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MommyLiberty5013

Active Shooter - Engage or Not IF you are not Law Enforecement or Military Trained

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Almost forgot...

 

CPRC § 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.

 

You may still have to deal with lawyers...

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Almost forgot...

 

CPRC § 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.

 

You may still have to deal with lawyers...

 

Notice the word defendant do they mean the person who defends or a person with charges on them?

 

and that only covers the actor any innocent bystanders that are traumatized by blood splatter may need your home and car

 

to feel better.

 

your quoting law correctly as I can see VB I just have no faith in it.

 

and of course a lawyer will be involved one way or another most all involved in the justice system are lawyers.

to me it is like dealing with double jointed hooker you don't know whats going to happen but look for your wallet to go missing.

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Since we're dealing with lawyers I'd say the use of the word 'defendant' applies to both the person who 'defended' and my guess is that the DA will try to use you to get re elected so you will probably be charged as well making your once again the defendant.

 

....went to a funeral today and didn't feel like changing wallets to look more civilized so I used my biker wallet with a chain. One lady noticed and kind of sniffed and asked why I had to have a chain on my wallet. I looked at her and smiled, and told her that my friend had told me that were going to be lawyers present....seems she didn't want to talk to me after that.

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One thing a shark will not eat and that is a lawyer. Just out of professional courtesy. DAs are not much better. They all are lawyers. It matters not if you were right or wrong, it only matters if they win their case. Some DAs will throw you under the bus to make it easier on the defense or make a deal which makes you look like an idiot.

If you are on the stand and a defense atty. starts complementing you.....look out. He is getting ready to try to make you look foolish.

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Very Tough Question. I think it totally depends on the situation. I don't think I have it in me to watch innocent people being gunned down without trying to take action. I've hunted and shot my whole life and have had it beat into my head from a very young age to always be aware of what is behind what I am shooting at, where does the bullet go if it misses/overpenetrates. If I had a clear shot angle I think I would take the shot. If there was a way to get the innocents behind me, clear of the shooter I'd try to get them out of there and cover their escape from behind an object that would stop a bullet. Preferably I'd just hole up with my gun covering an entryway and wait for the law to arrive while people left behind me. In reality a mass shooter has all the advantages, they get to pick the time, terrain, and weapon so being able to shoot from cover at a reasonable range would likely not be an option.

 

I haven't ever had a tendancy to freeze in tense situations in the past, but I can't say how I would react to seeing people being shot in front of me. I hope I never can. I've had starving, sick, or injured animals come at me before and my instinct has been to draw and fire without concious thought, just as a reaction. I shoot alot and have grown up carrying guns around the ranch, so the instinct and muscle memory are there. I'm not at all sure that the German Shepard/Husky cross someone dumped on our road that attacked me is the same thing as a human with a gun though. In that situation I put my gun on him instantly and backed away to the safety of the tractor steps while he charged me, only shooting when I had reached the steps and the range was short enough a vital hit was ensured. Time seems to slow for me in those situations while I react and only later does the "what if" hit me and make me shake and thank God I came through safely. Another time an idiot I went raccoon hunting with shot a coon in the rear that dropped 5 ft from me and was pretty sure I was what hurt him. My Ruger Single Six was suddenly in my hand and I shut him down a foot from my boot as he came at me. In those situations I reacted quickly and accurately, but again it's not shooting at a human with a gun who can shoot back. Stakes were not as high and the target wasn't human.

 

I think if I was in the situation I'd try to save as many lives as possible. If I was confronted with it in reality I might freeze and try to save myself, I don't think anyone ever knows unless it happens. I do know that whatever the legal ramifications I'd only be able to look myself in the mirror for the rest of my life if I did my best to stop the shooter. After the fact I'd rather die than live with the knowledge that I did nothing. Things happen fast though and all those feelings/thoughts come into play after the fact and don't necessarily dictate actions during the event.

 

One thing I heard from an expert on mass shootings on the radio last week makes a guy think. Since 1950 there has only been 1 mass shooting, which is considered 3+ victims, on ground that wasn't a "gun free" zone. Such criminals he said want to do the maximum possible damage so they can have a high body count and be remembered. Even if they intend to commit suicide, they want to be in an area where they can do their damage before anyone can stop them with a bullet. He also said many of them view a painful death or immobilization from someone else's bullet that may not kill instantly much different than suicide where they can make sure they don't have time to feel anything.

 

I'm a firm believer that the best way to reduce these mass shootings is through armed citizens who can handle their firearms responsibly. Up to this point in history there has never been a better way to stop a bad person with a gun than through a good person with a gun. Never has pacifism worked to reduce crime or violent behavior. There will always be humans looking to improve their situation by taking from others, there always have been and always will be. Look elsewhere in nature, animals fight over the best food source, water hole, etc. People do the same thing at a different level. Think of a school situation. An active shooter enters and engages one classroom. Say the teacher next door is armed and has their class move to the most protected corner of the room. The teacher sets up to cover the doorway at an angle that forces the shooter to enter the room fully before being spotted. The teacher then gains the tactical advantage if the shooter attempts to enter the room. If the shooter goes down the hallway the opposite direction the teacher can move out of the room and have a potential shot at the shooters back. This may not be how the situation unfolds, but it's as likely as anything.

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Very Tough Question. I think it totally depends on the situation. I don't think I have it in me to watch innocent people being gunned down without trying to take action. I've hunted and shot my whole life and have had it beat into my head from a very young age to always be aware of what is behind what I am shooting at, where does the bullet go if it misses/overpenetrates. If I had a clear shot angle I think I would take the shot. If there was a way to get the innocents behind me, clear of the shooter I'd try to get them out of there and cover their escape from behind an object that would stop a bullet. Preferably I'd just hole up with my gun covering an entryway and wait for the law to arrive while people left behind me. In reality a mass shooter has all the advantages, they get to pick the time, terrain, and weapon so being able to shoot from cover at a reasonable range would likely not be an option.

 

I haven't ever had a tendancy to freeze in tense situations in the past, but I can't say how I would react to seeing people being shot in front of me. I hope I never can. I've had starving, sick, or injured animals come at me before and my instinct has been to draw and fire without concious thought, just as a reaction. I shoot alot and have grown up carrying guns around the ranch, so the instinct and muscle memory are there. I'm not at all sure that the German Shepard/Husky cross someone dumped on our road that attacked me is the same thing as a human with a gun though. In that situation I put my gun on him instantly and backed away to the safety of the tractor steps while he charged me, only shooting when I had reached the steps and the range was short enough a vital hit was ensured. Time seems to slow for me in those situations while I react and only later does the "what if" hit me and make me shake and thank God I came through safely. Another time an idiot I went raccoon hunting with shot a coon in the rear that dropped 5 ft from me and was pretty sure I was what hurt him. My Ruger Single Six was suddenly in my hand and I shut him down a foot from my boot as he came at me. In those situations I reacted quickly and accurately, but again it's not shooting at a human with a gun who can shoot back. Stakes were not as high and the target wasn't human.

 

I think if I was in the situation I'd try to save as many lives as possible. If I was confronted with it in reality I might freeze and try to save myself, I don't think anyone ever knows unless it happens. I do know that whatever the legal ramifications I'd only be able to look myself in the mirror for the rest of my life if I did my best to stop the shooter. After the fact I'd rather die than live with the knowledge that I did nothing. Things happen fast though and all those feelings/thoughts come into play after the fact and don't necessarily dictate actions during the event.

 

One thing I heard from an expert on mass shootings on the radio last week makes a guy think. Since 1950 there has only been 1 mass shooting, which is considered 3+ victims, on ground that wasn't a "gun free" zone. Such criminals he said want to do the maximum possible damage so they can have a high body count and be remembered. Even if they intend to commit suicide, they want to be in an area where they can do their damage before anyone can stop them with a bullet. He also said many of them view a painful death or immobilization from someone else's bullet that may not kill instantly much different than suicide where they can make sure they don't have time to feel anything.

 

I'm a firm believer that the best way to reduce these mass shootings is through armed citizens who can handle their firearms responsibly. Up to this point in history there has never been a better way to stop a bad person with a gun than through a good person with a gun. Never has pacifism worked to reduce crime or violent behavior. There will always be humans looking to improve their situation by taking from others, there always have been and always will be. Look elsewhere in nature, animals fight over the best food source, water hole, etc. People do the same thing at a different level. Think of a school situation. An active shooter enters and engages one classroom. Say the teacher next door is armed and has their class move to the most protected corner of the room. The teacher sets up to cover the doorway at an angle that forces the shooter to enter the room fully before being spotted. The teacher then gains the tactical advantage if the shooter attempts to enter the room. If the shooter goes down the hallway the opposite direction the teacher can move out of the room and have a potential shot at the shooters back. This may not be how the situation unfolds, but it's as likely as anything.

 

Catfish,

Your theory sounds good.....but it will not work in your school environment. You cannot expect teachers to be cops. My wife is a teacher she will not act like rambo and engage an active shooter. They may try to save their own lives but not someone else's nor should they be expected to do so. They do not get paid enough. They are not combat trained and from what I have seen in my lifetime some teachers are not people who you would want to be anywhere near a firearm.

In my opinion schools should hire either retired police officers or military veterans who have recent firearms training. Their training as far as firearms goes should be the same as active duty police officers and certified twice a year with the handgun they would use at their school. They should wear a sport coat and dress pants. They should have constant training in their school (after hours).

 

During my 37 year tenure with law enforcement I have been in situations where I had some well intentioned citizen run up behind me, gun in hand, thinking that he was going to help me in making an arrest with an out of control drunk. I did not know what his intentions were and it divided my attention from the struggling drunk. Untrained citizens should not carry firearms.

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Catfish,

Your theory sounds good.....but it will not work in your school environment. You cannot expect teachers to be cops. My wife is a teacher she will not act like rambo and engage an active shooter. They may try to save their own lives but not someone else's nor should they be expected to do so. They do not get paid enough. They are not combat trained and from what I have seen in my lifetime some teachers are not people who you would want to be anywhere near a firearm.

In my opinion schools should hire either retired police officers or military veterans who have recent firearms training. Their training as far as firearms goes should be the same as active duty police officers and certified twice a year with the handgun they would use at their school. They should wear a sport coat and dress pants. They should have constant training in their school (after hours).

 

During my 37 year tenure with law enforcement I have been in situations where I had some well intentioned citizen run up behind me, gun in hand, thinking that he was going to help me in making an arrest with an out of control drunk. I did not know what his intentions were and it divided my attention from the struggling drunk. Untrained citizens should not carry firearms.

 

thank you vis 9 for making my point for me,

 

From a professionalwith 37 years experience your not wanted and you have been told your an idiot so keep it in your pants.

 

unless someone is trying to kill me I am NOT pulling they can shoot everyone around me don't give a sh*t points at me they are

 

going to have more holes in them than sponge bob.

 

I want to know why the left is so up in arms 1.3 million Americans were murdered last year IT"S CALLED ABORTION they were

 

smaller and more defenseless and it was done for money those abortion doctors don't work for free.

 

I am not against abortion in the normal way but I am surely not for it just don't ask me to pay for it or vindicate it

 

you do what you desire and I will do the same and in a free country that is the way it should be.

 

there is going to come a day when people that despise your help today will beg for your help tomorrow well they are not

 

going to get it from me, they have explained well that I may be a "problem" they do not want me to act on my own

 

by none of the official entities airport security, police, fire feds, or ambulance so I am respectful I will listen to them

 

and when they get their azz shot off I will be minding my own business I have quit the human race they are too dumb

 

for me to deal with all I ask is they stay out of my face and my business.

 

Oh they want you to be a snitch but who are we to know I mean after all we are morons of the lowest order our visual and

 

auditory acuity is flawed if there is a problem we can be sued your not protected through snitching.

 

in court I have heard it stated that saying you want to harm someone is meaningless as everyone does it.

 

You have been told not to judge to be P.C. well that should also apply to things that are none of your business.

 

a guy leaves his suitcase at a train platform or a buss terminal hospital hey I am a moron what do I know

 

I would not want to be responsible for ruining a persons life by labeling them if murderers can walk around and

 

be a respected citizen {IE. 1.3 million abortions} then who am I to judge what is right or wrong.

 

I will give those here a scenario let us say a man is beating a woman as far as you can see to death so you call 911

 

what you don't know the guy is a pimp beating his hooker and he is a gang member you have made yourself a witness

 

and now your in a bit of a pickle.

 

People die every day from every kind of mayhem who's to say they were not targeted as I have said in my previous post

 

it's a complex word with intricate and far reaching implications criminal and political sometimes both learn to shut the fu@k up.

 

and walk away in the courts they pay the judge a high 5 figure to 6 figure salary the cop who is the bailiff makes 5 figures and

 

the lawyers make 5 to 6 figures you get 5 to 10 bucks a day and your going to be called a lair a blind idiot and a fool and if

 

your not careful you could also end up in jail for contempt and the judge can rule regardless of your testimony or the jury's

 

decision it happens all the time so if you got money to burn and and are one of those people who like to be abused go for it.

 

I have dealt with all of them corrupt judges lawyers cops gang bangers city officials and people with money and they all

 

think and say your a bunch of morons.

 

Ever see a cowboy movie the cowboy {the police}is on the top rail supposedly looking out for the cattle {you}and the

 

rustler { gang member opportunist physco} is bent on stealing the cattle as he enters the corral a cow moo's that is one of you

 

cattle {you calling 911} now these cows are in a slaughter pen owned by the butcher {criminal IN justice system}

 

He does not care if you die you were meant to all along he just does not want anyone making money {the rustler} but him.

 

because he works for a gang too and they expect a cut {the government} as long as things work out the meat is sold to the

 

{parole and probation system} it sustains them so they are meat in essence.

 

You thought I forgot someone in this story but I did not the buzzards {lawyers} flying over the gut wagon they are

 

flying all around but until it's knocked in the head and gutted they don't get to eat.

 

Now as long as you sire offspring {your children} to keep the slaughter pen full you stay out of it and as long as the

 

cows give milk {taxes}they are fed and happy but as soon as you dry up it's off to the slaughter pen.

 

now boys and girls do you understand it now it is a business a slaughter business it makes lots of money so true justice

 

has no place there in order to make a profit for all those involved there has to be a NETwork {laws} and under the law

 

your ignorance is no defense to persecution ahhh strike that prosecution I believe it is the other way as once in you never get out.

 

There are 50,000 laws for an normal citizen if you own a business add on 20,000 more now they must think your a bunch of smart

 

cookies OR your being entrapped {1/10th of the laws are good public safety} the rest are entrapment.

 

as in the knife carry law why make a law were every landscaper is a criminal? all insulation hangar these folks use sharpened

 

blades longer than the law but they are not arrested {go figure} the government hoards food and fuel {you cannot}

 

the government can fine you and take your land {they can fu@kup as much as they like and give themselves a raise}

 

You have to pay for everything you get {they have an expense account} and that my friends is why they lie steal and cheat

 

to hold on to power because without it they are cattle and if they neither give milk or sire offspring for the butcher they are

 

in the slaughter pen with you.

 

CLASS DISMISSED

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Vis 9 you have way more experience than I do, and I can definitely see your point. Having an armed person coming up to help you while you are in a tense situation would be a distraction and problem since you can't know the person's intentions. I'd never go running up to a cop with a gun out that is asking for trouble and common sense says that it's stupid. I'm thinking of situations where there isn't an officer available.

 

I have a little different perspective where I live I guess. If I called 911 right now I'd be looking at a minimum of 30 minutes, more likely 45 minutes+ to get an officer from the court house to my home. Even if one happened to be on patrol on this end of the county it's a good 15 to 20 minutes. A friend who lives 15 miles closer to town called the sheriff about a vehicle with 3 men in it that pulled up to their house, drove around the house and barns real slow checking everything out, then gunned the truck and cut circles in the yard a while and took off. She hid in the house and talked to the police until she saw the vehicle leave. 45 minutes later the truck returned, drove through the yard again, and pulled up to the house and stopped, luckily her husband was home by then and ran them off by yelling while holding his pump shotgun while she again called the police. 90 minutes later an officer finally made it by to check on the situation. She went to the courthouse the following Monday to talk to the sheriff about it and his reply was "Well we generally figure people living out there can take care of themselves". It's not that we have bad cops, we just have a small department with a small budget and they can't be everywhere.

 

I don't disagree about needing training either. I'd say that it would be a good idea for school workers to be allowed to carry if they volunteered to recieve training. I'd make the training free for those who want to take it. The training should be conducted by professionals and go well past the requirements for a private citizen to get a concealed carry permit. I was shocked at how short and easy the shooting part of the test was when I got my CC permit, I think that the requirements should be stricter and more time should be spent at the range. I still think that citizens who want to carry should have that right.

 

My mother recently retired, but taught her whole career at a larger school in a neighboring county. She is in the process of getting her CC permit now since she isn't on school property each day. She would be in favor of allowing teachers to carry at work if they took the proper training. The superintendant at another rural school was in my CC class when I took it and was also definitely in favor of it. I'm not expecting teachers to act like Rambo or be required to do anything that they don't decide to do on their own. I just think that they should have the right to defend themselves the same as anyone else. Several high schools in my area are centrally located in their district and not in a town at all, these buildings are up to 20 miles from the county court house, 15 miles from the nearest town an officer may be patroling.

 

I'm not at all against having police or military people working school security. I'm just not sure it would work in a lot of these smaller rural schools where incidents are probably less likely but not impossible. These schools and sheriffs departments don't currently have the resources to put a person in each of these schools. I would say it would be a better use of resources than many other things the government currently spends money on though. I definitely think that it's a good idea for the larger schools or any size school with alot of crime but then where do you draw the line on where to stop? If you decide schools under X number of students don't need a security officer does that make them a better target for a crazy shooter? I don't know the answer.

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Catfish hunter,

My wife sometimes has a bad temper. I would not want her to carry her gun at school, as smart as she is, she is not the type of person who would or could do the job of being a defender of your children. What happens if she is chosen to carry a firearm in her school and something happens and she freezes? And someone gets hurt. Who gets sued? I do not like lawyers. Doctors love to operate on lawyers because they have two moving parts... the mouth and the azz and they are interchangeable. Would you want your wife or mother to be sued because she was too scared to act in a shooter situation? I understand that law enforcement departments are too small in some towns or counties to have a police officer in every school. That is why the school system should hire and train their own security. Oh, I forget schools can not afford that either. They can pay high salaries to the administrators of schools (not the classroom teachers), so they can not afford to pay for security. When I attended school my parents paid fees to pay for things which the system could not afford. We should get back to that and get away from the idea that education should be free to everyone if they want to learn or not. When are people going to take responsibility for their own families. I do not care about any one else's family. Why should I spend my money on them? I do donate money and other items to various organizations and churches. That is my choice. I do not want anyone telling me I have to pay for someone else. I have worked most of my life to attain what I have. I have served in the military during and in Vietnam. I have protected with my life the people who hired me to serve for 37 years. I do not want to give any more. If you didn't work then you do not deserve any more than you have. Of course this does not apply to the disabled or infirm and not to the permenent welfare group. Just because a person exists does not mean that they deserve any more than they work for. I know. I was not born in the U.S. and could not speak English when we came here. We worked and prospered without the Govt. or any other outside help...not even from OBOZO.

 

If you want to offer your services to do the job of school security, then by all means offer your services. I would offer mine but the U. S. Govt makes it imposable for me to offer mine. If they were to pay me then my Income Taxes would eat me alive. I do not want to work for free, as some teachers do.

 

The only answer to all of this is to make very stiff penalties for "any" felony comited while in possession of a firearm, with the major ones such as robbery or murder should have an automatic death penalty attached. Given those perimeters, would you want to commit any felony while in possession of a firearm?

 

Lastly, the type of training which one receives in order to get a pistol permit is not any thing like the training necessary to do a job which entrusts the lives of so many children to one's care. Also no one should even know which schools have an armed guard.

 

Just the way things are.

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Vis9 there are already laws the point is that the INjustice does not use them they are to busy trying to cut deals to get quick

convictions so if they plead guilty they get manslaughter instead of murder in the second degree, quite a bit of difference in time.

 

The death penalty was taken away from the counties and cities and it is a state of federal deal now I can't see where that works

used to be if a guy killed someone in the city they had a trial and took the guilty party out and hung them

 

in a world of equal rights women get away with crimes more than men what the hell is that about if a person killed someone

and another helped they need to die also I loved the one about Oklahoma city the one got executed the other life in prison

talk about your travesty of justice

 

Here is my favorite if you shoot someone because your a failure and a doofuss you don't get the death penalty

you tried that was your intention but oh no your not going to be executed because your a failure

Hinkley shooting Reagan they should have executed him ASAP he was caught he ruined lives and I do not care if he is mentally defective we have been paying 40,000 dollars a year to keep his useless carcass alive for what purpose?

some time back he was said to have recovered they wanted him released but then just wanted more visits.

read this below again we are treating the stupid like an endangered species protecting them at all costs.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley,_Jr

 

when you allow crime to go unpunished it only makes other criminals feel your of no power or effect and they

go on with impunity until they get the big bit@h life in prison unlike their victims they are alive having sax

smoking dope playing dominoes working out a chance to become someone in the system and your living without a

loved family member having to live that loss every day.

 

now how fair and decent is that? well I can tell you from experience it is not and it sucks and the b@stard got 15 years

and the 2 that helped got 3 each. so people should not get me started on the justice system there is nothing Just about it.

these folks never went to trial all plea bargained when I go south I can see where they are buried next to a big cotton wood tree

and I remember that a innocent life was cut short and the murderer who did it will walk free again how sick is that.

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Vis 9 I can't say I disagree with much you said there. I definitely would not be in favor of anything forcing unwilling faculty to carry a gun or forcing them to act to defend students. As you said, they are paid to educate students not to be a security force. I also agree that the training needed to get a CC, at least that which I recieved, is no replacement for professional training for a school shooter situation. Where I disagree is that if a school employee volunteers to recieve additional training and wants to carry on school property we should make the training free and not stand in their way. If a person wants to get it and carry fine, if not that's fine also. I don't think that this needs to, or even should, involve the federal government. The states can make their own decisions. Our opinions obviously differ on this, but that's ok people don't have to agree on everything. You bring up a good point about the legal ramifications if something goes wrong, I don't have all the answers. It is definitely something the states legislation would have to address.

 

I am not in favor of large government or giving out hand-outs to everyone either. I also work for a living like my parents and grandparents before me, ranching is a 7 day a week committment through most of the year. I chose to do this for a living though and I don't complain. I believe that the system is badly broken when there are young able bodied people on welfare, just like their parents and grandparents before them. I work hard for my living and don't believe in giving my money away to those to lazy to work for their own. I would not do it if the government wasn't making that decision for me and would be in support of any legislation stopping it. Nobody is giving me any handouts and I am not asking for them. Many of my friends who work at low paying jobs in grocery stores, convenience stores, etc talk about the bad apples who are working the system paying for their groceries with food stamps and then pulling out their wad of cash for their smokes and booze. Also the idea of paying them more money for having more children is ridiculous, why are they having more children when they can't support their current family? I'm not against short term unemployment while someone gets back on their feet, but government aid should never be a way of life for able bodied people capable of working for a living. I also donate money to causes I think are worthy, and do a little research to make sure the money is going where it's supposed to before donating. I vote every election and I think anyone who can vote and doesn't has no right to complain about the laws they live under. I believe that people on welfare should not be allowed to vote while they are living off the government. If you are not a contributing member of society who is helping to fund the government why should you have a say in how it operates? I don't really care about race or where someone was born if they are currently a citizen and not making their living off the government they should get to vote. If they want the priviledge of voting, go get a job. Not sure we are disagreeing on this part.

 

I also agree completely with you about the stiffer penalties for felons, you and I are on the same page there. That would do more to limit violent crime than any mass gun control legislation that could ever be passed. Not sure how you feel about civillian CC in general but to me having permits available for law abiding citizens and making the penalties for any felon caught with a firearm extremely strict makes a life of crime less attractive to those who would pursue it.

 

I'd also like to thank you for your sevice in out nation's military. 37 years spent serving our country deserves the gratitude of all it's citizens.

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i dont think that anyone is considering FORCED concealed carry or pistol training i think that there are enough people in the school system that would be willing to train and carry voluntarily...i think that WILLING people can and should be armed.

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A lot of this is mostly related to WHERE you live. In Texas you have the full RIGHT to use lethal force to protect yourself OR your property. You also are allowed to protect others if there is a reasonable expectation that they are in danger of death or serious bodily injury. Even setting all that aside though a DA would have a real hard time getting a jury to convict if you were defending someone.

 

I'm not going to shoot you for steeling hubcaps. I'm not worried if you are burgling an empty business. That is a job for the cops. If I see you pounding on a little old lady for her purse...SAY HI TO JESUS FOR ME!!! If you break into my house or attack someone with a lethal weapon I'm gonna pop your bubble. It won't be a 22cal hole either. A 12ga load of #4 buck with about 30 22 cal pellets sort of ends the debate and only leaves one story for the cops to hear. If I'm near my truck I've got that if I have to use a handgun it will be a 357 mag and I do sinus shots FIRST unless they are charging me or running.

 

Crazy or doped up people can be nearly impossible to drop sometimes with the traditional chest shots. A Houston cop emptied a 15 shot 9mm and reloaded for some more one time to drop a dude on PCP. If you are attacking me I'll double tap your chest to slow you down and THEN go to the sinus.

 

To me freedom is more of a responsibility than just a right. A right is something that is given, freedom is something taken. If I am free I accept a personal responsibility for the protection of myself, my family, my fellow citizens and my country. If I stand by and watch someone killed or gravely injured without trying to help I have turned my back on my responsibility and don't DESERVE my freedom. Historically freedom goes out the window when people don't stand up for others freedoms. The monsters take us down one at a time. Only when we stand together are we strong! I'll be there for you...

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The real point is if teachers and adminstaors and janitors and parents,etc are allowed to carry on school property than there won't be another shooting just like there was until they're we're gun free zones, when I was in school we had two guns in the building, both 12ga one in the vault owned by the school for trap team, and one owned by the trap coach in a locked cabinet in the shop. On any given day there was 50 guns in the parking lot as we were country boys in farm trucks with gun racks and guns on them. I've walked down the hall of my school carrying a shotgun more than once. Of course I graduated in 1990 is I guess I was the last safe class of students.

Vis I really don't agree that there should be a line of training that someone should have to meet to carry a firearm forprotection but that battle is lost. So for someone to hold up that they are the only class of people good enough to help in a situation is a little disturbing. With an attitude like that perhaps it best that you not longer are in law enforcement because we don't need anymore eliteist cops than we already have.

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DonDon,

I think you may have misconstrued my point. I wish that everyone would carry a gun. I think that we have too many laws and the ones we do have are not enforced to the fullest and the legal system just pisses away the cases because it is easier to do it that way. I think that teachers and everyone else does and should carry if they wish. Where we might differ is that we are talking about the laws and the world the way that it is now. Most schools will not allow teachers to carry in the school. When a school system grants that right to a teacher or other employee, that school system automatically becomes liable for what happens with that teacher and/or firearm.

 

I also do not think that someone should have the govt. mandate the amount of training in order to carry a firearm. What I was talking about was the necessary training for someone to be a school security person. And I am advocating for that person to be extremely well trained. Do you want someone who just purchased a gun yesterday with out never having fired a handgun to protect your child? My suggestion is specific to a security person. Not only because of the liability incurred by the school system but also to make sure that the children are being protected. It is not only about taking out the shooter but also knowing how or when.

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Snake,

My take on the death penalty is that once the sentence is carried out, the perp. is guaranteed not to do it again. It is cost effective. You do not have to keep paying to keep some scum alive. We do not need more laws, we need to change the ones we have to make them more responsive to our needs. Attys. should not be able to negotiate a settlement for their client. The only question should be is the perp. guilty or not. If yes then he should be excecuted the next day.

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Vis 9 I can't say I disagree with much you said there. I definitely would not be in favor of anything forcing unwilling faculty to carry a gun or forcing them to act to defend students. As you said, they are paid to educate students not to be a security force. I also agree that the training needed to get a CC, at least that which I recieved, is no replacement for professional training for a school shooter situation. Where I disagree is that if a school employee volunteers to recieve additional training and wants to carry on school property we should make the training free and not stand in their way. If a person wants to get it and carry fine, if not that's fine also. I don't think that this needs to, or even should, involve the federal government. The states can make their own decisions. Our opinions obviously differ on this, but that's ok people don't have to agree on everything. You bring up a good point about the legal ramifications if something goes wrong, I don't have all the answers. It is definitely something the states legislation would have to address.

 

I am not in favor of large government or giving out hand-outs to everyone either. I also work for a living like my parents and grandparents before me, ranching is a 7 day a week committment through most of the year. I chose to do this for a living though and I don't complain. I believe that the system is badly broken when there are young able bodied people on welfare, just like their parents and grandparents before them. I work hard for my living and don't believe in giving my money away to those to lazy to work for their own. I would not do it if the government wasn't making that decision for me and would be in support of any legislation stopping it. Nobody is giving me any handouts and I am not asking for them. Many of my friends who work at low paying jobs in grocery stores, convenience stores, etc talk about the bad apples who are working the system paying for their groceries with food stamps and then pulling out their wad of cash for their smokes and booze. Also the idea of paying them more money for having more children is ridiculous, why are they having more children when they can't support their current family? I'm not against short term unemployment while someone gets back on their feet, but government aid should never be a way of life for able bodied people capable of working for a living. I also donate money to causes I think are worthy, and do a little research to make sure the money is going where it's supposed to before donating. I vote every election and I think anyone who can vote and doesn't has no right to complain about the laws they live under. I believe that people on welfare should not be allowed to vote while they are living off the government. If you are not a contributing member of society who is helping to fund the government why should you have a say in how it operates? I don't really care about race or where someone was born if they are currently a citizen and not making their living off the government they should get to vote. If they want the priviledge of voting, go get a job. Not sure we are disagreeing on this part.

 

I also agree completely with you about the stiffer penalties for felons, you and I are on the same page there. That would do more to limit violent crime than any mass gun control legislation that could ever be passed. Not sure how you feel about civillian CC in general but to me having permits available for law abiding citizens and making the penalties for any felon caught with a firearm extremely strict makes a life of crime less attractive to those who would pursue it.

 

I'd also like to thank you for your sevice in out nation's military. 37 years spent serving our country deserves the gratitude of all it's citizens.

 

Catfish, we are not disagreeing. Anyone who does not work (certain exclusions excepted) should not be able to vote. I am also for voter ID and increasing the penalty substantially for voter fraud. We also need more investigators investigating politicians, including OBOZO. Thank you for your kind words at the end of your statement which are somewhat embarrassing. I just did what I thought was right and as far as my law enforcement carrier goes, well to be honest it was a need for a job when I left the service nothing more honorable as motivation.

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Either way you did it that's what counts. Life works that way, if my family wasn't ranchers I'd likely be doing something else. We are in agreement on gun control also.

 

Like I posted earlier, there has been ONE mass shooting since 1950 that did not occur in a gun free zone. That's one shooting involving more than 3 victims in all those years that occurred where the victims or others near enough to be threatened were allowed to be armed. That's one fact we should share as much as possible with anyone wanting to discuss gun control, and one we won't hear on any major media outlets.

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Vis, the fact that the system is screwed doesn't give us the right to stop trying to do the right thing, that is the intent of screwing up the system in the first place. And yes if a guard is going to be posted in a school, which I am strongly against due to addition costs to taxpayers, they must be trained, better than bank guards and other rent a cops because their job is protecting far more valuable assets. But just the freedom of teachers and other staff to have a lawfully carried firearm will stop the issue, this can be seen plainly in the numbers, so as with so many problems facing our country we just need to go back to the founding ideals of our great experiment in goverment, that we are all responsible for us and ours and that just how it should be

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Snake,

My take on the death penalty is that once the sentence is carried out, the perp. is guaranteed not to do it again. It is cost effective. You do not have to keep paying to keep some scum alive. We do not need more laws, we need to change the ones we have to make them more responsive to our needs. Attys. should not be able to negotiate a settlement for their client. The only question should be is the perp. guilty or not. If yes then he should be excecuted the next day.

 

 

my take also I just want to make sure we got the right person in many circumstances we can and are sure those we need to take care of the rest we can keep locked up until we know for sure one way or another.

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Snake,

My take on the death penalty is that once the sentence is carried out, the perp. is guaranteed not to do it again. It is cost effective. You do not have to keep paying to keep some scum alive. We do not need more laws, we need to change the ones we have to make them more responsive to our needs. Attys. should not be able to negotiate a settlement for their client. The only question should be is the perp. guilty or not. If yes then he should be excecuted the next day.

 

I agree with the death penalty but it's actually MORE expensive. Perps found guilty and sentenced to death are on death row for years and years and years before their sentences are carried out.

 

Back in the day, hangings were the day after the guilty verdict was rendered. Maybe we should not make them that quick to give time just in case someone is actually innocent, but more than 6 months to a year on death row is a little much.

 

The other thing that's totally carzy is that prision inmates have nicer lives than most elderly people in state-run long-term care facilities. Aside from being barred from doing certain things, prisions seem pretty cushy to me. Maybe if they were dark, dreary, damp, and scary more people would avoid them and not break the law!

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Vis, the fact that the system is screwed doesn't give us the right to stop trying to do the right thing, that is the intent of screwing up the system in the first place. And yes if a guard is going to be posted in a school, which I am strongly against due to addition costs to taxpayers, they must be trained, better than bank guards and other rent a cops because their job is protecting far more valuable assets. But just the freedom of teachers and other staff to have a lawfully carried firearm will stop the issue, this can be seen plainly in the numbers, so as with so many problems facing our country we just need to go back to the founding ideals of our great experiment in goverment, that we are all responsible for us and ours and that just how it should be

 

DonDon, I am not against teachers carrying firearms. I think that anyone qualified should be able to carry anywhere they wish. What I am against is making teachers responsible for armed security in a school. If you make them responsible then pay them a lot more money and give them the training that they should have to take on such a task. I am advocating for change in the system for the better and think that the Federal Government should stay out of our lives. Leave it to the individual states (State Rights, anyone?). That one should sound familiar.

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To me freedom is more of a responsibility than just a right. A right is something that is given, freedom is something taken. If I am free I accept a personal responsibility for the protection of myself, my family, my fellow citizens and my country. If I stand by and watch someone killed or gravely injured without trying to help I have turned my back on my responsibility and don't DESERVE my freedom. Historically freedom goes out the window when people don't stand up for others freedoms. The monsters take us down one at a time. Only when we stand together are we strong! I'll be there for you...

 

 

holy shiot! Dan that will preach right there brother. wow.

can we get a Amen for this post right here folks?

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