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MommyLiberty5013

Active Shooter - Engage or Not IF you are not Law Enforecement or Military Trained

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Okay Guys. Educate me.

 

I'm posting this in Urban Survival because it's about mass shootings. I've been working on my SA. I know all the exits and places to conceal myself at my grocery store. But, I'm conflicted over this "active shooter" scenario.

 

The article posted on the front page of Survival Cache is authored by a man who supports engaging an active shooter. I assume that he (the author) has extensive training as law enforcement and/or military and that he assumes any carrier of a firearm would engage IF s/he has been trained in the military or law enforcement.

 

But, does this same advice apply to a general civilian who has opted to carry but has no professional experience (besides the required and recommnded courses)?

 

I also frequent another online forum out here on the WWW and the nasty, liberals flammed me for suggesting (as my own opinion) someone who carries ought to engage the active shooter from a properly concealed/covered location.

 

I mean, isn't that a personal decision whether or not to put your life out there for the benefit of others? OR, does a trained, but not professional engager cause more harm than good?

 

I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, if indeed I am (by you guys becasue I think you're more knowledgable). The ladies who vehemetly disagree with me cite a few situations in which the engager was almost killed himself or almost shot the wrong person. I think their examples are cruddy, but that's beside the point.

 

If a civilian, who chooses to carry engages an active shooter, does this do more harm than good?

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Excelent question!!!

 

"If a civilian, who chooses to carry engages an active shooter, does this do more harm than good? "

 

its personal...for me because Im a guy..and have a "white horse mentality' and figure that I would at least try to STOP someone from doing harm...If any Family were around than Its not an option..someone is catching a slug..I have 2 daughters,when they were little you DID NOT get close in any way to harm them..

 

yes I have some basic training and I do shoot on a bi weekley bases..I know enough to at least confront "The ASSHOLE" with a loaded pistol and a "I realy dont care who you are" mentality...you expose a weapon near me and mine comes out..

 

Testosterone..My wife says at times I have too much..Oh and I do know that a Women protecting her child is DANGEREST!!!

jmo

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Excelent question!!!

 

"If a civilian, who chooses to carry engages an active shooter, does this do more harm than good? "

 

its personal...for me because Im a guy..and have a "white horse mentality' and figure that I would at least try to STOP someone from doing harm...If any Family were around than Its not an option..someone is catching a slug..I have 2 daughters,when they were little you DID NOT get close in any way to harm them..

 

yes I have some basic training and I do shoot on a bi weekley bases..I know enough to at least confront "The ASSHOLE" with a loaded pistol and a "I realy dont care who you are" mentality...you expose a weapon near me and mine comes out..

 

Testosterone..My wife says at times I have too much..Oh and I do know that a Women protecting her child is DANGEREST!!!

jmo

 

See, I know without question that if I carried (I don't currently) that I'd shoot whomever was going to harm my kids. I've also thought through scenarios. If I had a clear shot from a covered spot at an "active shooter" I think I'd take it. I would not go "hunting" him down, though. If he was in range and I could do it and do it effectively, without leaving my spot, I'd do it. No question.

 

I do react well under pressure, which has been tested. In the summer of 2009, Hubby and two dear friends of ours rafted the New River in West Virginia. We did that Team Extreme raft - the four of us and the guide in the raft. I fell out in a class four rapid, and got trapped under the raft. Weird thing is, the whole episode is on video. My hubby and friends and the guide were frantically looking for me. I was kicking and clawing under the raft to try and move it, but it was smooth and I had no grip. I was being bashed against the rocks beneath me, thank God for my helmet and life jacket! I held my breath and seriously asked God to help me. Seconds later the raft shifted and I popped out. I got hauled into the raft and was gasping for breath...my lungs were burning. Not much longer under there and I hate to think what would have happened. So, I learned something about myself, I can keep my cool. I can think and I can survive.

 

Admittedly, I'm a novice, but I can consistenly hit (at 30 feet) a 6" target (using our Glock 17). So, that's just at the family farm "shooting range" under no stress. But, I do trust myself to be cool and to breathe and to take a planned shot from a covered spot.

 

I'm a big movie quote person and the one I think of is from The Patriot with Mel Gibson..."Aim small, miss small."

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No Kidding...the New River in West Virginia..That water is COLD!!!!!

Talk about CLOSE..lmao...let me know before you go next time..It aint that far away..

 

"Admittedly, I'm a novice, but I can consistenly hit (at 30 feet) a 6" target (using our Glock 17). So, that's just at the family farm "shooting range" under no stress. But, I do trust myself to be cool and to breathe and to take a planned shot from a covered spot."

 

Your better than some men in my area.....................we are all novice! but it takes time to develope a responce..30ft is close and anything futher needs to be considered a long shoot...but practic ...practic..

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you will be crucified either way you are responsible for any bullet leaving the barrel so pray it does not fly

 

many yards away and kill a kid or a pregnant woman or a cop making the scene or an off duty cop or or or

 

the constitution protects your right to self defense your not the savior of a nation if your not a legal or duly

 

authorized person wait until they get to you to shoot and shooting yourself might be an option as no matter

 

look for lawyers and news crews on your door step accusing you of everything from the parting of the Red sea to

 

alien abductions.

 

look at the Zimmerman case and others although not exactly as your describing but you can see how things can go awry.

 

Everyone wants a savior but like the best one they crucified him expect no different and all it can take is some nimrod

 

saying these words they did not have to kill them {if they die} or I did not feel my life was at risk {and your really screwed}

 

and it does not matter if you think your right or wrong shut the f____up ask for an lawyer period give your name and address

 

and that is all one wrong wording or word and you have cooked your own goose.

 

you have the right to remain silent do so....

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Great story mommy liberty!

As far as the other question.....................I don't know, i've never had to make that choice. We can talk a big story but until we're in those circumstances you never know for sure if you can "take the kill shot"..

I would like to think I could but reality would dictate based on the circumstances.

If law was on the way I may back off so I don't get shot. If the perp is taking lives and adding danger to women and children around him and I have a clear shot.................I believe I would.

Hope I never have to make that decision.

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you will be crucified either way you are responsible for any bullet leaving the barrel so pray it does not fly

 

many yards away and kill a kid or a pregnant woman or a cop making the scene or an off duty cop or or or

 

the constitution protects your right to self defense your not the savior of a nation if your not a legal or duly

 

authorized person wait until they get to you to shoot and shooting yourself might be an option as no matter

 

look for lawyers and news crews on your door step accusing you of everything from the parting of the Red sea to

 

alien abductions.

 

look at the Zimmerman case and others although not exactly as your describing but you can see how things can go awry.

 

Everyone wants a savior but like the best one they crucified him expect no different and all it can take is some nimrod

 

saying these words they did not have to kill them {if they die} or I did not feel my life was at risk {and your really screwed}

 

and it does not matter if you think your right or wrong shut the f____up ask for an lawyer period give your name and address

 

and that is all one wrong wording or word and you have cooked your own goose.

 

you have the right to remain silent do so....

 

So, would you take shot if you had one knowing there could be all the political, media, Twitter crap fall-out?

 

Is it the case that if a non-LEO shot and killed an active shooter, the engager would be arrested?

 

Ethical question here for all to answer: Is it a person's ethical calling or duty to take out a shooter (and in doing so protecting lives) if given the right moment presented itself DESPITE any legal ramifications for doing so?

 

Here's my thought. It takes several minutes for even the best, fastest LE to respond to a 911 call, assemble the fire power needed, and to enter a building with some sort of plan in place to end the ordeal. In those MINUTES, with semi automatic fire occurring inside being aimed by a crazy shooter, at innocent citizens, tons of people can die (Newtown shooting). Those minutes before LE arrives are vital!!!

 

I agree to not engage once LE is on the scene, but what about before hand?

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i dont believe that anybody can answer this for you. its all about how you feel about taking that shot at the time.

to many variable's in this question and the situation. its better to live and shoot another day ya know.

things is, if you can save a life then do it. jsut to many variables here. you'll do whats right if that time ever comes.

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I'm only law enforcement trained at the local/state level with some active shooter response training as well as some other "tactical" training, and my biggest problem with engaging an active shooter is getting shot by bystanders trying to also engage the active shooter, getting shot by bystanders who think I'm the active shooter's partner, or being shot by responding police officers.

 

Having said that, if a shooting takes place with me in a open room and close enough to be forced to engage, i.e. have no where to go, with a sidearm then yes I will. I'd rather return fire point blank than try to run away and get gunned down in the process. If I found myself across the mall armed only with my LCP then nope I'm getting out of there. If I were within 30 yards, had my Glock 21, and position of cover (not much serves as cover though) or good concealment then I'd probably return fire. My mind is already programmed to watch people, and I've grown hyper aware all the time bordering on mildly paranoid, lol. That aside, I'm more concerned about what's behind me than what's in front of me. If I could engage an active shooter I'd be less concerned about an exchange of shots with that subject and more concerned with all of the examples in my first paragraph shooting me from the rear or flanks.

 

I've seen a police item for off-duty officers that looks like a leather cell phone holder you clip on your belt and stashed inside it is a sort of ANSI yellow sash with "POLICE" or something printed on it that you can drape across your torso as a cue to responders that you're a good guy. I'll never buy one, but the idea has merit. Many officers are trained to hold their badge up in such a circumstance, but I think that's a bad idea. The hand holding the badge, if you even have one, would serve you better with other use, and nobody is going to notice the badge.

 

Those are just examples of things I've thought of that may help you in your mental preparation. The caveat here is that no matter what you think or how you train you don't really know how you'll respond until you've done it, and even then if it happened a second time later down the road your response may be even different. However, it is best to mentally prepare for misfortune that might befall you.

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If you are not going to use a weapon to defend then why carry it in the first place?

 

A crazy in San Antonio tried to do the theater shooting thing...he's dead and the innocent are not. In this case the shooter was an off duty cop but what is the difference? The crazy is dead and the innocent are not. The cops job is NOT to protect you. Their job is to capture lawbreakers and enforce the law. A cop for a defender is like having a coroner or mortician for a family doctor!! If you don't want the responsibility shouldn't strap it on.

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i have to agree with Rick when it comes to possibility of using deadly force there are a lot of varibles hat have to be considered and you only have split second to act, and as Danm stated carrying is a big responsibily. When i went thru the training as a armed security guard on post one of the instructors in the use of deadly force would always finish his class with a word of advice, its better to be judge by 12 of your peers than to be carried by 6 of your friends, wheater or not i could pull the trigger i hope i never have to find out.

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I am a trained and proven Shooter situations are all different if you have a hostile that is bent on max carnage than you have a responsibility to act your interference connot make the situation worse it takes the threats focus awayu from those most vulnerable and places it on you and that is the down side because he is going to dump everything at you this is good and bad as long as yo0u focus on the target with out tunneling you stand and excellent chance of nutralizing him however he is throwing rounds your way if one takes you out there is no one in between him and innocents however those precious moments that you bought will still save a few but remember if it is not the killing fields of the insane then you need to evaluate if someone is shooting to take hostages for a hostage situation USUALLY it is better to wait it out for the HRT/ SWAT teams and their negotiators in this Situation unless it is spiralling out of control it is better to not be found seen or heard unless there is no choice or you know all the variables ad know you can end it without collateral damage.

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If you are not going to use a weapon to defend then why carry it in the first place?

 

A crazy in San Antonio tried to do the theater shooting thing...he's dead and the innocent are not. In this case the shooter was an off duty cop but what is the difference? The crazy is dead and the innocent are not. The cops job is NOT to protect you. Their job is to capture lawbreakers and enforce the law. A cop for a defender is like having a coroner or mortician for a family doctor!! If you don't want the responsibility shouldn't strap it on.

 

 

 

My view also..Why are you carrying a weapon if your not going to defend yourself??

Is it just the warm fuzzy feeling?

I will openley admit I dont "like" carrying...I know what damage my weapon can cause...BUT Im not going to endanger myself or a LOVED ONE because of what I may not "LIKE"..

 

I dont "like" paying TAX's eather.....

Edited by 101matt

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you will be crucified either way you are responsible for any bullet leaving the barrel so pray it does not fly

 

many yards away and kill a kid or a pregnant woman or a cop making the scene or an off duty cop or or or

 

the constitution protects your right to self defense your not the savior of a nation if your not a legal or duly

 

authorized person wait until they get to you to shoot and shooting yourself might be an option as no matter

 

look for lawyers and news crews on your door step accusing you of everything from the parting of the Red sea to

 

alien abductions.

 

look at the Zimmerman case and others although not exactly as your describing but you can see how things can go awry.

 

Everyone wants a savior but like the best one they crucified him expect no different and all it can take is some nimrod

 

saying these words they did not have to kill them {if they die} or I did not feel my life was at risk {and your really screwed}

 

and it does not matter if you think your right or wrong shut the f____up ask for an lawyer period give your name and address

 

and that is all one wrong wording or word and you have cooked your own goose.

 

you have the right to remain silent do so....

 

Snake, unfortunately as usual you are correct. You can neutralize the biggest scum in the world during the commission of his crime and all of a sudden you are the bad guy. The family of the dead scum will already be lining up to get some money from the passing of their boyscout and choir boy. That is common if you are a law enforcement officer. If you are not, you are actually in a better position as you have a lesser degree of responsibility and held to a lesser standard.

 

The main thing to remember is if you have to shoot.....always shoot to kill. But make sure that you are right before you do. And remember that most of the people in jail are the ones who TALKED their way in, which made law enforcement's job easier.

 

If a defense atty. can show that you are a crack shot he can make a jury believe that you did not have to shoot the poor scumbag. Even though I shot on a pistol team and scored in the high 90s, for qualification I made sure that I shot in the low 90s. I learned that early in my law enforcement career. Even though I am now retired I still have to qualify with my pistol every year to keep up my certification. This is so I can keep my lifetime concealed pistol permit. I would never want to be without one.

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So, would you take shot if you had one knowing there could be all the political, media, Twitter crap fall-out?

 

Is it the case that if a non-LEO shot and killed an active shooter, the engager would be arrested?

 

Ethical question here for all to answer: Is it a person's ethical calling or duty to take out a shooter (and in doing so protecting lives) if given the right moment presented itself DESPITE any legal ramifications for doing so?

 

Here's my thought. It takes several minutes for even the best, fastest LE to respond to a 911 call, assemble the fire power needed, and to enter a building with some sort of plan in place to end the ordeal. In those MINUTES, with semi automatic fire occurring inside being aimed by a crazy shooter, at innocent citizens, tons of people can die (Newtown shooting). Those minutes before LE arrives are vital!!!

 

I agree to not engage once LE is on the scene, but what about before hand?

 

 

 

NO not interested my hero's license has been suspended, my cape is at the cleaners.

 

I look just as crazy if I have a gun so how are they going to tell? I am a man they will just shoot me.

 

this is life, your on your own if everyone could assimilate that one fact we would all be better off

 

everyone expects a bailout, second chance, the Calvary riding hell bent for leather arriving just in the nick of time.

 

I have rewritten this response a half dozen times and there's no answer that will not infuriate one side or the other

 

or everyone in general.

 

Having been there done that and got the short end of the stick the answer is still NO.

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Snake, unfortunately as usual you are correct. You can neutralize the biggest scum in the world during the commission of his crime and all of a sudden you are the bad guy. The family of the dead scum will already be lining up to get some money from the passing of their boyscout and choir boy. That is common if you are a law enforcement officer. If you are not, you are actually in a better position as you have a lesser degree of responsibility and held to a lesser standard.

 

The main thing to remember is if you have to shoot.....always shoot to kill. But make sure that you are right before you do. And remember that most of the people in jail are the ones who TALKED their way in, which made law enforcement's job easier.

 

If a defense atty. can show that you are a crack shot he can make a jury believe that you did not have to shoot the poor scumbag. Even though I shot on a pistol team and scored in the high 90s, for qualification I made sure that I shot in the low 90s. I learned that early in my law enforcement career. Even though I am now retired I still have to qualify with my pistol every year to keep up my certification. This is so I can keep my lifetime concealed pistol permit. I would never want to be without one.

 

You are right and it is really a sad state of affairs where one half want's you {or anyone to save them} and if it goes badly

your going to get jammed, and the other side is mad as hell your doing their job and hope you make a mistake so they can burn you.

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My view also..Why are you carrying a weapon if your not going to defend yourself??

Is it just the warm fuzzy feeling?

I will openley admit I dont "like" carrying...I know what damage my weapon can cause...BUT Im not going to endanger myself or a LOVED ONE because of what I may not "LIKE"..

 

I dont "like" paying TAX's eather.....

 

just because someone is shooting if they are not shooting at you it is not necessary to pull out a gun and do point drills

 

or doing ninja rolls from cover to cover the only thing left is to sing at the top of your lungs the mighty mouse theme song.

 

my firearm is for my and my S.O. protection I am not a gun for hire nor feel that I am the only one.

 

there are 6 billion people on earth and I am the one? if that is true the world has not been listening.

 

because I have been saying prepare or suffer.

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This is an impossible question to truly answer, the variables are mind boggling! For me my responsibility is firstly to my family, if engaging the shooter is in their best interest than I will, if I endanger them by engaging then I will have to make a snap moral judgement as to if I can with a clear conscience not do whatever is in my power to aid the innocent, but who is the "innocent" the kid running in the open across the food court? The guy in the berkinstocks and Obama tshirt talking on his iPhone walking blindly toward a man in combat boots wearing a seriously puffy tact vest and carrying a duffle? If I hear shots in a shoe store do I run in and leave my kids? Does my responsibility to my family allow me to engage with a 90% chance? A 80% chance? If I am not with my family then I would feel a strong moral obligation to assist in any way I could be it clearing people or engaging.im pretty confident mine will be the best description that the SWAT will get by phone of the shooter.

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Brother Snake..

"Having been there done that and got the short end of the stick the answer is still NO. "

I totally understand the point your making..and the warning that your preaching..We all understand that "We" may suffer for our choises because we still dont live in 1950s....

 

But at what point do you get involved???? In anything???

 

Dont vote because it wont matter?

11million did not vote last year..see how that turned out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Dont stand up for what is wrong in schools?? well now it is not OK to Pledge!

The list is growing ..JMO..

 

Its a personal thing and we all must deside for our self's......

JMO and I take your O very serious..because I have been burned by the "SYSTEM "myself..

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101matt I can tell by your post as well as others that people do care

 

another response that I have rewritten a few times I will say this everyone over 21 can buy and carry they need to do so.

 

I am not a witness we have seen and been told by lawyers that an normal eye witness is not trained or trustworthy.

 

Judges throw out juries judgements regularly and parole boards ignore victims and release dangerous inmates every day.

 

Our Government sneaks in laws into bill subversively and tries to control your rights to water travel and your own money.

 

I am not defending anyone for any reason unless they come over my fence or get in my face not my problem.

 

No reason on this earth will move or change my mind if someone is drowning to bad if they are getting run over too bad

 

if they are bleeding out just do not get it on my boots I will call 911 that is as far as I go I have been told I was not the ONE.

 

pesident Bush on TV told Americans to let them deal with it and justice would be done that agencies would protect us.

 

LMAO my commander & chief ordered me to not get involved and I damn sure not going to disobey I do not give a sh*t

 

if the world flies apart.

 

YOU WERE TOLD they don't need you they don't want you and you do not understand the intricate and political ramifications.

 

All of the civilian planes were grounded and As Osama bin Ladens family flew out of this country and I am sure others.

 

saved Kuwait and ran Sadams army back home with their tail between their legs and GASOLINE prices TRIPLED?????

 

the Policies since then from both sides have done nothing but dig our grave deeper we have now sent troops into Libya.

 

as if we have not killed enough of our mean & women only to have both Iraq and Afghanistan tell us to get out.

 

And you want me to do what defend idiots, your kidding right I think our government and justice has protected the

 

Criminals the ones to lazy to work, baby factories and illegal aliens that never did a damn thing for this country and

 

yet they get as much as anyone who has worked their azz off up to and including been in the military and have volunteered

 

in their communities, you do realize that is an insult right.

 

They have allowed jobs to go overseas have invested, sold and given TAX CREDITS to companies that are foreign owned

 

over 150 countries get foreign aid with our tax dollars {giving away your money to dictators and corrupt politicians}

 

Does the name Noriega ring a bell how many of our men died to fix that problem and numerous others..

 

35,00 gangs here and our border is wide open drug cartels are running dope across it like it's a multi lane freeway

 

Killing and kidnapping people on this side of the border killing our police and nothing is getting done OH yes there is

 

If you think Social security is in trouble now wait until this new road to citizenship happens 12 million additional

 

people on the ride {more like double that number} and we are going to crash and burn.

 

I am here to share what little I know and some opinions and your not about to get burned your getting sold out

 

fannie mae and freddie mac hold paper on 90+% of all homes with a mortgage if we go broke what happens to your home?

 

with the added burden of 12 million ++++ do you think your hospital will be solvent or able to help you, and that border

 

is wide open LOL.

 

your replacements are here like a tick on a kitten not enough blood for too many of them and poor kitty will die.

 

so all these sheeple better get it together because I am not going to do anything for them period and because I

 

cannot read minds or know what side someone is on I am not going to judge I have been told that is P.C.

 

No I am afraid your all on your own, sign all the petitions you want cry to your representatives and they will make a deal to

 

undo your rights supposedly guaranteed by the constitution.

 

I get a better guarantee from wal mart on a Chinese piece of crap.

 

I can and will sit and watch my conscience is clear it is not my party I was not invited in fact I was excluded and because I

 

was in the military I am deemed a problem child now really a child that is how they are treating us.

 

they and anyone else need not ask me for anything if they are such hot sh*t let them work it out for themselves.

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MommyLiberty,

 

If you want to have a better idea of how you'd respond under stress while shooting, try this.

 

Have your target set up, place your pistol on a table or chair at your chosen shooting distance. Walk back about 15 to 20 yards from your firing line.

 

Now run full speed to your firing line, pick up your pistol and shoot the target. Let me know how you do.

 

 

Here in Texas, the law states:

 

PC §9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

 

I'm including section 9.32 to help understand the circumstances that apply for 9.33.

 

PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(B) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

© was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

© A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection © reasonably believed that the use of

deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

 

You are still liable if you miss your target and hit a bystander...

You may be shot by another CHL holder who thinks you are the bad guy...

You may be shot by a LEO who thinks your the bad guy...

 

It still comes down to personal choice and specific circumstances...

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