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Rod

UAV’s and US Airspace

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This past week my wife and I visited our son and his wife down near Tucson. He works for General Atomic maintaining Predators. I have read some wild speculation about the thousands of UAV’s that are patrolling US airspace spying on us. One number I read was 30,000 UAV’s.

 

I would like to assure folks that that is not the case. The Predator is the most numerous of the UAV’s produced and there are barely 1,000 in existence. Most of them are overseas.

 

My son got permission for my wife and I to tour the facilities at Fort Huachuca where he is on assignment for a couple of months. There were only a few Predators there and they were being used to train Army personnel. The folks there were nice enough to allow me a little time on their field simulator flying the Predator. What a thrill!

 

Anyway, I know we all deeply involved in prepping and sometimes it is possible to get a bit paranoid. Rest assured that UAV’s are not circling your house.

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Nice little trip Rod. I'm empressed that your son is there. As far as speculation about the UAVs

flying around spying on us, I'd think first the operators were training. Where I'm at, it's nothing to

see the old C130s, Blackhawks and occassionally an old Huey from the guard or reserves. I've

even had a squad during a training excerise or FTX come up on me when I was scouting for deer sign.

LOL They shoulda been useing their FLIR. They didn't know I was there till they were up on me.

 

Glad you two enjoyed yourselves. Hope you got to spend some time with your son.

 

dr

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Hmmmm, I am not into conspiracy theories, but…

 

I believe that no one has claimed that the drones flying over the USA are Predator drones. I think people use the term “Predator” whenever discussing flying, unmanned vehicles. But making a drone is not overly complex and well within the budget constraints of federal, state and local government. It is not hard to build an unmanned flying surveillance machine. I know that some tree hugging protestors built a flying drone make a digital recording of a hunt at a gun club. The members of the gun club shot the damned thing down. I loved it. I bet that I could build an unmanned drone capable of recording the ground below it. ‘Rocket City Rednecks’ built on in a weekend that could easily follow a person running. Making a drone is not rocket science…

 

That said, I firmly believe that the various government entities are using unmanned drones to gather information on people. Call me crazy if you’d like but, Google it and see how many times people have been caught by unmanned drones.

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Hmmmm, I am not into conspiracy theories, but…

 

I believe that no one has claimed that the drones flying over the USA are Predator drones. I think people use the term “Predator” whenever discussing flying, unmanned vehicles. But making a drone is not overly complex and well within the budget constraints of federal, state and local government. It is not hard to build an unmanned flying surveillance machine. I know that some tree hugging protestors built a flying drone make a digital recording of a hunt at a gun club. The members of the gun club shot the damned thing down. I loved it. I bet that I could build an unmanned drone capable of recording the ground below it. ‘Rocket City Rednecks’ built on in a weekend that could easily follow a person running. Making a drone is not rocket science…

 

That said, I firmly believe that the various government entities are using unmanned drones to gather information on people. Call me crazy if you’d like but, Google it and see how many times people have been caught by unmanned drones.

 

Predator is the name of the unmanned and unarmed UAV produced by General Atomics. Reaper is the name of the unmanned and armed UAV produced by the same company. At this time they make up most of the UAV population.

 

There is a large difference between a small R/C UAV and a full size UAV like the predator. The small R/C drones are easy to build, have line-of-sight range, very limited flight time measured in minutes, and require only one person to operate them. Their intelligence gathering capabilities are very limited, usually short range video.

 

A full size UAV, like the Predator, require a multi-man crew, extensive base support, have an over-the-horizon range (up to 200 miles), and their intelligence capabilities include, high power video, 30 to 40 hour loiter times, electronics gathering, and automatic control should their link drop. They cannot be easily built.

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There are whole new classes of mini/micro drones in the works. These new machines will make in possible for every police organization/search and rescue group/organization out there to own one. I've seen kids' toys that would class as a 'drone' with a camera in it. I've launched model rockets with cameras set to click photos as soon as the chute deploys. The hidden 'eye in the sky' is not a technical possibility for anyone with enough cash to afford a nice handgun. There is no guarantee of privacy any more, no matter where you are located.

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I would like to assure folks that that is not the case. The Predator is the most numerous of the UAV’s produced and there are barely 1,000 in existence. Most of them are overseas.

-------------

Anyway, I know we all deeply involved in prepping and sometimes it is possible to get a bit paranoid. Rest assured that UAV’s are not circling your house.

 

Sounds like you had a great trip! That would've been awesome to go to...

But just because they told you want they wanted you to hear doesn't mean there's not reason to still be paranoid... I tend to have a wee bit of trust issues when it comes to the govt...

Nice try though :) I'm still gonna wear my tin foil hat.

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Sounds like you had a great trip! That would've been awesome to go to...

But just because they told you want they wanted you to hear doesn't mean there's not reason to still be paranoid... I tend to have a wee bit of trust issues when it comes to the govt...

Nice try though :) I'm still gonna wear my tin foil hat.

 

Want to compare tin foil hats? :P

 

So, looking for a little paranioa? Look up "Stellar Wind" on Google.

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Rod, agreed, I also understand the difference. What I meant to say is that the normal person on the street uses incorrect names. That’s all.

 

If a person can make a home built drone with video and audio, imagine what a government, even a local or state government, can build.

 

I bet that I could build a drone with the abilities to run both video and audio surveillance operations also use it as an offensive weapon. I don’t think it would be too hard to make some sort of delivery devise. Heck, it could be done on a bar napkin.

 

The problem that I have with the government using drones over the nation is that they can run illegal, unauthorized surveillance over Amerikans. They already use cameras to punish Amerikans. Using drones, privacy will become a thing of the past. There will be no such thing as illegal search as they can be done from the sky using video and infrared. I do not trust our government officials with technology. Drones just open the doors for further abuse.

 

But I would have loved to take that tour with you. I really love watching how intelligent folks leverage technology to get the job done. Drones in war are 100% awesome in my mind!

 

BTW, I make tin foil hats and knives! Just let me know your size... or do I know it already? Hmmmmm.

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too bad they dont use them to help the border patrol, bet they could be very usefull in catching drug smugglers and illegal entries

 

Actually, they are used for border patrol. More commonly used is the "Goldfish" or "Areostat".

 

post-1736-13851498239563_thumb.jpg

 

The Aerostat is tethered so it can remain aloft for as long as the weather permits. It is much more cost effective than a Predator but can only observe a fixed area. Perfect for guarding the border.

 

We should not underestimate the technical difficulties in using drones to spy on individuals. It takes a lot of resources to mount a mission to observe just one person. On the order of ten people per mission. So widespread use to spy on many people would rapidly deplete the resources needed to be effective. That is why I believe that general large population spying is impractical with a UAV.

 

Having said that, there is no need to use UAV's. The cell phone, iphone, ipad, ect., in your pocket does that right now. The "Stellar Wind" program gathers all that data for the NSA. It is thoroughly unconstitutional and was not that way before 911. Thanks go out to the congress for passing the anti-terrorist laws that permit such activity.

Edited by Rod

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too bad they dont use them to help the border patrol, bet they could be very usefull in catching drug smugglers and illegal entries

 

Actually, they are used for border patrol. More commonly used is the "Goldfish" or "Areostat".

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1428[/ATTACH]

 

The Aerostat is tethered so it can remain aloft for as long as the weather permits. It is much more cost effective than a Predator but can only observe a fixed area. Perfect for guarding the border.

 

We should not underestimate the technical difficulties in using drones to spy on individuals. It takes a lot of resources to mount a mission to observe just one person. On the order os ten people per mission. So widespread use to spy on many people would rapidly deplete the resources needed to be effective. That is why I believe that general large population spying is impractical with a UAV.

 

Having said that, there is no need to use UAV's. The cell phone, iphone, ipad, ect., in your pocket does that right now. The "Stellar Wind" program gathers all that data for the NSA. It is thoughly unconstitutional and was not that way before 911. Thanks go out to the congress for passing the anti-terrorist laws that permit such activity.

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Rod, if one leverages technology better, it would not take 10+ people to run surveillance on a person. Let’s say that the government wants to peek in on a 3%er. One could easily cut out over 12 hours per day when no watching is necessary. Their e-mail and Internet use is already being tracked and the time he normally signs on the web is gone. If, while reading his e-mails, the authorities see that he and some friends plan to meet someone, say a gun range. Now the drone goes up and video, audio and Infrared can be in play.

 

Also, since you have included many other ways the government can track a target, do you think they already use those technologies – without authority – for the courts? I strongly believe they do it. I think they do it all the time or whenever they feel like it.

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Rod, if one leverages technology better, it would not take 10+ people to run surveillance on a person. Let’s say that the government wants to peek in on a 3%er. One could easily cut out over 12 hours per day when no watching is necessary. Their e-mail and Internet use is already being tracked and the time he normally signs on the web is gone. If, while reading his e-mails, the authorities see that he and some friends plan to meet someone, say a gun range. Now the drone goes up and video, audio and Infrared can be in play.

 

Also, since you have included many other ways the government can track a target, do you think they already use those technologies – without authority – for the courts? I strongly believe they do it. I think they do it all the time or whenever they feel like it.

 

In terms of the UAV it takes two to fly the Predator. A pilot and a copilot to operate the camera and other devices. There are two ground crew for launching and recovering the aircraft, a commander which oversees the mission, two maintenance crew, one managing the control trailer, and at least two in the control tower at all times. And that not is counting guards and other base personnel. If the mission exceeds about 6 hours you need to replace the pilot and copilot and others as necessary. It is a lot of work and resources for one mission, although some resource can overlap.

 

I cannot speak for the requirements for electronic intelligence gathering. I know that the vast volumes of data being collected is automated to some degree but I would imagine a considerable organization is required to sift and direct the information.

 

I don't know enough to really discuss it with you but I think that there is a big difference in targeting a specific individual and monitoring a large group of individuals. I think that is why any group of four Soviet citizens had among them one spy. :rolleyes:

 

Lets see, 25% of the population comes to a big number! B)

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Rod, I totally understand that the Predators take a lot of personnel to make the system run but I am talking about your local, slightly insane Chief of Police… like some we have up here in Massachusetts.

 

There is absolutely a huge difference between monitoring a group or a single person. But, at least in my eyes, any unauthorized surveillance is wrong and a violation of that individual’s Constitutional Rights. I also worry about the federal government, too. A while ago the administration laid out their characteristics of a homegrown terrorist. I put a checkmark next to all of their criteria. A few that I recall of the top of my head are:

 

White male

Strong believe in the Constitution

Pro-2nd Amendment

Gun Owner

Ex or retire military

Right-wing (To me, Rush Limbaugh is a liberal... and he is)

 

Also, I don’t trust our government. They may say that they’re here to help, but I don’t believe it.

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I guess I am missing a step here excoastie. What exactly are you concerned about?

 

Violations of the constitution in terms of unreasonable search and seizure? In August 2008, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review ruled that the President and the Congress had the authority to wiretap international phone calls and intercept e-mail messages without a specific court order. There is a great deal of evidence that the technology being used is also being used for domestic wiretapping. Until we get a stronger pro-constitution Congress and President that will continue.

 

Are you concerned about the "local, slightly insane Chief of Police"? Sure, a small UAV could be used to track an individual. It would be very difficult, yield limited intelligence, and cost a lot. But it could be done. Is it being done? Possibly, but I doubt it. It would be much easier to assign an officer to dog a person's daily activities.

 

Until a UAV becomes self-aware and considerably more sophisticated they are not going to be following you around.

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Rod, I distrust the government on all scales: federal, state and local. I know that all governments will violate the Constitution if it helps them reach their goals. I know that they want to further limit our liberties. I also know that they will watch people that they feel are not sheep to their control. I know that our government will use technology to their advantage and they’ll do so with total disregard of the Constitution and our rights. So, if they find a way to monitor people, they will do so.

 

So, I generally distrust the government and I know that they will do whatever they want to their subjects. And, in my opinion, I believe that they will use unmanned drones to gather information regardless of legality. Think of all the things that the government has done wrong (I can provide a list if you desire) and tell me that you trust them. I am not saying that the military is using drones over the republic, but I am also not saying that they are not doing so.

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excoastie,

 

I don't disagree with you at all. In this crazy world one of the hardest things to do is maintain a sane balance. I try very hard to make sure that I operate based on the facts as best as I can.

 

Do I trust the folks that are presently running our government? No, I do not. Do I trust my son and my nephew, who is presently an Air Force Intelligence Officer running a department currently in the Mideast? Yes, I do.

 

Perhaps I am wrong, but I believe that there is a large layer of folks serving our country that do have integrity and act as a buffer against the upper echelon of elected liars. They can't do a perfect job and there are leaks through the buffer. But by-and-large thay act as a counter balance. They are under a lot of pressure right now and need our support. One way of supporting them is voting along conservative lines. Another way of supporting them is acknowledging their existence and targeting our criticism. Like a smart bomb we need to have "smart criticism". Praise the good folk, target the rest.

 

Thats my position, and I am sticking to it! :rolleyes:

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Rod, like you, I trust the military ‘working class’ much more than I do the higher echelon. I worked in Coast Guard Headquarters for my last three years and I saw how the place operated. They didn’t care about mission. They certainly did not care about the enlisted person. They would stab you in the back if they thought that it would make them look good. The place has pockets to evil in it. And yes, I mean evil.

 

The question becomes, “Will the soldiers with the guns in their hands fire on the Amerikan citizen?” I believe that most, when given the order, will fire on civilians. They’ll think that they are simply following orders. If you don’t believe me, look at Kent State. And, if one really wants to open the book of evil deeds, one need only to watch the news footage and read the results of Ruby Ridge and Waco. Look at how many cops shoot the pets of innocent Amerikans. Look at how many citizens get shoot by the police and then it ends up the cops served their warrant at the wrong house or killed an innocent resident. It happens far too many times.

 

I believe that far too many military members will fire upon the public. I believe that the government will use every tool available to achieve their goals regardless of what the Constitution states. What do ‘We the Sheeple’ do when fired upon by Amerikan troops?

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Don't worry folks..they're 3 Laws Safe!

 

Actually, Rayz, they are not. There are rumblings around about autonomous drones with 'kill' authority for certain 'selected' targets in certain 'hostile' environments. Doesn't sound like any '3 law' programming in that particular drone. Now if we can just set up a big weather warning computer to control the drones .........

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Rod, like you, I trust the military ‘working class’ much more than I do the higher echelon. I worked in Coast Guard Headquarters for my last three years and I saw how the place operated. They didn’t care about mission. They certainly did not care about the enlisted person. They would stab you in the back if they thought that it would make them look good. The place has pockets to evil in it. And yes, I mean evil.

 

The question becomes, “Will the soldiers with the guns in their hands fire on the Amerikan citizen?” I believe that most, when given the order, will fire on civilians. They’ll think that they are simply following orders. If you don’t believe me, look at Kent State. And, if one really wants to open the book of evil deeds, one need only to watch the news footage and read the results of Ruby Ridge and Waco. Look at how many cops shoot the pets of innocent Amerikans. Look at how many citizens get shoot by the police and then it ends up the cops served their warrant at the wrong house or killed an innocent resident. It happens far too many times.

 

I believe that far too many military members will fire upon the public. I believe that the government will use every tool available to achieve their goals regardless of what the Constitution states. What do ‘We the Sheeple’ do when fired upon by Amerikan troops?

ExCoastie,

I disagree and I think the current regime disagrees as well. That is why the massive ammo buy (in the neighborhood of 1.2 Billion rounds) for non-military policing agencies. I don't know if basic training still focuses on defending the constitution and the need to disobey illegal orders but I do know that the Social Security enforcement guys, for example, with their 200,000 or so rounds of hollow point, .40 ammo would most likely have no problems 'enforcing' the fiats of the regime. I'm afraid that is true for all sorts of folks - postal inspectors, IRS agents, BATFE folks, U.S. Marshals, FBI, Treasury, heck, for all I know, the Surgeon Generals office or the CDC.

 

That I find kind of scary.

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ExCoastie,

I disagree and I think the current regime disagrees as well. That is why the massive ammo buy (in the neighborhood of 1.2 Billion rounds) for non-military policing agencies. I don't know if basic training still focuses on defending the constitution and the need to disobey illegal orders but I do know that the Social Security enforcement guys, for example, with their 200,000 or so rounds of hollow point, .40 ammo would most likely have no problems 'enforcing' the fiats of the regime. I'm afraid that is true for all sorts of folks - postal inspectors, IRS agents, BATFE folks, U.S. Marshals, FBI, Treasury, heck, for all I know, the Surgeon Generals office or the CDC.

 

That I find kind of scary.

 

Capt Bart,

 

Could you clarify what you are disagreeing with? Do you think that members of the armed forces are not trusted by the current regime to carry out their orders? Are your thinking that is why they are depending on the non-military agencies?

 

Just trying to undersand your train of thought.

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Excoastie,

I agree that the higher echelons do NOT care about the troops for the most part, exceptions to every rule. I think most troops will NOT fire on American civilians, but I know they are maintaining about 20k active troops near DC who WILL fire if given the order (these are selected by the surveys given to troops asking if they will. Being in an MP unit, we were given that survey). I'm not as worried about the American troops, but I feel this is why we have so many foreign troops on our soil and why the deployment tempo could be up for the Reserves and National Guard.

If the middle east explodes on several fronts, our military will be deployed and we will have NO formal response to an invasion or "police action" on our soil. There are several paths "they" can take to implement their will and they will render our military a non-issue by sending them elsewhere. IMO.

 

Capt,

No, the Constitution and disobeying illegal orders are touched on but not really dwelt on much in the current BCT regimen (or wasn't during mine which was after 9/11). They do spend alot of time in "legal" briefs making sure the troops realize that anyone carrying a weapon is a threat while deployed and pushing this agenda. I believe they are working on subduing the problem solving of our troops/kids enough that they will fire on Americans when given the order. I had to talk to my troops that we wouldn't fire on someone who just had a rifle (if pointing it, light them up) because I felt we brought Freedom to Iraq based on American Freedom and that included the 2d Amendment. I asked if they felt they should be shot by a un person for having a rifle walking around in their hometown? They answered NO and I think it sank in what was being said. I just hope the NCOs can keep instructing the troops in true American values and the decent Officers will be allowed to progress up the ranks so we can get true military leadership and not the "sheepdipped" pukes (I have other terms but remaining family friendly) they keep "placing" in the military to further their unAmerican agenda and criminal actions.

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