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Rapture333

Keltec Sub 2000 9mm vs .40?

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So I'm in the market for a Sub 2000, a folding carbine with a 16" barrel, it is available in 9mm and .40 rounds. For self defense, with the possibility of turning light cover, such as a car door, into concealment, which round offers the best protection? If the protection offered from both is similar is their a reason to go one way or another? I figure the 9mm would be a bit easier to shoot, but I'm a pretty big guy and don't think it would make much of a difference. Everyone says 9mm is cheaper, yes I know, but this is a self defense weapon. Plus I'm living in an urban/semi-urban environment. I just read this thread on the subject: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=435504

 

But for my needs as a self defense weapon what would be the prefered caliber? Or is their little difference when being shot out of a rifle?

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Rapture, Personally (and this will create a debate itself) the 9mm's ONLY pro is the availability in ammo. I personally carry a 40 (or 2) and I do not even consider a 9mm. Just based on personal experience and first hand accounts of people I know, the 9mm lacks the power to even penetrate a car door (Deputy involved in shooting, friend). I doubt recoil from either would be noticed in a carbine platform, which leaves the other criteria as higher ranking in the decision process. I'm not sure what the range is from a 9mm, but I would say 250 yrds from the 40, especially from a carbine, is doable. I haven't done any ballistics tests for penetration of the 40 at that range tho.

If you already stock 9mm for a sidearm, it would be the choice for the carbine so you can easily swap rounds between platforms.

Again, personal choices but I have had realiable performance with my 40s during my times. I wish I would have picked up the Marlin Camp Carbines in 40 and 45 when I seen them years ago, but always thought they'd be available and they weren't a priority then.

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Thanks for the reply regulator, in thats the case im definitely going with the .40. In my state im yoo young for a concealed carry permit, so I need a single rifle that will be practical in all situations. Soon when I get my CWP ill get the Glock 23 for logistics.

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40 cal seems to be picking up steam, what with all the LEOs going that way, so should be a good choice and is a respectable round by all accounts. I shied away at first, thinking it was going to be another 10mm or .357 Sig, but I may have to take the plunge and pick one up. My brother loves his Keltec Sub200 in 40, for what it's worth.

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Texas, I have nothing but good things to say about the 40. It is just a scaled down version of the 10mm, which lost alot of its momentum when LE couldn't switch to it over too many weak shooters not being able to handle the recoil.... much like the 45 being thrown aside for a much lower standard 9mm.

I may have to look into the Keltec myself. I've had a few Tauruses in 40, Sig P229 and the Glock 23.

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I also carry .40 nothing but good things to say about it and I have never heard of some one being shot in the brain or heart with one and surviving unlike the 9mm. (Famous example; REP Giffords point blank range with a 9mm Remington hollowpoint through two quadrants of the brain stayed standing for 11 seconds stayed conscious for 8 min made an 80 percent recovery in 5 months is currently standing on an 88percent recovery probably the best that is going to happen. While the shooting was a tragedy and people were killed, all of the terminal victims inluding the 9 year old girl were shot multiple time and die of hypovolemic shock or also known as hydraulic failure. While yes this along with alot of others was a heart breaking tragedy it also is a treasure trove of terminal ballistic performance. As morbid as it is I do study the affects and outcomes of the weapons and ammo used in these situations and the results the hard part for me is when children are involved. In the real world the ".40 S&W is more lethal for hits involving fatalities and physical failures per hits than the 9mm even though the 9mm Parabellum is used in more shootings by 4 to 1" National Academy of Forensic Sciences 2009 report

Edited by warrior7r

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Only Glock I've ever shot was a .40. The really good thing about the Kel Tec is that if you purchase correctly the mags are interchangeable between Glock and Kel Tec. That can be a VERY big plus in a bug out weapon. I like pistol caliber carbines for several roles and my .45 Colt lever gun is solid out to 200 yards. Pistol calibers are cheaper to shoot than rifles (in general), will do the job at under 200 yards and can have the same ammo as your every day carry gun. What's not to like?

 

I carry a 9mm as a pocket gun almost all the time. It is NOT my first choice but it is what I can conceal in summer in Houston. IF I can, I have a .45 ACP on my hip and the 9mm still in my pocket. The reason LEOs went from .38 spl to .357 was the inability of the .38 to stop the cars used by the BG's in the 20's. The shift to 9mm was made for the military in spite of what the GIs wanted as a cost/commonality with EU measure. Frankly GIs died because of the 9mm. The reason the LEOs AND the military are leaving the 9mm is that it is not effective enough for its role. Yes, it will get you really, truly and permanently dead but .40, .45 and 10mm fire the fight stopping round sooner than a 9mm in general. If you can handle the .40 go for it. I shot a Walther 40 and didn't really like it. To me, my Colt Commander in .45ACP had less recoil than the Walther. The Glock .40 (I think it was a model 22) felt great, shot great and had a tad less recoil than my Colt as measured by my calibrated recoil sensor (weak hand shots - more effects from the felt recoil).

 

IF you can get a way to shoot the Glock .40 before you get the Kel Tec I'd recommend you do that. If it feels good to you, then get the Kel Tec that uses Glock magazines and in .40. When the time is right, you can buy the Glock and you already have spare mags and ammo.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

Edited by Capt Bart

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I would also toss in the Ruger SR40 and Springfield XD though the springfield is a bit snappy I own the Ruger it is going for between $400 and $470 and i love the way it points and shoots but as Cap says it needs to be fitted for you.

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I had a Browning Mark III in .40 that I got rid of...every time I pulled the trigger it felt like someone was standing next to me and whacked the pistol with a stick (I even swapped out some of the parts to help dampen the recoil to no avail). Have owned H&K USP, H&K compact and FN in .40 both were excellent, no problems with either.

 

Another advantage of getting the KalTek with the Glock magazines is that Glock makes some 32 round magazines. Just something else to think about.

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But we are getting into pistols and the original post is for a carbine personally there is no real benefit that I see to a pistol calibered carbine unless you are talking .45 Colt 44 mag. or .454 Casull. A 9mm or .40 S&W carbine only really works on one level Humans. Neither are good hunting cartridges can it be used in an absolute pinch if you are skilled in the outdoors and can get close enough to the bigger game, but the .40 would obliterate all the meat on anything smaller than a small goat. Personally I would get a rifle calibered carbine allow yourself some flexibility to put food on the table and be defensive agaist the two legged threat also.

Edited by warrior7r

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Warrior,

I've never found a Ruger that I didn't like. I shot their P series in .40 - great gun but I don't like the safety on the Ruger P series. It works opposite to the safe on a 1911 - a possible point of confusion I don't want. Still, a fine shooting piece.

 

I basically agree about the calibers although I have friends who have .357 Mag carbines that they use for hunting everything deer size and down. I tend to think of anything less than the .45/.44 range as an antipersonnel/varmint gun. It wouldn't be my choice for a survival gun but for a bug out gun to a location that has my deer rifle it could well be the proper choice.

 

Personally I would get a rifle calibered carbine allow yourself some flexibility to put food on the table and be defensive agaist the two legged threat also.

 

I don't disagree but that wasn't the question and there is no question that the pistol caliber is cheaper to shoot. There are some pretty inexpensive Savage rifles out there in everything from .300 to .30-06 to .308. It would pay to check these out as well. It depends on the mission; as a weapon that will never have to exceed 150 yards or so, the .40 might be the best choice.

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For the price of the Keltec and IF I was only able to buy 1 long gun, I'd probably chose a 12 gauge. it can be loaded with light shot to take small game/birds and when loaded with slugs and 00 buckshot, you still have an effective range, especially in an urban enviroment. I know this isn't exactly along the lines of the OP, but it's a viable option for the question of personal defense posed.

It also poses the question of "what are we prepping for?" Several comments have touched on the "avoid a firefight" theme (and I agree) and "survival" (outside of combat/heavy defense) doesn't require a "black rifle". I agree with Warrior from an earlier thread about having a tool that can be used for both (AR10/M1A1) but just to feed my family my bolt action high power and 22lr's will more than do the job.

It's all a matter of exactly what we foresee in OUR future.

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I can see a multitude of things that could happen but might not last January when we had that snow storm that shut the Pac NW for nearly 2 weeks we were prepared for that then at three days without power we warned by PD that theives were going neighborhood to neighborhood breaking into homes people had left to go to hotels or other peoples houses. Did I expect that, no not in that time frame. Was I ready for that, yes I was because I don't plan for expectation or probable I plan for the possible not my interpertation of possible but what is literally possible (example Pearl Harbor some idiot assumed they were untouchable by the Japanese with out looking at it realistically) Because murphy likes to screw with me I plan for what is possible. So yep I dont believe there will be a polar shift n my lifetime but I have a plan for it and the equipment my family will need and my older kids are trained on reverse navigation do I think they will need it no I do not but I could be wrong It has happened before it could happen again. do I believe Uncle is coming to makes us all slaves no I do not. do I believe they are so currupt they cant see anything but their own interest absolutely and when it comes to a head several different scenario's can play out not all of them end in a revolution or armed resistance am I hoping to peacefully remove them and change things yep but if the people say your out and they stay am I prepared and equipped to use other means and you know what I have also thought about what happens if another or multiple other countries tried to take advantage of that situation. So what do you think. The whole point of prepping is not to look at a narrow belief of what you think will happen but what could happen to give yourself and you family options. By prepping for what you think will happen you have locked yourself into a narrow field of thought and response, I do not ASSUME I know what is going to happen even with everything that I know Uncle is tracking, planning and prepparing for. Why? Because ASSUMPTION IS the MOTHER of ALL F&$K UPs I plan for everything on a very generic basis I encourage my clients to do the same it allows for maximum flexability and situational adaptiveness this way I am dynamic and have options, while most of those Doomsday Preppers are static they are locked into their plans and thoughts which if the situation is different or things do not go to plan (in the real world they never do sorry life fact) they are now backed into a corner that dramatically decreases their likely hood of survival and that is the reality simple and cold. I have to many responsibilities that would also be wiped out that I am not willing to sacrifice for personal narrow mindedness. You can be mad at me all you like. I am by nature a calculating, cold, and imaginative realist.My back ups have back ups locally and in different locations across the country it wasn't cheap but it also isn't excessively expensive either the important keys are knowledge and imaginative determination.

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My back ups have back ups locally and in different locations across the country it wasn't cheap but it also isn't excessively expensive either the important keys are knowledge and imaginative determination.

 

Agreed, warrior. Still, I've been 'prepping' for at least 40 years; long before survivalist stopped being a slur and prepping became something the government urged you to do. What my preps cover is substantially different from what a new prepper faces. Since I don't think we have any really rich folks here, every new prepper is faced with the 'what do I do first' question. Being prepared for EVERYTHING is overwhelming and probably impossible. You start with what you see (you are responsible for your own survival after all) as the single MOST likely and most immediate event. In most of the country it is probably a weather event or earthquake. Once you're ready for that (probably at least 2 weeks food and water, power, appropriate clothing, self defense etc.) then you move on to the next most likely. At some point, you have 3 months of consumables, a decent 3 gun battery and you're reasonably set for the larger events. Things like a financial collapse are longer term but the basic "3's" give you a solid foundation for prepping for some of the less immediate events. Ultimately you have a few years worth of preps spread out over a suitable number of locations.

 

It has to be baby steps: I agree with the larger scale for the 'black swan' event but for the new prepper, unless Bill Gates joins the site, it simply is too overwhelming to try to get ready for everything. We start little and go from there. While I don't ASSUME I know what will happen, I do know the most likely events. Tropical weather, industrial accident, and power outages are big items in Houston. Those events I prep for first. Something else happens (our wildfires during the drought - in suburban Houston - a Black Swan for me), my preps give me flexibility to deal with THAT issue when it arrives.

 

One of my favorite lines from a movie is from 'Tremors 3' where Burt Gummer has just blown up his compound and comes out with "years of preparation and I end up a REFUGEE? WHAT KIND OF BENEVOLENT DEITY WOULD CONDONE SUCH IRONY????" Any of us may wind up surviving only on our EDC (Every Day Carry). Doesn't mean don't prep: does mean have the knowledge and skill to survive with what you have.

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well I just have to say that not only is the keltec sub2k a great gun but keltec as a gun manufacturer is a great company(in my personal opinion). I have shot both the 9mm and .40 cal versions of the sub2k I didn't notice a whole lot of difference in recoil, but I did notice that the sub2k is really a short quarters weapon but I don't like goest ring sights very much. So the problem I have with the sub2k is really just that you can't change the rear sights on it. I have a glock 35 and noticed that I actually make tighter groups with that out to 50 yards but again I don't care for goest ring sights this may be why my groups are better with the glock. Now keltec was having a problem with the sub2k jamming a friend of mine has one and had to send it back in to get the problem fixed I don't know what the problem was he hasn't gotten it back yet so I don't know what they are really doing about this. Over all in my opinion a great bug out gun once you get the jamming problem fixed.

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One2survive,

welcome to the forums, sir. Agreed, Kel Tec has a great reputation for fixing any problems and I've never had a problem with any of their hardware. That said, a gun that jams is not a gun I'd trust so I'd be interested to know what the problem was when he gets it back.

 

It could be a simple matter of the gun didn't like the ammo he was feeding it or it could be a manufacturing glitch that Kel Tec can fix.

 

I love the ghost ring sites, guess it's a 'boxers or briefs' kind of question. You need to use what enables you to shoot up to your abilities.

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If Keltec made these rifles in 10mm Auto, i'd be in for one if not two rifles. I'm a 10mm guy. Sold my 40 S&W pistol & some of my 9mm pistols as well, lately.

 

yes 10mm is awesome, you need to look at the .400 by corbon, .40 caliber shell in a necked down 45 cartridge. you can load them in any standard mag that accepts .45 and all you need to do is a barrel change. and the .400 has similar ballistics to the 10mm. i have a barrel for my 1911s and other than i wanted a better spring to handle the higher recoil of the round it was a simple as pie to convert, I'm looking to get a barrel for my glock 30 so i can carry using the .400 if i feel like something different

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_Corbon

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