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A few unfortunate facts…boy is THIS going to upset some people…

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A few unfortunate facts…boy is THIS going to upset some people…

 

The current hubbub about the civilian ownership of “assault” weapons has really bothered me on several levels. Since I have at one time held a FFL and worked as a gunsmith you can imagine my feelings about any sort of ban or governmental restrictions on gun ownership. Nuff said on that specific point.

 

The part about it all that bothers me even more though is the way the folks on my side of the argument seem to be as willing as the anti-gun nuts to ignore the facts. First off semiautomatic civilian copys of REAL assault weapons are NOT assault weapons any more than a p[plastic Mattel toy gun. Both my LOOK like one but they are not.

 

Secondly and most important the 5.56/.223 is by intention one of the least deadly rounds ever shot out of a rifle on any battle field ever. This is a fact and is intentional. In war the primary intent of an army is to force capitulation on an enemy army. Dead soldiers are not much of a drain on an enemy force. Wounded soldiers on the other hand disrupt every thing and use up HUGE resources. Any army that fails to address these wounded suddenly finds its troops demoralized and surrendering in mass.

 

A 5.56/.223 assault rifle is sort of like an epee with a point where as a true battle rifle is a rapier and a fricking shotgun is a two handed broad sword! A 22lr is only slightly less deadly and since untrained people are more likely to actually AIM a 22lr it is actually more deadly in the hands of the untrained. During the Vietnam era the first thing they did in basic training, after they handed you an M-16 “Machine gun”, was start hammering you that you fired in BURSTS of about three rounds that you AIMED.

 

The reason that you fired in bursts was multifaceted. Full auto goes through ammo way too fast and has an abysmal shot fired to hit ratio. The other reason is that one round just doesn’t do a lot to put the stops on an attacker. It might kill them later but you really want them to stop trying to kill you RIGHT NOW!!!

 

A 12 ga shotgun with #4 buck hits with from 20 to 40 .22 caliber balls!!! It is like dumping an entire clip into a target. THAT is deadly. Even if you have a full auto real M-16 assault weapon if you are not trained and disciplined it is a VERY poor weapon.

 

Imagine 5 targets placed in a spread formation 50 feet wide 40 or 50 yards away. If you took that M-16 and swept them back and forth dumping an entire 30 rnd clip in a strip 2 feet wide and 50 feet long. This area has 14,400 square inches in it. Only counting the heart and sinus regions as instant stops you have only 260 square inches that are stoppers and only 30 bullets trying to hit these 260 square inches…VERY poor odds.

 

At a cyclic rate of 600 rounds per minute it takes you 5 or 6 seconds to empty out. In those same 5 or six seconds I think I could put 5 bullets in 5 heads…maybe even with an old Winchester 30-30! Please, if the evil bastards and crazy people are going to shoot our kids, let them do it with these toy play-like assault rifles!!! They are intentionally not deadly by comparison with nearly anything else. We even further handicap them with ball ammo.

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Excelent!!

I argue this point EVERY time I purchase 7.62x39 ammo..

"Secondly and most important the 5.56/.223 is by intention one of the least deadly rounds ever shot out of a rifle on any battle field ever. This is a fact and is intentional. In war the primary intent of an army is to force capitulation on an enemy army. Dead soldiers are not much of a drain on an enemy force. Wounded soldiers on the other hand disrupt every thing and use up HUGE resources. Any army that fails to address these wounded suddenly finds its troops demoralized and surrendering in mass. '

 

 

If and WHEN I need to put something to my SHOULDER....I mean to KILL something.....NOT wound it!!

 

Same goe's for my weapon of choise for "Hand Held"..It's a 1911..and 230 grain coming at you at 800 ft per second pluss.

 

Sorry Im old and Im not going to Play...

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The only "battle cartridge" I can think of that's worse than .223 would have to be the old .30carbine,and at least the carbine looks cool.IMO,rifles aren't supposed to look like ya bought them in a toy isle,and they are supposed to fire a round with some stopping power!

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well if they think 223 is bad 221 fireball or 220 swift 22 mag is rated as a BMF 17 remington as well as the new 17 rimfire

 

And wounding soldiers in certain areas of the world does not work well as they left them on the battle field for us to take care of.

 

the 223 or 5.56 was built off the 222 magnum but due to NATO and other restrictive documents Magnum cartridges are not for the battle field so our boys fiddled with it and wala we ended up with 5.56

I have also heard the story that is was a choice and the military picked 5.56 or 223 I was not involved so I do not know to me the point is moot it is what it is.

 

any 22 caliber moving at 1600 to 4000 feet per second are crazy bad they do wild things when they encounter different

density obstacles they can hit you in the foot and come out your shoulder I do not like to hear the bullets tumble

as all bullets can and do if circumstances are right the 22 cal mass is not stable when it strikes something it has a tendency to

follow the path of least resistance larger heaver bullets have the ability to push through..

well as it was explained to me the bullet follows a bone muscle or vessel and like a race car when the track runs out

it spins out if it hits something else it will follow that tract until it plays out .

 

KIA ratios are still similar wound ratios seem to be also but we have a problem with these statistics one era was not full auto

as much as the next and that has some effect on the data a man with a bolt action or a clip in his experience did not fire

as many rounds as a man with a Magazine full auto 20 to 30 rounds but this debate will never end

if you use the formula number of rounds fired per KIA's and wounded in action the korean & viet nam war seemed like more

wounded of course that was altered by the enemy carrying off the dead to confuse the effectiveness of our troops equipment

tactics etc leaving the seriously wounded to be treated by us the ones that could get back were treated to get back in the war

so they would save money and supplies as well as man power it was also known that captured folks on our side did not

make it to POW camps.

 

I never liked picking and choosing history as it is written by the winners and not always accurate not truthful and not because the

writer is bad but it is garnished from field information and KIA numbers were know to be fudged 500 and 1000 pounders and napalm have a way of obliterating evidence so if your counting shoes or rifles it still does not work out some wore sandals and rifles

were not issued to every person makes numbers pretty useless.

 

I do know that a few rounds of penatrators will kill a bear or moose and a mag full an elephant at 20 yards so i try not to stand in front of any loaded firearm people and deer have been killed with 22 shorts.

 

get shot in the big toe with a 22 short and tell me how bad and ninja you are.

 

everyone can carry a 50 cal I will stick with 22 lr and I figure given weight I will still have ammo when the large calibers run dry

to me if I can hit something at 300 yards then my only problem is 40 yards and under groups of unfriendlies 12 gauge

is a good trench sweeper if your area is prepared a natural funnel to force into the zone fire low as there is less of a chance of

resistant clothing and fast movement requires legs.

guerrilla tactics are much different than conventional tactics and small groups need to understand this.

 

the small bore large bore argument will go on forever but the military has decided it both are needed

there is a place and time for both if it were not so we would still be using 7.7 jap 303 brit 30-06 and 8MM and were not are we

soon we are about to see price increases in reloading components so it's your money big bore takes more powder and large primers

and heavier bullets all of this costs money having loaded all the belted magnums I have a bit of insight to the price differential

now it is very evident a buck a round will be the norm as you increase in bore size the sliding scale will increase

copper is about to become an investment grade metal copper is a component of brass so now figure the cost of a larger bullet

with a thicker jacket lead is going to get more expensive and insurance for employees so ass it all up and everything is going to cost a lot more on one thread 338 lapua was brought up It is a non starter talk about an oddball size a 45-70 in 350 grain

is as good for power quite as not as long a distance. and 458 bullets are common and a lot of lead load information available

 

20 years ago none of this would have been an issue but brass and everything has and will go out of sight so things will change.

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The M-14 and the M-60 are the last of the American Battle Rifles. The M-16 was never intended nor called a battle rifle. The .223 and the .222 mag are basically the same round with only slight outside case differences. Ballistics wise they are identical. Both are just great varmint rounds. Neither is something you would want to use on anything much bigger than about 60 lbs. It used to be illegal to hunt deer with them in Texas.

 

The countries that don't or didn't tend to their wounded like Iraq, either had their men surrender in mass or you had to stand behind them with a gun and shoot them yourself to keep them on the battle field. In Desert Storm entire companies surrendered to short platoons without shots being fired. In round two Saddam's troops did a little better. After George the Loser snatched defeat from the jaws of victory Saddam KILLED the officers that surrendered and then put his pallace guard behind his troops and shot any that tried to surrender or retreat. They still were a pretty sorry excuse for an Army. In WW2 the Germans basically had to do the same thing with the Italian troops for much the same reason.

 

I wouldn't hunt dear in a sport situation with any of the rimfire rounds but that said the 22mag is a deadly poachers round. My uncle killed 50 deer with 50 shots over two years with a bolt action 22mag. Each was a clean head shot from less than 50 yards most at night. The orphanage got the meat because he was killing them legally to protect his crops. He'd kill them and field dress them and call the game warden. After that they wised up and started killing does and got the numbers under control.

 

The .223 is a nice round in a pistol. I loved it in my TC super 14. It just bothers me that people see things on TV and in movies and don't understand that fiction isn't real. The stopping power of the M-16 was so bad that the Government actually started bragging about the odd things that the round occasionally did. I loved it when they bragged that it tumbled!! The early M-16 was terrible about burning the barrels out and without rifling the bullets didn't spin enough to stabilize. It is called "key holing" Normally it means the gun is trashed and needs re-barreling but the spin doctors talked like it made the round more deadly. Then they also bragged about it hitting someone in the leg and then coming out the shoulder or something. This did occasionally happen because the round didn't have enough power to always break a bone and it BOUNCED off!! They did NOT mention that for every weird kill it made that there were 5 that it failed to even disable because the bullet bounced out of the body! The A-2 and later had heavier barrels and did a little better at dispersing the heat but they still didn't last long if a green horn started ripping off 30 rnds at a go.

 

Numbers wise the AK 7.62 round isn't all that powerful BUT the bullet weighs a lot more and does more damage when it hits a bone. It is still an assault rifle though. The M-16 was at it's best in the thick jungle where you couldn't see your target and were instead shooting bushes. Lot's of lead and not much damage. If you were setting up an ambush and knew that you would be able to see your target you wanted more power and that was when the pump shotguns and M-60 shined.

 

Capt, the 1911 45 acp was a result of the same sort of problem when the Army retired the old colt single action army with the 45 long colt. The replaced it with the anemic 38 colt rnd. The action in the Philippines showed them the error of their ways. Those little guys would just keep coming and chop you with a machete after being shot 5 times! Saddly the politicians decide and the troops get to die with crap weaponry. The 9mm Beretta is no better!

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The .223/5.56 may in fact be less lethal in the immediacy, BUT there are many, many, many people who can attest to their lethality when properly employed. Compare two dead victims...one by .223 one by 7.62 or whatever. Which one died "more effectively"?

 

My point is this: I fully support our right to keep and bear arms. Yes, even semi-automatic black guns. I also fully support the contention that their is no need in the hunting or sporting arena for 30 round magazines. But they aren't the problem. The problems we are having are with the shooters, the bad guys, the criminals, the mentally challenged. If they can't get a bushmaster or an AR15 type of weapon, they will use something else. Picture the recent school shootings with a Saiga 12 gauge.

 

If I believed giving up our AR's etc would stop the violence I would support it wholly and loudly. I do not believe it for a second. Lets start convincing the world what the problem is and find good ways to fix it, and stop arguing the unimportant details of calibers and styles.

 

Sorry for the rant....my opinions make me Devildog- and do not necessarily make me right.

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I can't disagree that the 223 isn't the best instant kill gun in the world, won't even try. I've shot lots of coyotes with it and a coyote is a tough critter. A shot with a V-max or ballistic tip that hit the heart dropped the yote instantly alot of the time at short to mid ranges but not all the time. A tougher bullet like the 60gr Partition pokes a neat hole through them and bleeds them out in a few seconds but also didn't kill them instantly all the time. The most effective bullet I've found is the 65gr Sierra Gameking because it opens so fast on impact for initial shock but still holds together well enough to exit while creating a large wound channel along the way. Stepping up to a 22-250 or 220 swift seemed to increase the shock value due to the increased velocity and shut yotes down much quicker on average, especially with a lung or shoulder shot instead of a heart shot. I used these with the same bullets and at the similar ranges so I don't feel it my results were due to bullet design, rather to hydraulic shock from the energy transfered. I really think that a bullet's impact velocity and the resulting hydraulic shock are big factors in how fast an animal drops after the shot. My little 204 Ruger with the 45gr Hornady bullets seems to hit as hard and kill as fast as the 22-250. Stepping up to a 243 with a 70-95gr bullet made a huge difference in both speed of kills and effective shot angles. I have yet to see a shot angle I don't like on a yote with a 243 or 6mm Rem in my hands and a 75gr V-max loaded up to 3400fps or more. This recipe just seems to shut them down quick with a solid hit from any angle due to the wound channel. Any bullet that shuts down a yote quickly from any angle should do the same on a human.

 

I have never and hope to never have to use a weapon in self defense against a human. My experience with guns is limited to hunting, target shooting, and putting down animals around the ranch as humanely as possible. I would love to have a light AR-10 in a 243 win, but until I get one I still feel fairly comfortable with my 5.56 carbine with handloaded 65gr Sierra Gameking bullets. They provide the most devastating wound channels I've seen a 223 or 5.56 produce on the animals I've used them on. I'm not going to argue that a 223 is as effective as a 7.62x39 or 308, or anything else bigger than a 223. I do like that my rifle is reasonably lightweight and fast handling even with a 20rd magazine installed. A lightweight short barrelled rifle that keeps the weight balanced between my hands is a rifle that I tend to shoot well and get on target with quickly for a fast and accurate first shot. I like that it's trajectory roughly matches that of the larger rifles I use for big game out to 400 yds (zeroed at 200yds, 8" low at 300, 24" low at 400yds) making it quick and instinctive for me to shoot at those ranges. I also live in terrain where it is important to be able to reach out to at least 300yds so a fairly flat shooting round is important to me. My choice would be easier if I only needed a 100yd gun.

 

I won't argue a bit with Damn that they need to be aimed. A 223 shoots a small bullet, and a small bullet needs to be placed well to put down a large animal quickly and efficiently. I really can't argue with Damn on any of it but I think with a premium hunting bullet it is alot more effective than it will ever be with ball ammo, same as any other rifle is. The vitals on a human aren't particularly deep inside the body or well protected by heavy bone so I think it will still be lethal enough with a good hunting bullet. I also really like that my rifle is plenty accurate to allow good shot placement and I'm pretty confident that I'm going to get an exit wound with my loads from the front, back, or side on a chest shot. I guess I like the 223 because of the packages it is available in, and for the light weight of the ammo as much as anything. It is the smallest, easiest packing/concealing weapon I'd be comfortable with that still has the effective range I'm looking for. Hopefully it never needs to take down anything bigger than a yote although I'd feel real comfortable using it for deer or similar size game.

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Good post Dan,

 

Perhaps the most "unfortunate" fact of all regarding assault/military grade weapons/guns...at least for the FED, is the very reason the Founders put the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution in the first place:

 

For the average Citizens to match power with a tyrannical govt.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTJVARoj7gc

 

This is not new information.....it's been right there since 1776.

 

Wolfe

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Works for me.

Perhaps the most "unfortunate" fact of all regarding assault/military grade weapons/guns...at least for the FED, is the very reason the Founders put the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution in the first place:

 

For the average Citizens to match power with a tyrannical govt.

 

2nd Amendment..1789....America's Orginial HOMELAND SECURITY.....

NUF SAID

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Danm,

Thank you, sir. I was on active duty when the switch was happening. I trained on the M14 and was then forced to go to the M16. What we had in RVN as well. I do not trust the platform and the whole 'assault weapon' thing is just stupid! IF you want, I can make the case for an "assault caliber"; more powerful than a pistol, less stompy than a battle rifle. The 7.62X39 as an example, but does it really matter to the 'lead receiver' if the lead was launched from an evil looking assault rifle or a nice friendly bolt action? Who is "deader", the guy shot by the M14 or the guy shot by the bolt action Gun Site Scout rifle? The good news is that most of the evil people who do the mass killing thing think 'spray and pray' is a tactic. That's why you see 30 rounds fired and 2 people hit.

Oh, and for everyone's information, it is NOT the first shot, not even the first lethal shot, that wins a gun fight. A LOT of folks have been killed by 'dead' men. It is the first STOPPING shot that ends a gun fight and you want to be the guy who fires THAT shot.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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Good post Dan,

 

Perhaps the most "unfortunate" fact of all regarding assault/military grade weapons/guns...at least for the FED, is the very reason the Founders put the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution in the first place:

 

For the average Citizens to match power with a tyrannical govt.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTJVARoj7gc

 

This is not new information.....it's been right there since 1776.

 

Wolfe

 

Although she is absolutely right we got a bunch of dumbazzes here that say "it will never happen here " even hunters and

target shooters and especially clay shooters they really above all the groups these folks with a Parazi's and oiled canvass shooting jackets fro scotland feel supeior and that government won't look at them because the are special.

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I agree with devildog.. no one bullet is a man stopper short of a .50 from a M2 browning. many many people are in graves because of a 5.56, as well as many other cartridges. its about shot placement not caliber. its like saying id rather be shot by a .25 or 380 than a 9mm or .45. bullshit any one of those will kill me and i dont want to get shot at all by anything. the human body is 72%-74% water so it will do strange things to ballistics no matter what . I remember one fine example of small vs large caliber where a SC state trooper pulled over a guy on I-95 back in 1992 when the confrontation was over the state trooper lay dead and the perp wounded. the perp had a small little .22 caliber pocket pistol, the state trooper had a .357 magnum revolver. the perp was shot 5 times in the chest and stomach area, the trooper wearing body armor was shot once under the armpit. the perp lived.

 

anyway its still mute to outlaw any kind of small arm of any caliber because no one can legislate morals

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great post Dan, my mini14 is in .223 and a great varmint gun even good for the small calif deer but any thing bigger than a coyote,or on two legs, I'm thinkin I'd like a 30-06, close in tho a 12gauge will do:), hey catfish! no more wal-mart! buttheads are all on board with fully supporting them actually videotaping your gun and possibly ammo purchases and keeping the tape for the feds- all for your safety-of course-

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Not another caliber argument....5.56 was designed to tumble, and therefore do more damage over a great area. People have been shot in the chest and round exited the lower half of the body. The problem is that with the advent of "better" 5.56 rounds, such as the steel core, the tumbling effect is lessened or altogether removed and therefore it just goes straight through the target.

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In addition the original 5.56 rifle twist was 1 in 14 making it very unstable and it also affected accuracy so in 72 when the M16A1 came it it was increased to a 1in 7 which stabalized the round and turned it into a large bore needle at close range 1 to 100 yrds it gain a little between 100 and 225 yrds its abilities fall of fast after that and with out a rear sight adjustment its in the dirt at 500 and at 800 is its area target range meaning you can hit somewhere on a HMMWV 80% of the time

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