CarsonCityJay

Less Lethal

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Rod, I subscribe to the “bring everything you have” philosophy. Home owners should assume that a bad guy that enters one’s home in the dead of night and without permission is not there to do bad things. So one ought to act as though one’s life depends upon the fight as it probably does.

 

CarsonCity, some of those ammunition your link depicted advertised that the ammo will make a ‘big noise’ and make a big flash that is guaranteed to blind the bad guys. But the flash will be just as bright for the home owner as for the criminal whose eyes have adjusted to the darkness. So the home owner will be only slightly less blind and deaf than is the bad guy. I don’t see much of an advantage to that condition.

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For myself the only thing of interest would be the Flash Bang to be used to disorientate the BGs before I took them out. The advantage is you know when your going to pop the cap and can look away and or close your eyes for a second. The only use for rubber bullets I see is if you want to get realistic in your training. But, I think paint balls & guns would be safer. A paint ball driven by a wrist-rocket slingshot should get ones attention in the right place.

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Less Lethal? Sorry, but if an unknown person (who may or may not be armed) breaks into MY house, whose mere presence presents a threat to MY family, there is no "less lethal." He/she will get a face/torso full of lead. I don't want to ever have to kill a man, but I'll be damned before I ever let someone harm anyone under my protection.

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If my driven in, like a spike in an oak beam, gun safety ruled didn't stop me........you could sure get your bubby to shit himself with thus distraction rounds.......HEY Buddy hear you been sleeping with my wife!!!

 

 

This guy is wishing he had less lethal ammo

 

http://www.newstimes.com/policereports/article/Cops-Father-didn-t-realize-he-shot-son-3902162.php

 

If I was single I might think about a bean bag as a first round in 12 ga but as father I don't have the luxury of being so kind to unwelcome house guests.

Edited by DonDon

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DonDon, I do not understand your post. I think that you are saying that you would not use ‘less than lethal’ rounds because you have a family and want to protect them. Is that accurate?

 

I use a Taurus Judge as my first line of defense. I consider using a 410 pellet round from Judge as ‘less than lethal’ round. Sure, it might tear up a person but I doubt they will reach room temperature from a couple of 410 rounds. That is why the last two rounds are 45 Long Colt. If three blasts from a nasty revolver are not enough to stop a bad guy, two rounds of 45 Long Colt ought to work.

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less lethal approach??

 

Any time you PULL a weapon,YOU have made the decission THAT someone has put you or a FAMILY member in Danger of losing there LIFE!!!

 

For me thats the rule!!

 

Consequence of THIER action...When In Gods Name will people start being RESPONSIBLE for thier actions.You break into my home Guess what ...BODY BAG...

 

NUFF SAID..

Edited by 101matt

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DonDon, I do not understand your post. I think that you are saying that you would not use ‘less than lethal’ rounds because you have a family and want to protect them. Is that accurate?

 

I use a Taurus Judge as my first line of defense. I consider using a 410 pellet round from Judge as ‘less than lethal’ round. Sure, it might tear up a person but I doubt they will reach room temperature from a couple of 410 rounds. That is why the last two rounds are 45 Long Colt. If three blasts from a nasty revolver are not enough to stop a bad guy, two rounds of 45 Long Colt ought to work.

 

Yes that is what I saying that if I was single ( which in my case is also 18 year younger) I would consider in a situation where it is just me or them, about giving them a second chance with top loading a less lethal....I guess by your arguement I do since I have a #6 trap load first in my home defense shotgun followed by a #4 high brass, then 00 .

 

And I was saying that if it wasn't a total breach of responsible gun safety that the distracting round in the original link would be fun to mess with a buddy by making him think that you have lost your mind.

 

And that the man in the link I embedded who shoot his own son during a seeming break in at his neighbors house is probably wishing that he had rubber bullets in his gun.

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OK, my $.02 worth. Most of these less lethal rounds are intended for crowd/riot control back from the day before the Social Security folks got their hollow points (that is still a sore spot for me). If you are not a LEO or a NG unit, you probably don't have a really good reason for these items. Remember the legal AND moral obligation to use less lethal (no such thing as non-lethal; they CAN kill) means is the exact same level as that required to justify lethal force.

 

A further drawback of the less lethal ammo is that you are now faced with a choice of which means to use. That choice will delay your reaction time to a situation and put you at a disadvantage. Finally, IF you have less lethal choices AND you use lethal force you will now get to justify that choice to a bunch of folks who may have NO idea what a shooting encounter is like for the folks involved. They will of course have the weeping widow's lawyer to explain how you recklessly and negligently choose to murder (negligent murder?) her poor misguided thug of a husband.

 

I just think the risks far outweigh the advantages.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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DonDon, thanks and I agree. I don’t see how that father will be able to live with that guilt for the remainder of his life. It must have been horrific for him when he realized he shot his own son. It’s a terrible tragedy.

 

Cap’n, I normally agree with you but we separate paths on this. When it comes to criminals violating the sanctity of the home I share with my wife, I want to be better armed and prepared than are they. I want to be able to impart as much resistance, pain and agony as possible into the violent criminal and do so as fast as is humanly possible. Now, before firing, I will give the criminals numerous warnings, cautions and ‘outs’ as is possible. If they decide to continue their invasion, I must be ready, willing and able to protect my wife (and kids if they are visiting). I would not ‘shoot first and let God sort it out’. I know better than that and I am not a cowboy. But I am pretty sure that, if they want to harm us during their crime spree, they will not heed the warnings. That means that they are prepared to encounter resistance so they are probably armed. I crushed my legs three decades ago and am now pretty much handicapped, turning and running is totally out of the realm of possibility. So, if the wife and I can’t run, we must stand. We have no choice. And if we need to stand, I want to have every chip on my side of the table. And that might include firearms that create large holes in the target. It may include the use of hollow-point ammunition. And it may include more than one firearm. The only ones that will ever find out for sure are the criminals foolish enough to raid my abode. If I am not prepared to fend off attackers, shame on me for doing what a husband and father should do.

 

As for ‘less lethal’, you are correct. A young lady was accidentally killed by police offers during a rally to celebrate a Red Sox World Series win. She lost her life over a stupid baseball game! The police didn’t mean to kill her and they used ‘less than lethal’ ammo. But she died and that was a catastrophe.

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excoastie,

I'm a little confused. I'm not sure what I wrote that gave any indication that I thought you had ANY restrictions on self-defense, especially in the home. My intent was to point out that the less-lethal means increased reaction time, perhaps caused confusion when selecting which means to use in defense AND could complicate your interaction with the legal system should you go with lethal force instead of trying the less-lethal first.

 

My personal belief is that folks way too often use insufficient force; excessive force is rarely a problem. If I pick up a TASER instead of a double barrel and the TASER doesn't work, I may not have time to go to plan B. Gunfights are by their nature, short and vicious; not very forgiving of poor choices in the initial few seconds. A gunfight that lasts 10 seconds is an eternity; the idea that I can try the TASER or bean bag, see how it does and then fall back to a lethal round if needed is a pipe dream, in my opinion. For that reason I do not advocate the use of less-lethal force for most folks. There may be unusual examples but in general, if a situation arises that you would use less-lethal force for you are also justified to use lethal force.

 

There are always legal and moral questions to the use of force. There are also moral and legal questions in the failure to use force. As a species with free will our actions, or lack of actions, have consequences for which we are responsible.

 

What did I write that you disagree with?

Edited by Capt Bart

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Cap’n, I am the product of the Massachusetts Public School System so my reading comprehension lacks reliability and sometime I misinterpret a sentence. But then again, I am distracted by shiny things! Now that I have your point corrected in my mind, we agree and couldn’t have written it any better!

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OK, thanks, Coastie.

 

I don't mind folks disagreeing with me but I like to be sure that what I wrote is what I meant to write! Sometimes my computer keyboard goes into random translation mode and types things different that what I put into the keys! That's my lie and I'm sticking to it!:rolleyes:

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Back in the old days when I was still an active member of Uncles Yacht Club, my instructions were clear.

 

Fire two warning shots into their body and then yell 'HALT'.

 

Now days I'm older and calmer.

My less than lethal force warning is the sound of a hammer being cocked.

 

You would be amazed at how small a sound can carry over most background noise and change the attitude of several potential BGs, all without you saying a word.

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Back in the old days when I was still an active member of Uncles Yacht Club, my instructions were clear.

 

Fire two warning shots into their body and then yell 'HALT'.

 

Now days I'm older and calmer.

My less than lethal force warning is the sound of a hammer being cocked.

 

You would be amazed at how small a sound can carry over most background noise and change the attitude of several potential BGs, all without you saying a word.

 

"Two warning shots into their body." Damn! Why didn't I think about that!

 

The older I get the more I realize how often I miss the obvious. Why I was surprised when my friend asked me out one weekend to "practice fishing". It never occurred to me that one could "practice" fishing! :o

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Rayz, multiple warnings are necessary for a homeowner to not be judged as a criminal in Massachusetts. If the criminal is 30 feet away, the homeowner must give numerous warnings or, if possible vacate the home on let the criminals take your family’s possessions. But there is no law stating how much time is needed between warnings. I figure I can get four warnings out in less than five seconds. And if I can’t, the BOOM will happened somewhere between warning 2 and three.

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Rod,

 

Some of the things I was kinda watching 'may' have been capable of producing a sickly glow as it were...so them was my instructions. <shrug>

 

The Navy neither confirms nor denys the presence of nuclear weapons aboard their vessels, but when you have three flat bed trucks heading your way with a squad of marines on the first and last truck with a .50 on top of the truck cab and a cobra gun ship or two flying air cover...you could consider that a hint.

 

Excoastie,

 

Can you give your warnings between shots?

 

BTW, is it true that you have to be at least 6' tall to be in the CG?

Edited by vonBayern

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VB, while I was "only" in the USAF-the "other" military branch, I have seen numerous folks that are in coastie uniforms that are definitely NOT 6feet tall. I know of two CG rescue swimmers who were always called "little boys", because of their youthful looks and their diminuitive size, but, they were EXTREMELY TOUGH little boys! I hope that excoastie is kidding about having a numerical footage requirement in Mass. whereby one has to give verbal warnings prior to shots being fired, having never lived there, I do not know, nor do I care to know, unless my defense counsel tells me to "know". I think my verbal warnings come something like this.....BANG! HELP! BANG!POLICE! STOP!BANGETY-BANG!

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We've been having a discussion about less than lethal solutions here in Mobile for the last few days.

A student at the local college apparently took some drugs and booze, tried to attack two people, then turned his attacks against the campus police (I believe they're county deputies). The police officer put one in COM and stopped the threat. The school is now being demonstrated against by people who said they should have tazed him or pepper sprayed him or tried to talk to him. The kid was 18 and had been a high school wrestler and was drugged crazed out of his head. I say the officer did a good job. I'd like your opinions.

Here's the story:

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/10/usa_community_urges_police_to.html#incart_river_default

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Von, do you think I don’t know? Of course I know! We are all over six feet tall in case the boat sinks, we can walk ashore. BTW, unsurprisingly, I am 6’ 2” so I could go out a little further from shore. Heck, I think I have said all the jokes about the Coast Guard. Trivia - Popeye was a Coastie and NOT a Navy sailor. We only accuse him of being in the Navy because no Coastie worth his salt would chase Olive Oil anywhere! (Sorry Navy)

 

Also, yes, the warnings can be given between shots. And somehow, you read my mind!

 

Malcolm, we had shorter guys in the Coast Guard but that was so we had something with which we could close holes in the hull.

:)

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We've been having a discussion about less than lethal solutions here in Mobile for the last few days.

A student at the local college apparently took some drugs and booze, tried to attack two people, then turned his attacks against the campus police (I believe they're county deputies). The police officer put one in COM and stopped the threat. The school is now being demonstrated against by people who said they should have tazed him or pepper sprayed him or tried to talk to him. The kid was 18 and had been a high school wrestler and was drugged crazed out of his head. I say the officer did a good job. I'd like your opinions.

Here's the story:

http://blog.al.com/live/2012/10/usa_community_urges_police_to.html#incart_river_default

 

I really would need to have more info on this one to really decide.....it said in the story that he was banging on the officers window, I assume to his cruiser, so that would sound as if the officer was not in immediate danger as he still had a window protecting him, but LSD is a powerful drug that makes tazers and less lethal means ineffective, a 5' anything person wrestler or not on LSD is a match for a 6' well trained officer and if you've never tried to detain a naked person then don't underestimate that.

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