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Regulator5

Predators in the City

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http://news.yahoo.com/urban-coyotes-could-set-stage-larger-predators-135800362.html

 

 

The link is to a Yahoo news article about coyotes moving into urban areas. They also talk and are trying to predict urban encounters with even larger predators (mountain lion shot in Wrigleyville neighborhood of chicago).

This may cause some to adjust plans on urban preparations and adds a new competitor for food in the case an event occurs. This is also of concern for People with small children and plans for bugging out should incorporate the need to defend against this additional threat, in urban centers.

I hunt and trap coyotes and normally carry a 22lr for hunting them. I carry a sidearm as well with much more stopping power than my 22 rifle and we usually have a shotgun at hand when doing night calling in case we get a "quiet charger".

If you haven't thought of nor planned for large predators because you're in an urban enviroment, it may be worthwhile to at least research the particulars and learn their tracks and other signs they are in your area. Any tool used to defend against 2 legged predators should stop a coyote, but bigger predators may require a different approach. Also, coyotes and others can be very fast and/or hunt from ambush, so a shotgun can be a better choice for immediate action for defense. I also suggest nothing smaller than 4 shot, but heavier buckshot and duplex turkey loads would be great since you're not trying to save the pelt.

Just some thoughts for consideration and by no means a very thorough summation.

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Reg, you have me interested in Coyote hunting now. They are deemed a public nuisance up in my parts to, although the powers that be (or maybe the gunners that be) have kept most of the coyotes out of my town. We still get quite a few bobcats though. Now I want to look into the coyote hunting laws up here haha!

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WT, I advocate keeping them thinned down before an event to help game animal populations thrive. They become serious competition when you are trying to bag a rabbit or grouse or (name game bird/small mammal) to feed yourself and family, not counting the physical dangers. Plus trapping coyotes is practice for just using traps as tools for your survival.

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Cougars are becoming a problem up in Oregon. My parents told me that they've been seen stalking runners at parks, and have taken at least one child in their CITY. Hunting restrictions have apparently caused an increase in the local deer population, and large predators are being drawn in. Small humans aren't as fast as deer...so we know how that ends.

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Azatty, I agree. Many of the areas/states that have restricted hunting on the larger predators have seen an increase in attacks and/or "near misses". Humans are only on the top of the food chain because of our ability to use tools, as we are probably one of the most fragile creatures inhabiting Earth.

The other issue is people feeding the animals, which causes them to associate the scent of humans with food (Florida's gators and "snowbirds" are a prime example). Even our trash will eventually cause the animals to associate humans to a food source.

Even small things like pouring ammonia on the garbage can help reduce the scent that draws animals to "free food".

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Interesting thread, when we lived in southern California, south Orange County, we routinely saw and had coyotes in our yard, neighborhood, and in the green belt areas of suburbia. There has also been a large "explosion" of cougar/mountain lions in that area, and neither the coyotes or the lions are "afraid" of humans. Recently, while in Monterey County, on the well populated beach front of Asilomar State Beach, we watched in the early evening a lion take a small deer down. The tourists were "shocked" that "no one did anything about it", as if there was "something" to be done. Here in Utah, we have a small family of bobcats that roam our property at will, I even have photos of them. Humans and lions are not to comingle, and people call for the lions to be destroyed for being lions.

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I don't advocate extinction nor wanton slaughter of anything, except roaches, rats and mice.... well maybe some 2 legged vermin residing in domed buildings...lol.

 

I will take as many coyotes as possible since they are a "foreign" predator in my area. They are not native and since they removed all the wolves decades ago, the 'yotes have no natural enemy. As far as cougars go, I will take one that is a threat or on a fair chase hunt, but if they get a deer, it's the way of nature.

If I must E&E thru urbana during an event, I will remove the predators on sight as I have small kids and won't take a chance with my kids' safety, plus if it's a cougar, the old journals/diaries say they are good eating...lol.

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I don't advocate extinction nor wanton slaughter of anything, except roaches, rats and mice.... well maybe some 2 legged vermin residing in domed buildings...lol.

 

I will take as many coyotes as possible since they are a "foreign" predator in my area. They are not native and since they removed all the wolves decades ago, the 'yotes have no natural enemy. As far as cougars go, I will take one that is a threat or on a fair chase hunt, but if they get a deer, it's the way of nature.

If I must E&E thru urbana during an event, I will remove the predators on sight as I have small kids and won't take a chance with my kids' safety, plus if it's a cougar, the old journals/diaries say they are good eating...lol.

Reg, you just leave them cougars alone lol, sorry I couldn't help myself

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We definitely have close-in encounters with cougars already around here, and it would certainly get worse post-SHTF. It's one of the things I have thought of - and Capt Bart has mentioned, too, when talking about my area and the pros/cons as a BOL. There are around 5,000 cougars (estimated) in Oregon, and around 50,000 in the US overall.

 

Another thing to consider is pets as predators. You can pretty much count on packs of feral dogs springing up as people "free" their house pets when they can't feed them. A dog pack can do a LOT of damage to a person; my sister works for a doctor who has three golden retrievers who TOOK DOWN A DEER at the family's country home when they'd been left alone for only a few hours. We're talking well-fed, pampered dogs, not what will be out there, starving and possibly sick, at TEOTWAWKI.

 

And don't forget the jackasses who buy exotic pets like lions. tigers, etc. Did you know that there are more tigers in captivity in the US than there are in the wild in Asia? And do you think these "pets" will remain under control of owners who don't have meat to feed them anymore? I wonder how long it would take for the estimated 5,000+ tigers in the US to start breeding post-SHTF. There aren't going to be many predators who can challenge them, especially in the plains or in some woodland areas, and they're ALREADY predisposed to being man-eaters.

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We already have problems with dog packs around here...

 

Awhile back one of my neighbors had a pack kill several of his animals, another had two rottweilers stalk her two year old child and kill several of a friends livestock, and I had several other dogs kill one of my sheep.

 

The dog pack was killed down to its last member, the rottweiler carcases were deposited in their owners driveway (that's where the sheriffs deputy suggested they be left), and I had a talk with several of my neighbors as to why their dogs would not come home if I found them on my property again (two of them put up fences to keep their dogs in after that).

 

For some reason city folk think that if they drop their dog off in the country that 'kindly ol country folk' will take them in.

 

No...it ain't so. We don't know a thing about the dog, don't know how he acts around strangers or children and most of us won't take the chance. That dog will end up in a dog pack, kill livestock or threaten people and end up shot if its lucky poisoned, starve to death, or die from lack of water if not.

 

On top of all that there is a guy maybe 3 miles from my house who has a private zoo. I know that he has at least one male lion there, not sure what other predators he has at that site. Did I mention that we also have cougars around here as well?

 

Think a .308 would do the job?

Edited by vonBayern

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Here's a general FYI...

 

I live in central Texas...Bastrop County to be exact. Within 100 miles of where I live I have cougars, a tard with at least one lion and I'm not sure what else, camels, zebras, American bison, emus, ostriches, exotic antelopes of various types, long horns (the real ones), cattle, feral hogs (150 lbs+), coyotes, and feral dog packs...and I have heard reports of a black bear that used to come around (never saw him myself).

 

That's the short list of just the animals I've either seen or studied their tracks. I used to work with the guy who owns the zoo, that's how I know about the lion. Never asked him what else he had, didn't want to prolong the conversation.

 

When the bottom drops out its gonna be humorous around here.

 

The point to this is unless you scout the roads around your current location, or BOL, you won't really know whats out there.

Edited by vonBayern

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In my home state of northern California, the wild pigs DO get pretty large. I have personally witnessed. three separate "collisions" between three very large pigs, (2 sows and one HUGE boar), the two females were fatalities as were the vehicles that hit them, but the boar shook off a 50 MPH broadside which killed the Chevy work truck that hit him, and after the pig regained consciousness, he got up and trotted off!'Scared the crap out of me watching that one resurrect himself! Not sure I can legally own anything that would take him.

Most of the pigs in NorCal are between 300- 450, at least the ones we see when hunting them, and often times some will split off to hunt you back, makes it a bit more sporty that way.

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From what I read on it, the 450 Bushmaster might be a decent short range predator dispatcher. Some of the field trials I read about, they were stopping big russian boars on the charge at close range. Of course this could be a logistical nightmare for stocking ammo.

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This is one of those areas where gun choice has to be done very carefully. Not just caliber but also action. I think a .308 is probably good for almost all of the American game with the exception, perhaps, of Bison. While it will take a lion I'd want a semi-auto for a fast follow up shot. For a long horn, there are a lot of 'that depends' issues. Broad side on, the .308 should do the job nicely. Head on, I am not at all sure the bone ridge across the top of the head would not deflect the round.

 

In Africa the minimum round for the 'Big 5' dangerous game animals .375 H&H Mag. The American Bison, Long Horn and brown bear are big, tough animals and I'm not sure anything smaller than the .375 is a good idea. A hunter in Alaska was nearly killed by a big Brown that had received TWO fatal hits from a .375 H&H Mag. Fortunately, the THIRD .375 round stopped the bear. Something like a 45-70 Marlin is a beefed up Buffalo round so it should do well. The .416 Rigby or the .458 Lott is certainly enough cartridge to do the job. Since the American Bison is not as aggressive as the African Buffalo the smaller round (the .308) is probably good enough in that case assuming an accurate shooter. The Long Horn is tough and aggressive and I would really want a lot of gun if I were looking at that beast. The possibility of the animals on an exotic park of some idiot's back yard getting loose is a concern.

 

http://www.south-african-lodges.com/big-five.php

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_North_American_big_game_animals

 

If you look at the "American Big 5" you'll find a lot of critters that are tough and dangerous as well. Moose can be dangerous as can Caribou. While the American Cats are dangerous, they don't require the knock down power that an African Lion requires. For some of these, the .308 is perfect. For others the big guns are the best options.

 

Animals like wild hogs, dogs, wolves, etc that are both aggressive and hard to kill are truly worrisome. Couple that with the tendency to run in packs and a semi-auto makes sense to me. The .308 will do the job but you may have a dozen targets all trying to get to you, so the ability to quickly dispatch lead down range and reload when empty seems like a very good idea. This is one of the few places where I absolutely agree with the semi-auto's advantage over the lever gun. Fast, aggressive, hard to hit and hard to kill when hit make these some very dangerous animals.

 

Just because you're in the city, doesn't make you safe and an escaped African 'Big 5' animal will kill you just as dead in Cincinnati as he will on the savanna.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

Edited by Capt Bart

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LOINS TIGERS and BEARS OH MY..

 

sorry I just had too..

The problem is very real,with that many tigers loose/who or what is going to go after it?

Male and female HUNT TOGEATHER..thats a force to be conserened about..

The wild pig is also going to be a problem/they eat you if they get a chance..

 

I have some hollow points for my SKS..just in case...

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Capt (and anyone else who studies them),

How does a shotgun rate for the bigger game in Africa? I do not plan on ever making it there, but the 12 gauge loaded with 000 Buckshot or slugs for an urban enviroment may be a worthwhile consideration, IMHO. The thing to remember, anything mentioned above (all great) will be hell on wheels with the neighbors in a closed in "concrete jungle"; over penetration will be extreme. Ok, not to sound too much like a jack azz, but if I'm defending my kids, I'll use whatever is available, but I didn't shed blood defending the People here just to "smoke" someone because some jackazz turned his pets loose when they couldn't care for them anymore.

I won't kid myself nor anyone else that even most sidearms will go thru an exterior wall of most homes built nowadays. The "substandard" practices to up profits and lower quality is rampant. Alot of homes use styrofoam sheeting, except at the corners, for the exterior sub sheeting instead of plywood (not OSB). I haven't seen a firearm stopped by 1 inch of styrofoam and a 1/2 of drywall yet unless shot from a long range and if it did stop it, the weapon wouldn't be worth the weight to carry it. On top of that, the great multitude of "glass" installed in buildings is just waiting to become shrapnel when hit by a projectile.

Urban centers offer a huge calculation in what tools are employed for defense and when you must think about the biggest 4 legged predators, it becomes an even harder calculation. It becomes a balancing act of how much is enough and yet poses the least amount of danger to bystanders (if you have any care there). Just something else to consider on top of all the other little things already in the pot.

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As for anything you will meet in north America a 12 gauge slug will take care of it in a self defense situation. 2200+ ft/lbs of muzzle energy in a 1 ounces delivery format you can argue that a .308 has more at point blank but then you can't argue that a .45 is better than a 9mm at the same time. Although I would be swayed by an argument on the http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895GBL.asp

As a " holy shit that things going to eat me " option

Edited by DonDon

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Don, I don't use the ballistics tables to find answers just for that reason. Velocity may help in some areas, but I don't see where you can use it to convey "stopping" ability as would be the case in 308 vs 12 gauge. I would never argue that a 9mm is anywhere in the same "country" as a 45ACP, let alone the same ball park, in stopping ability. The slower and much heavier 45 allows the body to feel trauma instead of just "punching" thru without the trauma. I figure a 12 gauge will stop about anything native to the continent, and would trust it to stop the big cats from Africa, even without really knowing (which I don't). Alot to be said for a 1 ounce chunk of lead hitting something.

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Don, I don't use the ballistics tables to find answers just for that reason. Velocity may help in some areas, but I don't see where you can use it to convey "stopping" ability as would be the case in 308 vs 12 gauge. I would never argue that a 9mm is anywhere in the same "country" as a 45ACP, let alone the same ball park, in stopping ability. The slower and much heavier 45 allows the body to feel trauma instead of just "punching" thru without the trauma. I figure a 12 gauge will stop about anything native to the continent, and would trust it to stop the big cats from Africa, even without really knowing (which I don't). Alot to be said for a 1 ounce chunk of lead hitting something.

 

That's my point exactly! People get to caught up in the numbers, yeah sure for shots out past 200 yards Ill listen politely to argument about 30.06 vs 7.62x54r vs .308 blah...blah ...blah but for stopping something cold it's all about shock and tissue damage. But for the purpose of this forum, I see the point also being a 12 ga slug gun, that can out perform any designer big game round inside 20 yards can be bought at Walmart for $225 and $10 for a fill up not $3000 and $50 in ammo after you find it not to mention that for most people in that situation they would be better off with a 00 buck load ( by the number the same as being shot by 7-9 .32 NAA at the same time) ( but in reality far worse) so as to not miss the by far most important shot of their lives.

Edited by DonDon

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