting. Sport hunting and food providing are two TOTALLY different things.

 

If I want a deer I am not going to spend endless hours stalking or sitting on a stand. That is sport hunting. I probably will either spotlight one at night or snare one with aircraft cable. In either case the 22lr is all you need to dispatch your prey. Snaring a deer is actually easy. They travel the same trails almost every night from their bedding areas to their feeding places. Does are pretty simple to find and catch. Spotlighting the deer is super easy and that is why it is illegal.

 

Rabbits and squirrels are also easy to snare and trap. For dispatching them use a club and save your ammo. Ducks and geese you gather in with an old Indian trick. You dig a long narrow trench and put seeds out for them to eat starting at the bank then leading into the trench. When the birds are in the trench you simply walk to the beginning of the trench and start killing the birds one at a time as you go along towards the end of the trench. the trench needs to be narrow enough that they can't spread their wings. These birds are unable to just jump strait up and so are trapped in the trench. The fact that they can duck down and hide in it makes them feel secure and all the easier to gather.

 

These methods are all totally unsporting and VERY productive.. Once you shift your point of view, food sort of ceases to be much of an issue. Nature makes it so that being out and away from people is like walking through a supermarket. Starving just isn't normally an issue. To tell you the truth for just one person, a BB gun is all you need. All birds are eatable and just the right size for a pot of soup.

 

The 12 ga is overkill for anything under a hundred and fifty pounds. If you are in bear country or expect people problems it is a must but for just nature you don't need it. I like the 20 ga better because the ammo is lighter. The slugs and buck shot are still fine for deer and the guns weigh less. I even like the 410 for short term stuff. I have a snake charmer that is small light and just dandy for pot meals when camping. I just don't trust it for bigger things that a 20ga will handle.

 

Now for a different point of view. If you expect the possibility of people problems you want something that will STOP them. The 22lr will kill them just as surely as a 44 magnum BUT maybe NOT before they hurt YOU. Think about this! Without hospitals that you can run to, what is the prognosis for you if I gut shot you with a 22LR? You are going to DIE. It will be slow and a just totally shitty experience to say the least.

 

The GI Joe types out there don't seem to understand that military style weapons and tactics are only good if you have a medic and evac to a hospital available. The damn assault weapons are specifically designed to NOT be very deadly. The aim in a war is not to kill all the enemy; rather they want to overwhelm the other side with casualties. The M16/AR15 is the least deadly weapon ever carried into battle by an army since BEFORE the civil war. It would be like sending people into battle in the spear and swords days with an epee'.

 

If you are going to deal with dangerous people in a post-apocalyptic situation you need to KILL them and do it before they have a chance to harm you. I vote for a deer rifle from a LOOONG way off or a pump 12 ga with #4 buck if they are close. The last thing that you want to do is get into a firefight with ANYONE! Remember, NO HOSPITAL. Think amputation as the only possible treatment for minor wounds to the appendages! The best way and ONLY sure way to win a gun fight is to avoid it. You are not trying to WIN anything you are just trying to live to fight another day. If you are lucky and good that day may never come.

 

If you are defending a fixed location things are different but nonetheless you still need to avoid a fight when possible. When not possible fight DIRTY and cheat! Set up killing fields so that you can do it without much danger to yourself. I like to dig them holes and ditches to hide in...then will place bombs in those places. After I spray the area with small arms fire they will go to the nearest safe place and jump in. BOOM! Securing a fixed redoubt isn't hard if you will just think ahead and make certain places obvious safe spots for the attacker to hide then fix that place up for them.

 

It all has to do with the mental SHIFT that you will ave to make ASAP! After a while in a post-apocalyptic world those that were slow just won't be there any more. You need to, as fast as possible, shed the idea that there are rules. You hunt to eat not for fun. You fight to survive not to make a point or win something except the right to wake up alive again tomorrow. Knowledge IS power. Arm yourself WELL.

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Your are correct on many levels

 

I do not accept your opinion on the 22 LR unless it is a single shot or bolt action, once a person is struck their ability

 

to return fire accurately and with enough concentration is diminished therefore you have the upper hand.

 

As far as dying goes that is either up to God or if many think up to shear luck have it as you like it.

 

another part not factored in is all those larger caliber will have eaten through their ammo relatively quick

 

my bug out scenario was just that bugging out means that a few things have happened to force you into

 

this frame of mind as in continuous attacks by armed groups / inability to hunt or garden and sustain yourself.

 

in some cities probably not the larger ones Americans will not accept a ongoing warfare some will bend together

 

sooner than others and some will annihilate each other.

 

there is no rhyme or reason well there is but mentioning it does no make it true it can just as well fall apart

 

using history we all remember the Hatfields and McCoy's, and then go way back to the hundred years war

 

no one could have predicted them and even after books only dealt with what happened it did not change the fact they did.

 

Another factor if it is as bad as some think I do not think it will get there my view is anti groups will be herded up and

 

put into concentration camps and ANTI what is the question?

 

If it is as bad as some think finding rifles and ammo will not be that hard as for thousands of years people have scavenged

 

battlefields and unable to carry the booty their greed gathered and a trail of dumped hardware would lead to their door.

 

many of the warlords started with a Found weapon and built a regional army from it look up General BUTT NAKED a real

 

human that came from being a village witch doctor to an army that terrorized a region the size of most states.

 

There are 1 firearm per person in the U.S. that is just what is in civilian hands if your on the move with a large rifle

 

weight will be a factor.

 

I just got through watching 2 episodes of Naked and afraid the new series it should have been an eye opener to any

 

testosterone fueled minds in each of these episodes the men were healthy had skills and training and they were the

 

ones that ended up the drag on the couple one was injured by a punctured foot and resulting infection the other was

 

beaten down by a horrific sunburn and bad water.

 

the women in both instances saved the men because if they had been alone their inability to get water and food would have

 

caused their decline and death.

 

Now this is not conviction of the males ability to survive just in these scenarios luck took a hand it could have just as well

 

been the other way round.

 

My point being factors beyond many's control will step in force them to dump gear or make alliances or cause their own death

 

if things are TEOTWAWKI expect a exponential decline of population in the first 30 days and in 90 it will level out

 

LEVEL is a misnomer depending on your area population and resources 1 a day to hundreds a day and it could last.

 

Water will be precious worth more than gold in some areas and wars will be fought over it in other areas wood for heat and

 

cooking food is always a issue but if you have water fire and food your still in a race with death as minor injuries

 

too many mosquitoes or a cold could put you in the grave less than a hundred years ago the life expectancy was 45

 

in the last century the polio measles and insect control as well as more doctors and sterile procedures have caused

 

an explosion of population when these and other treatments are no longer available the death toll from non war

 

related issues will decimate the population.

 

When was the last time you heard someone die from lockjaw? black water fever beaver fever VD or just a untreated infection?

 

injuries not related to war will kill just as many if we do not have accessibility to medications many now are NOT made in the U.S.

 

world wide prices will go to the value of platinum as Americans will not be subsidizing the cost we pay 10 times more than

 

the same drug in Africa we pay 5 times more than Canadians and Mexicans some medications are not available here at all.

 

this is not true of all drugs some made here are not expensive and some are how this gets priced is not as simple as supply

 

and demand.

 

as far as combat I think that the number of people who have experience are wide spread enough and respect it for what it is

 

a crap shoot as it does not matter how big or strong no matter the weapons people are killed every year by stray or

 

accidental bullets.

 

On a journey of unknown distance or length packing a heavy weapon is not a good idea and if it is not a caliber

 

you can strip a available ones to make yours my pick is .223 or .308 if your dragging any other caliber forget it

 

as there are more guns than shells for most calibers and in a problem calibers other than military manufacturing will

 

not be making hunting ammo.

 

12 gauge is even worse how many people have more than a few boxes of ammo it will in my opinion be the first to run

 

out of ammo the only upside and that is still doubtful, it is a military caliber.

 

22LR is still predicated on what you have thinking your be able to find any is not a good plan there will be found rounds

 

but betting your life on them NO but for small game they would be useful.

 

I think it would become very evident very quickly that any injury would cause death or maim "forever"

 

so any arm would be sufficient as long as you had ammo unless your against a "ruling class" your as well armed

 

as you need to be I stress that there is no resupply once you leave your home or shelter it will be scrounged

 

to a point of no return after many wars people returned to their home lands and found that they had to court

 

fight to get them back or lost them to the new rulers families or local favorite sons another issue is to have

 

documents stored away so if you decide to reestablish your land you are not throw off of it in certain states

 

if you fence or squats without argument from the owner for a certain number of years or pays the tax they

 

become the owners know your laws know your rights and have proof as building burn and records can be lost.

 

If someone is going to be a sniper and rob and kill you you have no defense from that ever if our troops with all

 

their armor air and ground surveillance communications and intel and they still are in danger you have 0 chance

 

except the ability of the person sniping you.

 

That is why I consider bugging out your last ditch effort as others have speculated roads will be blocked with

 

stalled or non running vehicles as the road from Kuwait during the first gulf war showed it was a shooting gallery

 

in our scenario I thing many road agents will take advantage of slow moving traffic and jump vehicles with the

 

amount of ex convicts and gang bangers and freaks I figure Texas alone has about 400,000 that is more than enough to

 

create a problem for those on the road or camping walking biking etc. as when food water or gear will attract attention

 

like a magnate.

 

when I mention bugging out that would be after all attempts to stay put and or supplies are gone or it becomes indefensible.

 

bugging out means you are leaving everything behind so what can you carry that is the issue in a BOV a lot but if

 

you have waited for a while you still have to have fuel and roads will be strewn with trashed cars so navigating will

 

be impossible but let us say your from an area that is not densely populated if you have to cross an area that is

 

back to blocked roads and ambushes / road agents there are 300,000 million people in this country even if 1/2

 

were gone that is still more than was here in the civil ware era and they had a lot attacks by road agents

 

gangs and locals as well as combinations WROL is not nice been there done that there is no right or wrong

 

there is the law of the gun or the groups with machetes or even sticks.

 

a man with a decent rifle can command a 1 mile area from his pivot point so have fun with bugging out

 

when your BOV craps all that equipment will have to be stashed or left so all that money and effort to buy store and

 

load into your vehicle and carry extra fuel and now your forced to leave it like a dead horse on the road.

 

every war ridden area has this same look vacant vehicles dead bodies and I am sure people with the same thoughts

 

as the people who's empty skull eyes look back as you.

 

I do think we are all able to make up our own mind as to the risks we are willing to bear so carry on just be aware of

 

what your facing America is not like anywhere else on the planet I have seen all kinds of hardware in private hands

 

so it would be spooky dangerous to wander around we have 10 times more of everything in higher quality and better

 

accuracy or conceal ability so trying to compare Bosnia or the Congo or else where is not even in the ball park.

 

some people have more ammo and firearms than some countries REALLY and better ones.

 

so consider well as if anything goes wrong as in real life some of this equipment will change hands many times

 

like gambling there is no telling what or where you will encounter let us say a TANK twin 50's belt fed

 

etc. and worse go ahead carry a bean shooter 30 cal because there are people in most every county here that

 

have something that will erase your azz off the planet while your in your BOV behind a concrete hiway barrier.

 

So ya'll have fun ya' hear.

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Snake, I don't want the upper hand. I want the person dead NOW! If I have the time a 22lr single shot is all it takes to kill BUT if I don't have time for a sinus shot I want something that will put them down fast before they can hurt me. If it is a 22lr then it has to be a Ruger 10-22 with hi-capacity magazines or in my case an AR-7 with long banana clips. I have both. I'd still rather have more power though.

 

In Texas if the balloon goes up big time, the inmates will DIE locked up in their cells. It may be cruel but that IS the plan. You have to understand, the officers live here. They will not turn a bunch of animals out onto their homes. I live out of Huntsville and my wife worked in the prisons for 25 years. THIS has been talked about and the wardens will never allow them out short of an order from the Governor. The ones in the trustee camps might walk but the ones locked are just screwed!

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Personally my guess is that all the major die offs will be along the east and west coast. Simply because that's where the major population centers are. Secondary ones will be along the Great Lakes and Gulf Coast.

 

Bloom and Doom also brought up a point as well...those who NEED various meds are screwed. The majority of them will also be part of the first major die off. Small children will not fare well either, expect to see the infant to toddler mortality rates go up as well.

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Danm, I love the trench method for killing ducks and geese. I never thought about that. Im going to try it later on this month at the lake. Just digging the trench and observing of course. I agree with you on the 12 ga and would submit that a 20 ga works just as well, especially for women, children and smaller stature men. Even with 12 ga ammo being more prevalent I think 20 ga has come into the main stream. My 12 year old has one and he absolutley LOVES it. My 20 ga is a bit too long for him. A little off topic but their is plenty of 20/12 ga target at Wally-world. Its pretty damn cheap and keeps us both sharp.

 

Ive been taking him out in the woods and showing him how to snare small game. We go fishing once or twice a month. The reason I retired from the Army was to spend more time with the kids and I couldnt be happier. I firlmy believe in passing on hard won knowledge and skills to your kids and any that want to learn.

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Snake, I don't want the upper hand. I want the person dead NOW! If I have the time a 22lr single shot is all it takes to kill BUT if I don't have time for a sinus shot I want something that will put them down fast before they can hurt me. If it is a 22lr then it has to be a Ruger 10-22 with hi-capacity magazines or in my case an AR-7 with long banana clips. I have both. I'd still rather have more power though.

 

In Texas if the balloon goes up big time, the inmates will DIE locked up in their cells. It may be cruel but that IS the plan. You have to understand, the officers live here. They will not turn a bunch of animals out onto their homes. I live out of Huntsville and my wife worked in the prisons for 25 years. THIS has been talked about and the wardens will never allow them out short of an order from the Governor. The ones in the trustee camps might walk but the ones locked are just screwed!

 

You are correct again Damn BUT I was talking about those out of prison or on parole ! not the ones locked up.

 

as far as your choice on a Ruger 10/22 IMO it is perfect if you could carry more as you may be more fit then you should

 

but then I would go .308 and the weapon would be up to the person weight would be a real factor

 

I love a 12 ga. but it takes too much weight of ammo in a vehicle its great short range but as it not the end all be all.

 

that is why I have decided to bug in as leaving only makes me die at a way faster pace it would have to get very bad

 

to push me out as for people leaving to a safe zone or other property the sooner you could leave the better as in a short

 

time road agents will be picking off the slackers as dd the Indians pick off the ones crazy enough to not go with a wagon

 

train.

 

History no matter what century still has the root of man how he acted what he did and was capable of the Rhine river

 

was a route of robber barons the middle east was filled with bands of nomads the west was filled with robbers killers and

 

Indians some rouge groups some by nature were warlike.

 

the pacific and the coasts even here were traveled by pirates and still are people and boats go missing all the time.

 

any barrier a pass line of trees hill top high building is a place for lookouts or snipers snares and leg traps

 

poisoned or not and they do not need weapons just wait until you die and go and take your sh*t poison

 

water was a way now we have pond material and an inventive person could build a small pond and by the time your

 

close enough to realize it is man made or if you snap that it is a trap too late brudda!

 

the mind of man is a inventive thing even a moron can get a brilliant idea so I do not believe for a second my training

 

will do sh*t it is beneficial but no one is immune how many trained military units have been ambushed?

 

how many people have been played? I am up there on the I.Q. scale but I know one thing I do consider it to a point

 

of disaster I try like hell to consider that I either missed something or an off chance event is possible.

 

you have to stay grounded and maintain mental flexibility keep it smooth cool and slow if you take the time it is on your side.

 

As far as prison emergency I am sure they will take care of ad seg and death row but many other may be let go to

 

produce a roving band even if it is only a dozen of them people need to know that criminals rarely go to prison on ONE

 

time law breaking it is usually a on going way of life until they cross some felony line too many times and they get busted.

 

so even the least of them has the potential for mayhem so if the decide to take measures it needs to be all of them.

 

and Governors well we have had some beauties from one end of the spectrum to the other so i have little faith we will

 

have a Rick Perry when we need one.

 

Wardens are iffy too most are very good some are NOT! so even if we get a order can we be assured it will be obeyed.

 

in most cases it will but there are still a lot of FREE THINKERS that may not follow their orders.

 

In any case all of the states will have problems of some sort or the other chemical plants prisoners unmanned dams

 

or draw bridges rouge police or military or those posing as them as what we have seen with our federal government

 

we cannot trust them they feel we are beneath them and have nothing but contempt or fear of us

 

hidden camps buying ammo and weapons increasing their power and stealth laws spying on us for years oh yea I trust them.

 

like a rat in a feed bin to steal all they can and sh*t on the rest.

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Can't argue with much of that. My plan for firearms in the BOB still includes my little 15oz 22 pack rifle for all the reasons you mention a 22 being great, but I will still have the bigger rifle and handgun for defense. The defensive guns will have limited ammo and having the 22 will help conserve it.

 

If I remember right from a check I did a while back the 22LR ammo I weighed came out to 320rds/lb. Can't get to many of anything for that weight. My pack rifle and 650rds of ammo barely breaks 3lbs.

 

For defensive use my 357 ammo runs about 32rds/lb and 223 is 40rds/lb.

 

I didn't have a 308 to check, but a 100gr 243 loaded round weighs .7oz and a 7mm Rem Mag 160gr loaded round weighs 1.2oz, so it would be somewhere around an ounce/round or 16rds/lb.

 

It's all a compromise.

 

I to will be using snares and absentee fishing. There are many of those tricks around. One thing to remember is that other predators and scavengers will be after the same meat. A rabbit or squirrel snared within reach of the ground won't last long in coyote country, spring snares can be your friend. Deer can disappear overnight too in coyote country, helped recover some bow kills that were down to skeletons and scraps by morning. Even a 1200lb cow will only last a night or two if they are thick.

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Well put catfish hunter

 

Now I do not want to completely discount Damns point of view in some areas you may find that heavy calibers an absolute

 

as you will need the range but if that happens you need at least a 22 pistol with a couple bricks of ammo as with new pistol scopes

 

etc. it will be a good secondary weapon and great hunting tool.

 

east Texas is fairly wooded some swamp and grass that would quickly grow out of control so line of sight will be effected

 

As Damn stated he wanted the aggressor dead I agree but I know they are not going to give me an open shot so a 200 round

 

load will not last if you go to 223 / 5.56 as Capt Bart has put so well it is minimal to useless.

 

if you go much larger catfish hunter has made the point weight at an ounce a shell that is very hard to deal with

 

if you have a cache at your bug out and it is within a few days travel take what you can carry just remember you are

 

not as nimble or quick when your loaded down so move carefully.

 

people also need to test their arms at night for muzzle flash if it spits too much you may as well walk around with a flashlight.

 

Each area will hae it's challenges wide open desert terrain is way different than here your clothing color weight of clothing

 

hell down to carrying tinder in a desert you do not in a wet high snow line or swamp you have to.

 

let me ask what good is an axe in the desert? a hatchet maybe but a machete we could opt for as dead wood dried cactus

 

and using it to take edible cacti a small knife to defang the thing.

 

here I need an axe and a long machete a bow saw is not for cutting trees it can get trapped and snap the blade but for

 

other uses it is great but if your in the frozen north a different set of tools for extreme weather survival etc..

 

so it is up to the user if they test or have experience with their gear they will have a better understanding of their needs

 

on a trap line caching some supplies is a good idea also when you leave a place never count that it will be there when you get

 

back in bad times.

 

A trap line could just be a trail to your favorite fishing hole as things change you may want to set traps when or if anything

 

changes.

 

people need to understand TEOTWAWKI is not all there is to live through a job loss extended health problems

 

having to live on less income you may have to live off the land to augment your pantry and get you over the hump.

 

I pray continually that we never see WROL etc. but there are personal reversal of fortune we all need to have the

 

ability to think on our feet survive whatever life gives us when it gives it to us and sometimes that is success some

 

people cannot handle it look at all the lotto winners if we are not grounded we will drift with the changing winds.

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Yeah, I'm not really supporting the 223 or bashing the 308, just illustrating the compromise. It just depends on each persons situation and what they feel fits it best. I pick the 223 for weight if I'm forced to bug out and use handloads with premium bullets that will expand and exit. Around the BOL I have choices so I can pick the right tool for the job at hand. Hopefully none of it is ever tested.

 

Definitely agree about switching tools for the job. My GB small forest axe gets traded for the ESEE machete each spring when the sting nettles get tall, Kifaru stove traded for the mosquito net. Each fall I switch back when the temp drops. All compromise.

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LOL, I'm with you Catfish hunter. I like the 357 mag. I have it in both revolver and rifle form. The ammo is a good compromise between the 5.46 and the 7.62. Also the Trapper lever action models are short and light to carry. Since I plan on bugging in I have three mossberg 12 ga and a huge stock of ammo for it. As far as the 308 size I have several deer rifles and a small collection of WW1 -WW2 era bolt action rifles. Two Nagants and three sardine cans of ammo for them. I also have a French Mas that is pristine and have been assured that it was never fired but the French. The only mark on it was where it hit the ground so the guy could surrender.

 

Thank goodness I stocked up big time in 1999. I'll never live long enough to shoot all those 22lr rounds. They used to sell them in buckets and I bought a bunch along with three cases of 12 ga buck shot. Unlike so many I've been active in survival for 40 years and so have always kept an eye towards keeping things well stocked. Every move I've made was scrutinized to bring me to a better place.

 

For me survival has been a never ending hobby. Even now when my long term survival is just not possible I still like the thoughts. I just hope if something happens that I can get my kids through the first year and out the other side. I will be a BAD dude to mess with. When you get older and things in your health start telling you it's getting time to stop this nonsense there is still the hope of a worthy death and a last battle.

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I have a couple lever guns and 3 revolvers in 357. I have added 3 of those guns recently so I am trying to build up some ammo for them as I can. Going from 2 to 5 guns firing the same cartridge changes logistics considerably, trying to switch everything over to 158gr JHP loads as I can. The little S&W model 60 is resisting so far it shoots 158's decent but really shines with 125's. I like to have at least 2 ways and preferably 3 to fire any cartridge I stock in quantity. I'm building up my 12 gauge, 22LR, 9mm, 223 and 357 right now as I can. I'm comfortable with what I have but always watching for deals. I handload for the longer range big game rifles and keep at least 30 loaded rounds for each plus extra components. I keep 250 loaded for my 6mm that handles anything where I live effectively and more efficiently on both powder and cost than my magnums. I like to store what I can as components that can be made into whatever I need instead of being locked into one thing. My 264WM is my favorite big game rifle now during normal times for it's ability to reach and great penetration on quartering shots, but in SHTF scenario's I won't be deer hunting with it. I won't be concerned with giant antlers quartering hard at last light, just meat and the 6mm kills just as dead on 90% of the shot angles and ranges with less meat damage. 6mm uses almost 20gr less powder per round also.

 

I wish I'd spent my money lots wiser when I was younger, I've only been prepping since 2009. I was into camping, hunting, fishing, horses, anything outdoors long before that so I had lots of gear and knowledge earlier but hadn't felt the need to go past that. When I did start I built the ultimate BOB first and spent lots of money because most of the high end lightweight gear crossed over into my backpack hunting also. Those early purchases were fun and I can't really say I regret them but the money could have been spent better elsewhere since I plan to bug in. Last year up until November I spent most of my budget on ammo and I'm sure glad I did now. The whole time I've been slowly accumulating food and medical so those are getting built up faster during the ammo shortage. I spend a set amount each month and evaluate where they can be best used, if I don't find a sale or good deal on something on my list toward the end of the month I just order some more beans, rice, etc. As I get more of the other gaps filled the amount of food I buy continues to increase. I live on a ranch as you might know from other posts so we have livestock for meat and land for gardening.

 

I'm in my mid 30's now and figure I will likely see some hard times in my life with all that is going on in the world. Got married last year so my priorities have changed some, my sister having kids that I love changed them some more. My parents live real close and are getting older too. Prepping for myself was simple but as I get closer to comfortable with what I have for my wife and I I'm working on getting supplies for them too. It is a work in progress and always will be. When I get older I'll likely be in a similar position to you, My brother in law is starting to get more interested in prepping and has valuable skills from his military background and civilian EMT job. I'll be providing for my family however I can and ready to stand against anyone who tries to take what I have been building.

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I learned when I was just a KID that messing with old men was a really bad move. My sorta Grandpa (first cousins Gramps) was 68, had one leg and still beat two punks half to death for pushing him aside and breaking in line at a movie theater. He said that they might have been ok but they called him an old f*!ker in front of a lady. Back then you just didn't say f*!k in front of a lady! If you did an honorable man was just almost honor bound to do something about it. They actually threw Grandpa Freeman in jail in Dallas until they got all the facts straight. I wasn't kidding about him almost beating them to death! He carried a heavy hickory walking stick and just teed off on them.

 

Old men don't have a lot to lose and a lot of them feel like me and would love to have one last dance and maybe take an escort with them to meet their maker.

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Catfish a few years ago I stumbled up on something that I had never seen before. Cases of military 357 mag. A case is 10 plastic packed (like MREs) 100 rnd bunches in a heavy plastic sealed military case. The rounds are ball 158G. That isn't my favorite but I got the cases for almost nothing because the dude that had them had got them in some sort of ammo purchase and he thought they were 9mm until he looked at every box. He was strictly interested in the 5.56, 7.62, 9mm and 45acp type of military stuff. I guess maybe MPs carried 357s. It does shoot good though. I also have three boxes 500 each of 158g semi-wadcutter bullets and several thousand cases, primers and unique powder. Get a Lee loader for your 357...actually get a 38special it will do either. When things loosen up on the reloading stuff stock up. I have a lot of reloading stuff but the lee loader is the most portable.

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Catfish the hardest part of prepping is almost impossible to start before things go down the tubes. The attitude flip that it will take to survive will be massive, painful for many and to today's sensibilities almost dehumanizing. Let me explore this in a simple scenario. You mentioned kids. I have them and I love them to pieces. The problem is that we have gotten totally out of the groove that people have lived in for centuries and that is going to make the trip especially hard where kids are concerned.

 

Even when I was a kid the rule was that kids should be SEEN but not heard! When an adult told you to do something you did it NOW. All you said was yes ma'am or yes sir. That was the way it was. Imagine being in a hole hiding from certain death with a kid today. You would tell them to be quiet and they would ask why. You would tell them to shut up and they would probably either ignore you or shut up and start flouncing around making noise. If you smacked them they would howl like you were gutting them and you would DIE!

 

Kids these days thing that they get a vote in things. They think that they have a right to an opinion even about things that they know less than nothing about. They think respect is something that you get for free and is without cost. Their little egos have been massaged with worries about any restrictions that might make someone feel disrespected or damage their idea that they are SOMEBODY important.

 

There are five people in that hole with you. you a woman and her three kids. One of the kids is a rebellious little snot that is endangering all of you. The Mother is not going to make the kids act right and will fight you if you try to. The kid eats everything it can find when rations are short. Will not work, will not ever be quiet and throws a fit every time it doesn't get its way. What are you going to do?

 

The survivors are going to "FIX" the problem. The rest will die eventually. It is sad but true that not everyone will be able to adjust. Those around them will have to handle the ones that won't change. It is going to be horrible and those that come out the other side will NEVER be the same. The biggest problem that will hold most back is a failure to understand their own nature. By today's standards nearly EVERYONE that was alive a hundred years ago was crazy and meaner than a rabid dog! There was a guy executed around the turn of the century, in Philadelphia I think, His body went to a medical school and when they were done with it they skinned it, sent the hide to a tannery and made wallets and coin purses out of it. They sold them as souvenirs. Executions back then were very public and people flocked to watch.

 

People back then were in touch with the thing that lives within us all. What you might call your soul fights with this constantly and civilization is dedicated to keeping these urges in control. The only difference between any of us and Ted Bundy is that he stopped fighting it. The problem now is that people in America prefer to DENY that this exists in us. They look at it as a sickness and it isn't. It is natural and our ability to control it is what separates us from rabid animals.

 

In the bad times a LOT of people will be totally unprepared to handle this and as in ALL wars and disaster areas, the beast within will break free. You will have to rein it in or become an animal but you will also need to let it out some too. The thing is the predator within that is what man is the best ever killer and took something that was small, weak and totally without physical armament and made him the king of beasts.

 

It is a battle that people now days are not at all prepared to fight. If you hold it back to much you will become prey and die. If you let it out too far you will lose your soul and are already dead. I hate to get so philosophical but this is going to be a deciding factor for nearly everyone. Charity is great but if all the Christians had done so there wouldn't be any left today. This isn't really about religion. It is about what being human really is. The part of man that pushed him to the top has been hidden and denied. It still pops out though whenever there is enough stress. Believe me because this is something that I KNOW. A lot of good young men and women in wars start to LOVE the hunt and the kill. In Afghanistan they “Hunt Hajji”. These people have lost control and now kill for the pure pleasure of it and don't care which side the victim is on!! This happens in ALL wars and at one time was considered the norm. Armies considered rape and pillaging to be the right of the winner. Women and kids followed the armies, killed the wounded and stripped them of their possessions. This was NORMAL!

 

We are better controlled now that any culture so far but understand we as a people are NO different than our predecessors. The culture is like a blanket laid loosely over us and is going to start to come off fast if things get stressful. Prepare now by deciding what you can and cannot live with. Understand that if you place unrealistic boundaries on yourself you will die either physically or inside when you betray your convictions.

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Very good and blunt posts. I like people who say what the mean and don't sugarcoat everything. I also agree with everything you said.

 

I sure won't claim that there wouldn't be problems with my situation the way I have it imagined. No plan lasts past the first engagement. One thing we have going for us is that we are a ranching family. Every one of my generation is in our 30's and everyone our age or older has had to put our favorite dogs and horses to rest. We see life and death play out in nature daily. We learned the reality of death early and have dealt with it since. We have lost family members, neighbors, friends. I guess what I'm trying to say is that growing up ranching you see the cycle of life. It makes a person appreciate a newborn calf being born, but it also makes you understand that eliminating the predators is part of your role in life. I shoot 30-50 coyotes per year keeping my part of the natural balance for our livestock. When it comes to SHTF I understand the cycle of life and survival of the fittest, I won't hesitate to protect my herd from predators that threaten them

 

As far as the kids, they are well on their way to learning that I mean what I say. I don't believe in idle threats, when I was young if I was told simply that X action would result in X consequence. The adults watched and followed through, if I did it anyway I got the consequences. No repeated warnings, no idle talk, just a calm voice saying "if you do X you will get X". They followed through and I learned to respect them for it. I hope that someday people will look at me with the respect that my idols get, not because of their money or influence but because they have lived their whole life and never needed more than a handshake as a guarantee. Their word was always enough. What they said they did.

 

Growing up and making a living ranching I am more in touch with nature than most, I work with it. Death is a part of life, not something to be feared. Avoided yes, but not feared. Actions generate reactions and EACH individual is RESPONSIBLE for THEIR own ACTIONS. That is a concept lost in our society today, it was always the situation or some other outside influence that made a person do something. Strong individuals with principles will pay a terrible personal price before letting anyone make them do something they believe is wrong and those people are to few in our decision making process today.

 

Damn I think I'd enjoy meeting you face to face if that time ever comes. You get right to the point on issues. I like to lay out blunt questions not to burst people's bubble and be mean but to make them think about their plan now rather than have to deal with an unexpected issue later. I like it when people call me out and make me think, that is the best way to improve my plans. Makes me face up to issues I might rather avoid.

 

I've spent a fair bit of time evaluating what my responsibility is in a SHTF situation that goes long term. My answer is that my first responsibility is to my immediate family, myself and my wife. If we are in the position to share my second responsibility is to my extended family of my parents, sister, and her children and husband. They are all a part of the ranch and would get a share of the ranch resources plus I would share what I can of mine. If I have children myself they will fit into the first responsibility. I have a very few close friends that I have an agreement with on prepping that would also show up but not without their own resources. That has been made clear since day one, if you come to me come with X to support yourself or you will not be welcome. The list of people that are invited is very small and they all have skills that got them invited in the first place. It sure isn't a flawless plan but everyone knows where they stand right now. Being clear on that now makes it clearer what needs done if someone steps out of line during a crisis.

 

Everything doesn't always work out for the best in the end even if you start with good intentions. Bad things happen to good people. I am trying now to put myself and those I feel responsible for in the best situation to survive and flourish in the environment I foresee. I am a hard person in my views but fair. I will likely become harder if things turn bad but will try to stay fair. I don't really want power or wealth, just left alone.

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Should have added we share political views also. I can't see the situation improving without a big slap in the face waking everyone up. Our national debt level alone with nobody even talking of balancing the budget let alone repaying it is enough to create that slap in my lifetime. Don't figure the first slap will change anything anyway, things will likely get bad.

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All good info for the prepping newbies that may not have had military or extensive travel as this opens a persons view

 

of the real world America has this fog in Detroit has over 500 murders a year but people go there and do business there

 

L.A. is no peace fest or any of our nations major cities but we have become so desensitized to violence most do not

 

consider it could happen to them.

 

Some of the best responses to what would you do is call 911 after a person is dead that is kinda a waste of time

 

lock my self in and call 911 well that has not worked either people have this thought that 911 is some kind of deterrent

 

to crime all it is is a reporting agency once the proper agency get the info then the wheels start and it is them a matter

 

of logistics do they have the people and equipment in the area to get to you in time.

 

In a time of crisis like riot civil unrest in conjunction with fires or other events can seize all emergency responses to a halt.

 

and when that happens you are on your own if you have a fire you need to have a way to fight it extinguishers hoses

 

etc if you have a anaphalactic shock you need an epipen or benadryl for burns you need ice cold packs I keep a bag of

 

flour in the freezer you need first aid kits and the knowledge to use them properly you are the first responder if no one

 

else can get there it took may hours for people to get to the recent tornado victims in Alaska the major earthquake

 

that hit Valdize took days for responders to get in.

 

L.A riots fires burned and no response looting robberies and rapes murders and yet no one came.

 

Looting has become a sport in the early part of the century we shot looters and rightly so there is nothing so disturbing

 

so irresponsible so selfish as to steal from the dead or people that cannot defend themselves or are injured and need help.

 

at any one time 15% of the people on this planet need to be eliminated as they are so without natural human love they are

 

deadly or completely destructive to everyone they encounter, and destroy utterly everything around them.

 

as mentioned above Ted Bundy but he is not rare many killers do not have the chance to do more recent events show

 

me we have never changed we have had doses of peace and prosperity but they soon fade and if we are not willing

 

to destroy the ones who make life hell it will remain that way how many killers have we let go after a stay in a prison

 

only to see them kill again same with rapists child molesters and thieves we need a hard and fast rule to execute them

 

with speed and brutality that they heap on their victims catch and release is not working gang members should be shot on

 

sight we use to have those orders on many of our gangsters in the 20's and 30's if they gave up fine but resistance or running

 

they were shot if they survived they were repaired and executed I think the time has come to execute all that we have positive

 

proof of guilt.

 

do not throw pearls before swine in other words do not circumvent punishment to those that will not change and we can see that

 

if we do not blind ourselves with legalism and rules set for decent people that make mistakes.

 

Equality is a myth we all know it but let us deal with it in the open reason out if it applies or not and act.

 

Even in difficult times we can be fair and or hard sometimes we need to allow people to suffer their decisions and

 

not get in the way of a life lesson.

 

We have seen coddled people become unsure and worthless men and women children we do a child injustice when we

 

do not allow after some good counseling to handle their own affairs sometimes with oversight but eventually they need

 

to learn to handle their own affairs.

 

We have forgot we have more judges than we think city local county state and federal and there are some that think once you

 

die it is finished I beg to differ that it is not each one of us is singular important and as science states matter can not be

 

destroyed Atheists think we turn to worm sh*t well that is the body but like what you post on the internet or that the internet

 

has access to on your computer it lives on long after your hard drive dies.

 

For all you Atheists I want you to tell your children the truth tell them they are not special tell them they do not matter

 

and nothing they do matters as in time no one will remember or care that there are no rules except if you get caught.

 

money and possessions are all that matter as you need to live for now and not worry about hell or the future because it

 

does not exist if you hurt someone don't consider it as there is no accounting some people need to be sh*t on they are

 

worthless anyway, only do things that make you look good when others are looking.

 

I mean after all if there is NO GOD why not rob steal cheat and gouge to your hearts content who is going to judge you

 

why not steal from your children treat your wife like she is unimportant and can be replaced at the drop of a hat.

 

what your afraid of prison if there is no GOD so what it is a college for the damned might as well get the degree.

 

and it is free all you have to do is invest the time free food lodging and clean clothes showers and dominoes.

 

I think I will choose another route as the world may go to hell but I do not have to the rules are easy only 10 of em'

 

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

 

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,

or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them

nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the

children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands,

to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

 

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day

is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter,

nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

 

5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

 

6. You shall not murder.

 

7. You shall not commit adultery.

 

8. You shall not steal.

 

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

 

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his

maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

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Snake, don't be so hard on atheists. They are like other people. Some are good, some are bad and most are a little of both. I'm not an atheist but to a Christian I might be even worse. I think that a person should act in an honorable fashion not so they won't go to hell and not because they WANT to go to heaven but just because it is the RIGHT thing to do. My code of honor is as old as the pyramids and as unshakable as stone in me because it was the foundation that my personality was built on.

 

The ten commandments outside of the one concerning gods is simply telling you what is right and honorable. Even that given though if the ox is in the ditch you pull him out EVEN on the Sabbath. The Sabbath by the way is Saturday not on Sunday as any good Jew can tell you. My problem with all Religions is that people run them and in so doing pick and choose to do or not do as they wish.

 

Right now it is actually hard to tell the good from the bad. Ted Bundy seems like a great guy right up until the moment he got caught. When a society breaks down a lot changes. A lot of people DON'T do bad things because they are cowards and afraid they will get caught. Take that away and out pops the monster. In a matter of days things can go so far down the tubes that it is as if the culture of peace had never existed. It is already beginning to break down. People are changing fast and good manners, honor and peaceful existence is getting more and more messed up every day. People are beginning to break down under the stress that our uncertain state is causing.

 

I am good by MY definitions not because of any outside pressure. I do as I do because I WILL be my own judge and in the end will probably find myself wanting. I do the best I can but the battle is endless and nobody is perfict.

 

In the end we will each have to judge ourselves be sure that you can live and die with your actions. Survival is useless if you lose yourself.

 

Snake, I assure you that my maker will be a lot more forgiving that I will be. Hell is the place you go when you can't face your own judgment.

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Well Damn I am not as hard as it will be and I have good friends that are Agnostics and Atheists that is.

 

I just don't want good people to miss the train and there are quite a few that have been harmed by to stern

 

or to weak or no exposure to or to the weird kind there are a few of those out there.

 

and yes be your own judge is as it should be if you have an iota of decency you should fair well

 

people that are preppers are a combination of elements I feel will generally make the right decisions

 

when it comes sheeple on the other hand will be bat sh*t all over the place.

 

I only disagree with those that say there is more than one way to heaven as posted there is what the Biblical

 

message states I try not to get into IF's as they cloudy the water those that do or had not the contact with

 

Christianity as you say I am certain He will be just.

 

everyone before the death of Christ was in the bosom of Abraham when Christ descended he preached the gospel

 

all that accepted it were taken out with Him that includes non Jews as far as my understanding.

 

when Christ left {3 days} he took the keys to death hell and the grave, food for thought.

 

But on the subject of survival in TEOTWAWKI or WROL we have a consensus we agree on 90% and as it is

 

still to be lived through in an American scenario I hope we never have to find out as the Civil War was it could be very brutal

 

it seems easier to have compassion for strangers but your own kind most think they should know better so it more dangerous

 

As we have seen society slip into darkness and criminality turn savage and ruthless {not that it was not before}

 

but we seem to be getting a sicker breed of punk now of days more serial killers and the methods of their madness more

 

perverted.

 

so this will be a strange journey and if the recent past has any clues to offer it will be CRAZY we just had 3 girls held captive

 

for 10 years numerous child murders by their own families a gang in Houston raped and as horrible as it could be for them

 

tortured them and then murdered them one had to watch the other the killers were not executed that was the depraved part to me

 

if TSHTF all of these minimalistic tendencies will be unleashed I cannot remember if it was oregon or washington where a man

 

walked in and killed 3 while the were eating execution style anything you have read recently is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

And they are getting like ted bundy hard to spot and so normal looking they blend in.

 

Like the comedy skit about serial killers when the reporter is interviewing the neighbor, " he was always nice helped everyone

 

never a harsh word" quote!

 

Drug use will skyrocket like in Africa the warlords used drugs and allowed their soldiers {some mere children} to rape and

 

kill in what ever way entertained them to keep control and keep them strung out and give them the best looking women

 

and more drugs and food for being a fearless fighter.

 

it is not new but has been used in Somalia and the pacific rim with pirates clans if anyone thinks that the millions to

 

buy out a captive goes anywhere but the warlords pocket just look at their wardrobe not exactly like our Mafia with

 

everyone wearing 1,000 dollar shoes and driving a new caddie no more like they get a newer ripped up NIKE shirt

 

and whatever they can steal and the warlord allows them to have.

 

It is a crazy world and we do not need it here IMHO.

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I believe in being kind to all I meet every day. Makes ME feel better. I try to treat people like I like to be treated. I believe in being as prepared as possible for the worst case scenario while praying that the best case scenario will occur. Reality lies somewhere between the two extremes.

I find it behooves me to associate with good decent people from all faiths, ethnicities and political affiliations-with the exception of avowed Communists, Marxists and Maoists. They are neither decent nor good. They seek to enslave people and force them to THEIR ideology and in my belief structure that is Satanic. I believe that there is an intentional Balkanization or tribalization of this Republic; by the purveyors of the Progressive Plantation Punch drinkers. I cannot in good moral conscience support nor condone any force, fear or intimidation used by any group to bend the agnecy of the people of this great country to THEIR political dogma, regardless of the entitlements used to entice the sheep to slaughter or slavery. I don't care what color, race, creed religion anyone ius, as long as they are good decent people, I want to associate with them. Unlike the rabid ideologues that support the entitlement crowd(Free Cheese Brigades) rioting in support of THEIR civil rights alleged violations, we are being used on a wholesale basis by the political pimps and the New Slavery Masters of Progressivism. It's time for all good decent people to stand together to fight this evil influence within our society and to speak out against this intentional divisiveness being caused straight out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue in D.C. and his Puppet-Masters. The sheeple who continue to faun and worship at the Altar of Entitlements are too stupid to see how the shackles of the New Slavery have already been placed willingly around their necks, and now they are nothing but slaves. They will never wake up. We can.

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If we all lived this we would need very little government as we would be our brothers keeper like you stated

 

and I agree I don't look at color religion or anything else I try to help anyone I can as far as I am concerned

 

God wants me to love my neighbors sometimes it is not easy but I did not recall anywhere did it say it would be.

 

so I do my best sometimes like everyone else I just do not do what I am suppose to or at all so pick myself up

 

and try again but like others if I get cut off on the hiway I may forget myself and shoot you the FINGER

 

now I will feel badly about it but rest assured I know how, I know all the four letter words in many languages.

 

and sometimes they come out before my asking God to forgive them and help me shut my mouth.

 

Recent studies have shown that praying in the spirit turns on chemical and bodily actions that increase the bodies

 

ability to heal itself by 40% + and these areas of the brain are not active at any other time if science does not stop now

 

they are going to prove themselves right out of a job.

 

once people realize that we / they do not need political pimps as you called them TPSnodgrass and we can do better

 

and I would rather be here to help others it is just that simple I get a kick out of it and want to do more

 

when I can I help distribute food sometimes I do other things the weird part is my world is pretty good it runs

 

like it is on auto pilot sometimes it is strange even to me that what the word says works I got the want's last month

 

but I had not the money well one day someone hand me what I had the want's for and I said I could not afford it

 

the answer was it's was a present not a sale funny it was exactly what I wanted still scratching my head over that one.

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