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catfish hunter

Help me answer a friend, how much ammo is enough?

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Got an email from an old friend yesterday asking how much ammo is enough to have on hand? He told me what he has, interested in seeing comments about if it is enough or not. I'd like to get others opinions before I answer him.

 

He has:

two AR rifles, 2500 rounds

four 9mm pistols 1000 rounds

three 357 revolvers 1300 rounds (38 & 357 combined)

two 243 win bolt rifles 350 rounds hunting ammo

two 270 win bolt rifles 150 rounds hunting ammo

eight 22LR rifles or handguns 10k rounds

two 12 gauge shotguns 500 rounds (50 buckshot, rest 6 or 7 1/2 high or low brass)

 

My thought is to start re-loading for everything with his current brass once supplies become available. Needs more 223 and 9mm because those guns can eat a supply fast. Also maybe more buckshot?

 

Thanks for you helping me to help him.

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You can never have "enough" ammo. I would increase his stock of .243 and .270, along with 9mm (if possible) first. Granted, the 9mm will probably only be for protection, that small amount leaves absolutely nothing for target practice or training. I would say a bare minimum of 4,000 rounds of that if he intends to teach anyone else how to shoot.

 

.243 and .270 would be very difficult to get in my area after a SHTF/EOTWAWKI event, so those stocks would be very important as well.

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Good luck with that!"I would say a bare minimum of 4,000 rounds''....REALY That much of everything??

I hope your friend has put up 3 years of food and water first!!

bought enough land to plant and feed his family the rest of his life also..Have all the toilet paper he may need for 5 years..

 

Spent enough time in leaning skills to start Rebuilding after TSHTF..

But what the heck if he can afford it.....JMO...

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I agree with you, I guess it will depend more on his mentality. I have far more guns than I can shoot, so I keep extra ammo on hand for the others, assuming I will need to teach someone at least the basics of that firearm. I also have snap caps in 9mm, .40, .45 and 12 gauge for just such an occasion.

 

Catfish, our short side discussion has brought up an interesting point. To better advise him of how much ammo he's going to need, I think we'd need to know his plans and mentality. If he's planning on staying mobile, he's going to plan on leaving a lot of that behind. If he's planning on staying local and rolling solo or with a small group, then we might want to focus more on some calibers and not worry about others. If he's planning on having some trustworthy neighbors or non-prepared family members show up, then he'll need significantly more ammo to bring them up to his level of training.

 

Also, urban/rural is going to dictate how he focuses on ammo. In an urban environment, I'd say go heavier on shotgun and pistol ammo, followed by AR and then hunting rifle ammo. If he's in a very rural area, may want to consider the opposite prioritization.

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Good points, I'll outline his situation

 

He would be leaving his home on the outskirts of a large city (he chose a location where 10 minutes driving has you on gravel roads, lots of possible routes) to go to his dad's rural farm a couple hours away. Two mid-size SUV's would have to haul anything he doesn't pre-position at his dads. His dad's place has a large 2 story farmhouse. It sits at the top of a low hill and has excellent visibility around it for defense, but is also visible for about 1.5 miles from a couple un-paved county roads. Around the house is 80 acres of grass and 160 acres of farmground. About a mile away they have another pasture with good upland bird and deer hunting, plus a couple good ponds.

 

His wife is competent with her handgun but doesn't shoot the long guns. She has a good 9mm to keep around the house for when he is traveling for work, she can shoot it accurately at close range and is familiar with it for re-loads, clearing jams, etc. His dad grew up as a farmer using guns for pests and hunting birds his whole life. My friend hunted birds his whole life, grew up plinking and shooting 22's alot. I've hunted birds and big game with him, he is good with a rifle or shotgun, decent with a pistol. None of them have any tactical training currently. My friend and his wife have 2 children between diaper and school age. Unlikely any other family members would be showing up currently.

 

The terrain is rolling hills, mix of brushy fencerows and draws dividing up 80-160 acre farm fields.

 

As far as knowledge and skills plus food preps etc he doesn't believe on stocking huge amounts of food now. The farm has a big diesel tank and small tractor/implements to farm part of the land near the house and he has heirloom seeds stored to plant there. He has an uncle that ranches nearby who runs 5 cows for my friend, he would move them to his acreage if he moved back there. Him and his dad have enough food stored to get the family to get through 4 months not counting game or livestock. I feel that this needs increased but everyone has their own opinion and comfort level. Water is the biggest initial drawback I see in his set-up, he has a new 1500 gallon plastic ag tank in the barn he could fill as long as the rural water keeps working. Without that he would have to put it on an old grain truck and haul it in. There is no flowing water real close, nearest creek is 3/4 of a mile away. There is a pond in the 80 acre pasture about 250yds from the house. He has a Sawyer gravity filter, but nothing large-scale.

 

Probably more info than anyone needed, but there it is. Ammo would be for hunting a limited number of birds and deer, plus pest control and defense.

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Actually that answers a whole bunch of questions, so that's good!

 

I would say he should focus on AR and hunting ammo first, then shotgun ammo, then handgun ammo last. With the distances involved and the semi-remote nature of the location, a handgun isn't going to be terribly useful. The generally accepted range of a handgun is 25 yards, shotgun 50 yards, an AR out to about 100 yards and a hunting rifle 200 yards. He has the same issue I do, I have many more guns than people to use them!

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I've been trying to talk him into setting up a reloading bench at his dad's place. With a little load work he could probably find loads with 4350, 4831, or many other powders that would let him stock one type of powder. Buy a couple 8lb bottles of that powder and 5k large rifle primers, plus a quantity of bullets the rifles shoot accurately and he would be set. He could then load what he was using most, either 243 or 270, as he needed it. Adding 223, 357, and 9mm loading equipment down the road wouldn't be difficult either.

 

I've seen him shoot deer at close to 300yds leaning against a tree, from a sandbagged post on the top floor he could reach quite a ways with the 243 or 270 and the right bullet. The problem with the house is that with only 2 shooters that can handle a rifle well, there are to many approach lanes to cover. I've been reading several books on defense written for preppers and thinking pretty hard about what I read. If you want to have someone on watch duty at all times and be able to react quickly to a threat it takes numbers. I've been evaluating my group more against the material I've read, and figure we have 3 very good shooters. One has military training, two are avid hunters and shooters capable of getting on moving targets fast and who practice regularly at 300-600yds. 4 more of them are average shooters, casual hunters and target shooters. They grew up shooting but shoot less than 300rds per year at game or targets. The last two can shoot but aren't skilled. Thinking they would be best used re-loading for the better shots.

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1K per center fire rifle and pistol more is fine.

try to have 2 of each caliber reasoning if one breaks you have another {and they can break}

 

I have given my opinions on firearms and they are not for any reason except they are sturdy rugged for heavy use

not because some moronic gun writer or grandpa said X.

I know what I have not seen broken simple functional and safe.

 

bolt actions Mauser rifles Ruger Winchester and Savage {notice no Remington}

lever actions marlin and winchester

rimfire ruger semi auto and marlin lever action Smith & Wesson revolvers

shotguns PUMPS Remington 870 or Ithaca 37

pistols browning colt Ruger Sig

revolvers Ruger or Smith & wesson

 

many weapons are dangerous or crap and many I would never own period.

 

rimfire you need to have 3K per weapon as you cannot reload for it and you need at least 1 single shot for shorts no powder shells

and other specialty shells

 

shotgun 500 and enough primers 1.000 powder 4 pounds and shot / lead 100 pounds to reload it a couple of times

00 buck #4 buck at least 100 of each 100 slugs couple of cases of bb or #5 bird shot I do not even own any well a few boxes

that I got in some trading

 

Reloading is a corner stone of firearms since flint lock rifles and pistols having a bullet mold gas checks and jacketed bullets

powder & primers to load your fired cases.

 

It is so expensive now that some of these numbers seem outrageous but this is what many of us have done for years

if you ain't got a 1,000 you have nothing.

 

I guess the rule of thumb is for a large rifle for every factory shell you can reload it 5 to 10 times depends on power level

you load at max reloading data 5 times this is for bolt rifles you cannot fudge with semi auto if you want them to function

properly and they chew up brass some destroy it first firing know your weapon and it will help you figure your ammo needs.

 

using these figures you can figure lead, powder stock you need.

7,000 grains equal 1 pound

16 ounces in a pound

One ounce equal 437.5 grains

 

 

I did not include semi auto rifles they are an animal unto themselves the difference between a good one and crap is

knowledge and experience I have seen some posts and while trying to keep my composure and not scream are you

f____ng kidding so I will pass on any conversation on this post about semi auto rifles.

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One thing to keep in mind is training......the best will be a mix ot precision games such as who can shoot the closest to a point, or rabbit shots ...where you set up a wire and a sliding target. You can use pellet guns for this just pick ones that resemble the real ones you have. Have the people with training conduct classes and create training senarios to get everyone familiar with possible events that they would need to respond to. If there is a paint ball site nearby, it could be used for some tactical training. Realism in training will prepare them for the future.

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I realize I am the minority on this one!

 

As much ammo as he currently has listed, I think he could at least slow down. What is the condition of the rest of his preps? He already has enough firepower for at least a squad. Does he have food/water/medical/clothing/shelter covered also that well???

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Devildog no your not I think many know as you

 

prepping is a multilevel idea

 

1. land and habitat home, cave whatever as the rest will depend on it bug in or out you need protection from the elements.

2. Water numerous ways to collect treat and store it on a continuing basis.

3. food immediate rations seeds for growing canning equipment salting drying smoking etc books and information.

4. medications 90 days +++ FIRST AID ++ and medication natural and homeopathic oils spices dried or powdered more books

first aid and life saving classes even rope work as many injuries are on or in caves hills .crossing rivers

5. power collection, heating or cooling can consist of passive or mechanical methods from a small solar dry cell battery charger

to generators and large solar systems water, wind even geomagnetic.

6. defense weapons and or arms for hunting also, ammo reloading if for even one caliber would be great

7. tools and equipment to make a living or help you in hard times

8. plans for any and all perceived or know events security communications code words rank structure daily operations etc.

 

people that live in apartments and if they have transportation have different requirements than people who live in the suburbs

or country.

but any instance mandates

housing / protection from the elements depending on how severe hours will kill

water because in 3 days your dying or close to it,

food in 7 days your weak and burning muscle much longer and you will not have strength to survive

defense if your alive and have a decent dry place to stay someone will want it and slavery never died the world over

it still exists children and women mostly.

 

Some food I like to think 1/4 needs to be freeze dried pouches ready to eat canned food is great but is heavy

and should you be forced to move it will not be as transportable.

 

There are many angles to disaster planning and long term prepping for financial, unemployment or catastrophic events

anyone not able to live 90 days without outside help is in real trouble, even many financial planers one on TV she states

1 year of money to pay your bills and insurance in case of many personal possible tragedies.

seems like she would agree with prepping on this more basic level.

 

let's face it it is not easy but it has it's rewards it helps you feel confident in most any situation and you can get some of this

as you find it if there is a good deal on something may as well if it is a long term item.

Some is predicated on what your able to do if your not a carpenter much more than the basics may not be what you need to

concentrate on.

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I'd agree with DevilDog as he is planning on bugging out. Most of this ammunition will need to be staged at his bug-out location, as his bug-out vehicle will probably be pretty full-up with other things that can't be staged.

 

The thread is specifically on ammunition and how much is enough, not his other preps!

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I'd agree with DevilDog as he is planning on bugging out. Most of this ammunition will need to be staged at his bug-out location, as his bug-out vehicle will probably be pretty full-up with other things that can't be staged.

 

The thread is specifically on ammunition and how much is enough, not his other preps!

 

Good point, I got it off target myself discussing his other preps and defense in #'s. My fault.

 

More opinions on the ammo count are very welcome.

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The detailed plan is important and would certainly lead to him switching priorities up, as well as changing ammo counts.

 

How is he planning on carrying this ammo since he is bugging out? The factory packaging, ammo cans, plastic bins, etc. That would determine how much he needs to have on hand also. And magazines are important pieces of the puzzle.

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He will be using the 2 SUV's to get to his Dad's place. He lived a few blocks from a real bad crime area in a large city for a few years where riots would have been at his door in 30 minutes or less he figured if they started. He picked his new place in a "safer" town for it's access to gravel roads within a 10 minute drive. He has multiple ways to reach the gravel roads without hitting any major intersections, bridges, or other blockages from his new home. Once there he has multiple routes to his dad's place. That quantity of ammo easily fits in the cargo bay of one SUV with room to spare for other goods.

 

One thing he has going for him is a pretty good awareness of what early warning signs to signal it's time to leave. We swap books back and forth that deal with such things. He has smaller BOB's packed just in case. I wouldn't forsee anything preventing him from reaching his dad's place by vehicle except an EMP as long as he leaves quick enough. Worst case his Dad has an old farm truck that he could come meet them with provided they can work out the details.

 

Some good things to mention to him next time we talk. If it was me I'd be pre-positioning more things at his Dad's but that's not an ideal plan either. His Dad lives alone so there are lots of times nobody is home to prevent theft. His house is seldom empty with a wife who works from home so he feels things are safer there.

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For bugging in.

 

3,000 rds for each rifle.

2,000 rds for each handgun.

 

For bugging out.

 

200 rds for one rifle.

100 rds for one handgun.

A brick of 22lr, 500 rds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In GOD I Trust, Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them!

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If bugging out with a vehical, i'll be taking all my ammo with me that i may have at hand. With my army friends & family members we are about 50 people strong, heading to one of four bugout locations. We have a convoy with multiple routes to our locations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In GOD I Trust, Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them!

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200 rounds that is a good number for carry and staging is another way of distributing so you do not have to carry

 

as much when you bug out I thought I was clear but Devildog is right.

 

as far as I am concerned I may not can carry it walking but in a vehicle I can let us say you have a bug out but in the

 

time to go you have to lay down some cover to leave so if you only have 200 because that is all you can carry

 

now you have less and you may be held up for a while so you need to have more nothing lasts forever eventually

 

you will be able to move or haunt the place forever.

 

there are no pat answers each person and situation will be different and as you will be the person who pays the price

then it's up to you.

 

I rather prep for a long situation and not need it than run out at a inopportune time secondary plan to move in a vehicle and

 

if I cannot I can always fall back to humping it out.

 

the bug out bag will have what I need separate so it is a no brainer grab and go better to have a few plans ad be forced to

go with the worst instead of only having a worst case scenario plan.

 

and who says a cache needs to be far off on a property line in a hidden part of a structure many innocuous places

and if only enough to make it a day out in each place leave what you do not need at the moment in the future you can

always come back.

 

there are no rules no linear thinking sometimes thinking at ground level makes you spatially impaired think 3 dimensions

and camouflaged

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Only eight 20-30rd mags for the AR's now he said, but 8 more on back-order that should ship soon. Also has a couple 10rd mags he uses for coyote hunting.

 

For the 9mm pistols he has two full size semi-autos, 8 mags for one, 11 mags for the other. 2 for his little CC pistol and the last is a revolver.

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