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Rifles for the apoyclypse

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Rifle for the Apouclypse: I agree if one have the money and can afford an M-4 but we must also look at the guy how is just getting by they need to survive also. in this case look at the Molsin nagant 91/30 or an M-44 both are in 7.62X54 and cost under 140.00.

 

The Molsin Nagant 91/30 is one of the best low cost survival rifles one can buy. cost of the rifle is under 140.00 and 440 rds of 7.52X54 is about 82.00 for surplus ammo. this means one can survive a while under andy situation that arrives.

Range 400 + yards. one one round killing capabilite. more then plenty for self defense or 72 hrs bug out.

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hahahaha they threw in a M134 minigun..

 

personally i agree with the AR it is the most common rifle with the most common ammo type so there is potential for and endless supply of parts and ammunition since everyone has one, Im surprised no one added an AK for its rugged and simple design

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Just remember if you want something for your bug out bag and you intend to go low profile, the barrel on the Mosin Nagant Model 91/30 is about ten feet long, or at least it feels that way sometimes the way low hanging limbs seem to catch on it! On the other hand, if you want to go visibly armed but don't want the attention given to an evil black rifle, this looks enough like a hunting rifle to pass. In fact, many folks use these for hunting, anyway, as discussed elsewhere.

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OK, once again I'll say that I do not like the AR platform in 5.56 for a survival weapon. While it might serve in a close combat scenario I think it is extremely limited in the roles it can serve in a survival situation. Most of your survival time will not be in combat (unless you don't make it out) so you need a weapon that will do most of the survival tasks well. I tend to favor a combination of .308 (PTR-91) and a .22LR (for the small stuff) along with a .45 for up close and ugly situations.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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Good points, Captain. I think it all depends on which rifles fit your plan. A 22LR rifle is a good tool for a lot of survival situations and should be a part of everyone's basic survival battery, as well as a 12 gauge shotgun of some type (20 gauge for recoil sensitive folks but 12 gauge is much more common). Like Capt. Bart, I am partial to the .308 for bigger targets, and the .45 ACP is a nice close-in defensive option, but I also like the magazine capacity of most full sized 9mms, and using hot, hollowpoint personal defense loads seems like a good alternative.

More on the 22LR, I am of the school of thought that you cannot have enough of these around the house. Good for small game, training, and self defense in a pinch, you can get a half dozen (or more) of these for the cost of an entry level AR and I have never seen a 22Lr with a shot-out barrel, though I am sure it happens somewhere.

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Good points, Captain. I think it all depends on which rifles fit your plan. A 22LR rifle is a good tool for a lot of survival situations and should be a part of everyone's basic survival battery, as well as a 12 gauge shotgun of some type (20 gauge for recoil sensitive folks but 12 gauge is much more common). Like Capt. Bart, I am partial to the .308 for bigger targets, and the .45 ACP is a nice close-in defensive option, but I also like the magazine capacity of most full sized 9mms, and using hot, hollowpoint personal defense loads seems like a good alternative.

More on the 22LR, I am of the school of thought that you cannot have enough of these around the house. Good for small game, training, and self defense in a pinch, you can get a half dozen (or more) of these for the cost of an entry level AR and I have never seen a 22Lr with a shot-out barrel, though I am sure it happens somewhere.

 

I don't know TB ... I've had my .22 for over half a century and it still has solid rifling ... It MAY be possible for a competition shooter to shoot out a barrel, maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath. You're right - that .22 is just great and it is hard to have too many or 'enough' .22 ammo.

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If after the apocalypse I decide that I really need an M-4 I'll bag one with my deer rifle. The thing about and ASSAUT rifle is that it loses its effectiveness if you are not assaulting someone. The round per body count in Nam was sky high mostly because you tended to shoot at bushes instead of people. I am of a more defensive mind and prefer heavier rounds at lower rates of fire that are aimed instead of sprayed at the target. If I pull the trigger you can just bet your baloney that someone just died. One shot one body and it doesn't attract a lot of attention.

 

After the law of the land becomes the survival of the fittest cutting loose with an assault weapon is going to be like putting a bulls eye on your forehead. This isn't going to be like a war or police action where you have a bunch of back up. If I hear someone rip a couple of mags off I'm going to come to you and find out whats up before you sneak up on me. If you are a raider then I'm going to start working you over sniper fashion until you are all dead or you leave the country. Firepower is great if you have just unlimited ammo and lots of back up. A small group is better off being MEEK and sneaky and there ain't nuthin' sneaky about an M-4...unless you can afford to silence it and reload lower velocity ammo. A bullet going 3000 FPS is noisy!! Sonic boom even if you could shut the muzzle blast down. JMHO

 

Hell I had a friend get a chopper shot out from under his butt in Nam and all the Vietnamese gentleman had was a muzzle loader!! He gave them hell for about a week with that damn thing. He wasn't even Charlie! He was just a farmer with a real attitude about people messing up his fields.

Edited by Danm

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I must be a bad prepper because I don’t have one of those! I have an AR platform but it is a Beowulf and I don’t think that counts. Personally, I’ll take my guns over their guns because mine are paid for. They seemed to like Ruger a lot, too. Maybe Ruger paid for the advertising.

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Rifle for the Apouclypse: I agree if one have the money and can afford an M-4 but we must also look at the guy how is just getting by they need to survive also. in this case look at the Molsin nagant 91/30 or an M-44 both are in 7.62X54 and cost under 140.00.

 

The Molsin Nagant 91/30 is one of the best low cost survival rifles one can buy. cost of the rifle is under 140.00 and 440 rds of 7.52X54 is about 82.00 for surplus ammo. this means one can survive a while under andy situation that arrives.

Range 400 + yards. one one round killing capabilite. more then plenty for self defense or 72 hrs bug out.

I will not argue about its effectiveness as a hunting weapon, but even during WWII it was antiquated if it hadn't been for the Russians overwhelming numbers during the war they would have lost. A Russian division could only bring the equivalant small arms firepower of two Bundeswehr (German Army) Brigades they literally had to fight at three and four to one odds to beat back the Germans that is not very effective to me and that was over eighty years ago it would take 30 to one to deliver the same firepower as one man armed with an HK 91 or FN FAL or 37 to one to equal the firepower of a modern AR chambered in 7.62X51/.308 HMM 37 guys trying to manuver around with a 8.8 pound 48.5" long flag pole with only 5 shots per reload. Sorry that is not really a practical weapon for defense or offense against modern fire arms a modern bolt action rifle would be devastating against the nagant sorry that is fact and if you would like to have it proven we can put your nagant against my Savage L111 then if you want to keep going vs. my Bushmaster M4.308 6 targets 300 meters timed if that doesn't convince you, you are suffering from HICS (Head in Cement Syndrom) I keep saying this and have said it in other threads you do not plan for the minimum you plan for the above average and add some. I will give you an example in a collapse situation roving marauders are more likely to have A) vintage bolt action military and hunting firearms in groups of 1 to 3. B) ACR's, Miniguns, and light pack Artillery in groups of 40 or more or C) modern Semi automatic weapons of various calibers and ranges in groups of 5 to 30. Look at reality and the numbers and availability of modern weapons this is no longer the 1980's where the most common household weapons were bolt action rifles, revolvers, and pump shotguns reality has changed, change with it or die, it is real simple. I am extremely well trained with firearms and in tactics and luckily also a naturally gifted marksman I would not chose a bolt over a Semi auto to bug out with or carry in either a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI you would have to be insane or stupid to make that choice if you have that choice to make. Fortune favors the prepared. It is great that 7.62X54R is cheap the old Warsaw Pact countries including Russia are ceasing production on top of that I guarantee for every 8 aimed shots you get off with you nagant, I can get 40 aimed shots off. By the time you cycle your bolt to load the first round in the chamber to challenge me I can put three in your chest anybody with a semi auto and a little practice can what happens to your family or what you were defending after that??? I love historical fire arms only the rare few can compete with modern weapons (ie the 1911A1 ect.) and I have several but the day an event happens and I have to chose I will destroy them if I can not take them And I will not hesitate in doing it and I wont regret that decicion because I can do everything with a modern weapon that I can do with an antique and much more I am also more sure of modern metalurgy than that from the turn of the previous century all of that said...

This was my comment to the rifleman magazine post.

Very good versatile platform but the 5.56/223 is a lousy cartidge and I say that with 20 years of military service and wear the 1st ID Big Red One, 101st Airborne Air Assault Screaming Eagle, 3rd ID Rock of the Marne, and the 13th ESC among my Combat Patches with multiple tours with most of them I personally own the best of both worlds with my 7.62X51/.308 early model Bushmaster AR my weapon uses standard and metric FN FAL magazines and the 7.62X51/.308 Win is even more common not just in the states but worldwide than the 5.56/.223 which serves best as a varmit round which is where it should stay not in a combat or defensive weapon. So to sum up I have all the versatility and familiarity of an AR with the punch of an M1A/M14 with a fully loaded weight of just 9.20 lbs

 

P.S. I just had a custom made gas piston installed on the Bushmaster cleaning is a dream now

 

P.P.S. Damn not to demean your thoughts on this but I would even destroy my McMillan in favor of my Bushmaster which with a Leupold 3-12 power scope has printed 3" groups at 800 meters with the 20 inch barrel I would rather have the versatility to clear a building, hold a small groups head down in a running battle allowing me to E&E if I was discovered for any of a number of reasons I can think of giving me a chance to accomplish that and get away, or drawing them away from my family or group and take those moderately long range shots with one weapon than walk around carring a sensitive precision long range weapon that has to be rezeroed every time it gets bumped knocked over ect and requires constant calculations for each shot in addition to the sight picture and squeeze the first shot is always the easy one after that they are looking for you now it becomes a cat and mouse game. I did the counter sniper role and you know what uncle says the only good hostile snipe is a dead one by anymeans availabe. I was alway's taught 1 shot on the target and then you bug out and vanish if you don't control the area your operating in or have some serious support. Every shot after the first tells them where you are that is why it is, one shot one kill.

Edited by warrior7r

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Good stuff by everyone so far.

 

BUT its about the everyday person haveing the right DEFENCEIVE TOOL!

Its about MONEY....AMMO..and can you take it apart blind folded and put it back so it works..

 

After LONG talks with others on this site/being cash straped like many/I have to outfit my self with what I can lay my hands on!Than get the ammo(500 rounds of each)that will support myself and family..

 

I just like others took the Need of"tools" to say "What works best at the most"

 

My answer..

.45apc..Rock Island..Yep I learned at 18(Ft Lost in the woods) to use it..My wife calls it "Little boy"

SKS..7.62x39..Its a 30cal. and ammo is cheap..I have restored it to a usefull condition(took off scope and added butt plate).My wife calls it "Fat boy"

 

My 22mag bolt...100 yards..anything under 100lbs in the woods..supper..

 

12 gag. pump...speaks for itself..Home and field..

 

9mm SRPc..CFOs defence..17+1.Hollow points..

Quote"if I fire 17 rounds fast enough and they are still standing..i still can reload another clip.."

 

Future..working on...300 savage/lever.with scope..Its about price.(half the cost of a new .308 in a pump).ammo is consern,but the price differenc makes it a non question.

 

So purchase what you can AFFORD...

 

Me Im happy..all the way out to 600 yards because of these mountains are close and I dont need to reach out past 600 yards..May be different in FLAT Land country...

 

JMO..and Im betting my life on it!!!

Edited by 101matt

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Matt,

I was at Lost-in-the-Woods myself. Interesting place, that.

 

Warrior,

Without disputing your facts, remember we are NOT talking combat ops, we are talking survival. Your weapon must perform all (at least most) survival functions well will giving you a decent chance to E&E out of a bad spot. In a world where ammo resupply might be a pipe dream, you do NOT want to be engaged in massive fire fights. Actually in any world, you do not want to be engaged in ANY firefights. Only mall ninjas think they are cool. I agree completely with the choice of the .308. A much more flexible round than the 5.56 in my opinion. In RVN the reason so many troops carried a thousand rounds of ammo was because they needed them to do the job and they had constant resupply. A stand up fight after TSHTF means you've blown it somewhere. I really don't see it happening often if at all. A few on few, maybe, but nothing out of Mad Max. The reason the Apache traveled in small groups in the 1800's was that small groups were all the land could support.

 

Most military combat does not involve aimed shots, unfortunately. Even now, the drive by shooters use spray and pray targeting. While your facts may be sound, this is not a military discussion. This is a discussion of what will be the best weapon to use that will maximize your chances of survival. While I like .308, I will not belittle the 7.62X54R. For most survival situations, that will do the job nicely. If price dictates that choice, you are far from disarmed. If you are proficient with it, you have a great advantage over the never trained gang banger.

 

While I appreciate your skill with a rifle, the ability to hit at range may be less important to the guy trying to E&E out of downtown. I still give the edge to a .308 (I like PTR but that's my bias) over smaller calibers but I would not choose to go unarmed just because a Mosin was all I could afford. Just like I would not feel disadvantaged with a lever gun (I do like them better than bolts). If the topic is many on one combat, I want full auto, preferably belt fed and in .50BMG caliber. I also want continuous resupply. Not really viable choices for a scenario that provides a solution for a problem that looks highly unlikely to me, based on history.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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While I have a "few" ARs, and a few Mini-14s, if I was "stuck" in an all out survival situation, I would have two rifles for sure. One a Rugged 10-22 and the other my trust sporterized Moisin-Nagant carbine. Both are work horses and reliable. I am extremely accurate with both. Ammunition for both is plentiful and I have puh-lenty on hand and for reloading the M-N. (remember, I am an alumni of the USAF SAC-trained Nuke Puke School for Gentlemen-we believe in airstrikes as well as self-sufficiency. And yes, I "know" some of you feel that the USAF isn't really the military)

Edited by Malcolm

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Capt Bart,

I did say if you had that choice to make you have what you have but I would even take a 5.56/223 over a nagant if I had the choice I am not saying I am going into combat or even that is the expectation. what I am saying is that in a colapse situation roving gangs and bands of marauders are probable and lets face it as an old NAM vet you and I both know tango's (charlie) has a bad habit of catching you with you pants down and situation C is the most probable. I have never advocated seeking out a firefight nor would I (I have Been in way to Many you can ask the DR's or we can count scars together) but say your watch fell asleep and there is no time to slip away by the time your battle sense is tickled are you going to keep 4 or more tango's armed with semi auto's (which have become prevelant even as hunting weapons like the modern Browning BAR 6 round semi auto with detachable box mag the majority of .22's sold are semi auto's) pinned down long enough with a Nagant so your family and responsibilities can slip away or if they come across you while you are scavenging or bartering how about Mid Crisis when that partially armed riot his headed toward you (it is amazing how fast it stops and turns away when they take twenty casualties in a couple of seconds), that is not realistic yes we work with what we have even you given they choice PTR or Nagant I guarantee you take the PTR you would be a fool not to. MATT has a workable set up he can lay down surpressive fire if needed he can rapidly engage multiple targets his range and power is lacking for big game hunting and so is his accuracy 150M but in reality 150M is enough for hostile to pass by without knowing you exist. As far as aimed shots and the military there are a few of us that do not Spray and Pray I will put a couple rapid shots around you to get you to hunker down or give me a chance to better my position (this is the point of fire power) but there are about 20 living Iraqi insurgents that can attest I aim, they are missing their right hands and are paralyzed from the waist down both shots accomplished within two seconds of each other. I had to stop because I was told it was cruel on the up side they will never see their Heaven never be Martyrs and because of their decision they are a drain on their family and tribes resources the others before that and after that I just nuetralized permenantly from Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afganistan, Iraq, Iraq*, Afganistan, Iraq, and Iraq (asterick denotes the afore mentioned actions time frame. The spray and pray comes from fear the movies and poor training it is unnessasary and extremely wastefull. What you have is what you have. The point of preparedness is to plan for work toward and add to, to accomplish your planned goals if you got the Nagant so you have something good but if you stop there because you believe it is sufficient your wrong. What I am Saying Cap is not to count on substandard or limited unless you have no other choice Let me say that again substandard (below the average you commonly find) or limited (as in its versatility) because SHIT HAPPENS I have travelled with Murphy and his cousin Larry way too many times to lock myself into the narrow path.

Edited by warrior7r

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W7r..Thanks..yep the sks will work in a pinch for 30yards to 150..thats all i need a semi for/yes i need a 100 yard to 300 yard long gun .300 savage/lever works for me..light easy to handle and clean/proved in the field for over 90 years..and its about money..lol

 

you do have a feel for combat/and im sure that it will come to that point here in America again..I will keep my head down and avoid a longer shoot out to 400 yards or longer,but I know that with practice I COULD REACH out just like the .308 does..

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The nagant is a good durable gun and as a bolt gun I prefer it to most of the cheaper modern bolt guns(remington 770, ruger american etc) as far as the sks I own a few and have nothing but good things to say about it as a semi-auto. Of the two I'd chose the sks for survival , length and weight being the main concerns with ammo availability the clincher (7.62x39 is MUCH more common than 7.62x54). But the ruger 10-22 is my FIRST choice.

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Warrior,

I have Been in way to Many you can ask the DR's or we can count scars together

In my not so humble opinion, ONE firefight is way to many!

 

No basic disagreements. I may have been having a bad day but I took your original post as a bit too strong on the "M-N is no good as a survival weapon" side. I've run into way too many who think full auto in an AR platform is the ONLY rifle to have. I've even read it in more than a few books.

 

I've explained way too many times why I don't like the AR platform but your AR-10 sounds like it might work well as a backup .308 lead launcher. I'm think M1A (that is what I was looking for when I found my PTR).

 

Thank you for sharing your view point. I recognize that there are situations that not even a "Ma Duce" won't get my out of alive. I just tend to think the money is better spent for more needful items until your basics are taken care. I keep flirting with the .50 Beowulf. Like a Grizzly .50 BMG, I don't NEED a modern .50 load but I really would like to have one. If I have the time before TSHTF I may yet get one.B)

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Cap’n do you ever hit the road? You have a standing offer to hit the range and I’ll bring the Beowulf and the Armalite 50 BMG. I have some other ‘interesting’ guns that are fun to shoot. But for the life of me, I can’t see why anyone living in Texas would want to step one foot in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts. But if you do, come on down!

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Capt Bart,

I do not have any use for full auto and if I do in a survival situation I am in the Kimchi so bad that I am not getting out neither is anyone else because in that situation one machine gun wouldnt be enough since this isnt the movies in reality holding the trigger down for more than a 10 seconds melts the barrels and a runaway weapon. Only fools attack in wave formations so unless you have a thousand rounds of belted to waste for a few dozen which is usually close to what it equates to rock and roll is worthless however mastering yourself and a good, solid, powerful cartridged, high capacity, SEMI Auto is a devestatingly efective combo in almost every situation wheather it is one shot on that Elk that will feed everyone for two weeks, Taking out those three dirtbags that threatened your family, trying to get away from that clan of psycho hillbillys that ran across you foraging in the ruins or abandoned buildings for supplies or popping off a couple of rounds in the direction of that gang of youths that almost found your family and are now following you away from those you care about because you got their attention by taking a couple of them out before they could discover or hurt yours. FOR EVERYONE I am not advocating being Rambo I am advocating options on a more level playing field using a bolt or single shot weapon for hunting is fine and in a very limited scope for defence it might work however the first show of revolution did get one thing right when the malitia arrives and that fight goes down and they are out there skirmishing and the Capt. of the malitia says enough and pulls out that semi auto pisolt and puts down more people in a couple of seconds than all the members of the village and malitia did combined in a couple minutes. A semi auto will end the fight with bolt or single shot weapons the same way. There are way to many variables to say you will get the drop on you advasary, that you will get the first shot off, that it will be aimed and on target or you will have enough firearms in play to guarantee th above. I understand money plays a huge factor I scrape for everthing I have I have to plan a purchase of a couple hundred dollars months in advance a thousand dollars a year in advance putting food on the table is first priority, basic defense second, long term Defense needs to be factored in and planned for realistically. We are not talking defending against a military platoon or the zombie hordes at the same time it wont be the lone desperado packin a colt peace maker and a 1903 Springfield. Look at the news at these mass shootings and you will see what the playing field is

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Cap’n do you ever hit the road? You have a standing offer to hit the range and I’ll bring the Beowulf and the Armalite 50 BMG. I have some other ‘interesting’ guns that are fun to shoot. But for the life of me, I can’t see why anyone living in Texas would want to step one foot in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts. But if you do, come on down!

 

Coastie,

I did some work up at the Haystack in Lowell for a couple of years. The Autumn up there is beautiful but I really wouldn't want to live there. Way too much government for me. Of course, if you're ever out Houston way ....

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Cap’n, my goal is to move to Texas! But I can’t do so yet. My wife followed me all over the world during my Coast Guard career and never complained once. I got orders to move to Spain in 30 days and she packed up the house and kids and off we went. She also spent years alone with the kids when I was serving on isolated duties (three times). When I retired and move to Mass, so the kids could meet their grandparents, my wife found her dream job. In my opinion, she earned the right to be happy at her job since she followed me all over the world. Until she retires, we are here in Mass. But we’ll be moving south west immediately upon her retirement! So look out!!

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There is one thing I would like to know. I have been reading quite a few posts about what kind of weapons one should have in a SHTF situation and how much ammunition. You know, it is all well and good to have various specialized weapons, calibers and other items for your weapons if you have a secure base camp or home BOL. But, what are you going to do if you have to man pack your gear? How much ammo can you carry as a basic load out. How many weapons will you be carrying? And how much ammo for each weapon?

Do not forget that you have all of your other essentials to carry also. What is the least you can get by with? And for how long? How many of your good weapons and ammunition will be left behind if you have to Get out of Dodge quick? I remember that some folks left behind quite a few things when Vietnam fell.

This would require a load out of some weight. Once you run out of ammo all you have is a very expensive club.

I would like to know what you intend to do to remedy this problem.

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