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PandaSurvivor

Rifles and Side arms

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I am not as big a fan of the 12 ga as I was when I was younger. The 20 does just as well at most ranges and has much less recoil. Even the .410 does the job.

 

Unquote:

 

 

 

Wait a second Cap'n. I thought that you liked making BIG holes. You should be recommending a 10 gauge!

;)

 

if I ever meet someone who goes duck hunting with a 10 guage I will gladly admit that they have more balls than I do. I shot my uncles 10 guage about 8 times one day and the when I woke up the next morning I thought my shoulder was gonna fall off lol

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no experience but the "masterkey" concept it is for a very specific purpose of blowing off door locks for entry teams. the very short barrel, not too mention how it is mounted would make for an awkward shot for a shotgun. not too mention how bulky it is going to make your AR. also dont forget you are going to go talk to mr or misses BATF and fill out a lot of paperwork and give up some bills for the privilege of owning one.

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no experience but the "masterkey" concept it is for a very specific purpose of blowing off door locks for entry teams. the very short barrel, not too mention how it is mounted would make for an awkward shot for a shotgun. not too mention how bulky it is going to make your AR. also dont forget you are going to go talk to mr or misses BATF and fill out a lot of paperwork and give up some bills for the privilege of owning one.

 

To clarify a short barrel shotgun is a class three firearm and this one thing that I have been very curious about the Taurus judges getting away with does anyone know if the BATFE has commented on this in any way or are they just waiting to use it later if needed

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wardog,

wise words sir. Throwing a slug or bag at a lock is a unique mission I don't envision for myself. The added weight of the shottie takes away a great deal of the AR's attractiveness as a weapon.

 

Dondon,

I don't know about the Judge. Smith makes a similar weapon (Governor?) and there are more than a few Derringer type .45/.410 combos.

 

From http://www.bukisa.com/articles/433313_the-taurus-judge-is-taking-the-marketing-bull-by-the-horns

In order for Taurus to avoid every owner of a judge having to get a short barrel shotgun permit from the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) they had to have rifling in the barrel. Without rifling it would be considered a short barrel shotgun by the ATF and would be against the law to own without a permit. The problem they found is with normal rifling it tends to spin the shot upon exiting the barrel and would rapidly spread the shot 360 degrees and compounding this problem is a 3 inch barrel. So to overcome this issue, they made the rifling less aggressive so it would spin the .45 Colt to stabilize the bullet, but not spin the shot out of control as soon as it leaves the barrel.

 

Note you still shorten the range of the shotgun. It appears it is the rifling that gets past the short shotgun problem.

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Cap’t, I have a Judge and each night it resides within arm’s range… just in case. I have taken it to the range a few times and using the 410 four pellet rounds, it’ll rip up a bull’s-eye at fairly close range. I figure that in the dark, the flash of the Judge will look and sound nasty and I don’t have to worry about over penetration when I have the four pellet 410 loads. And, if the first three 410’s don’t do the job – and I can’t see how that is possible – rounds number four and five are 45 Long Colt. If that doesn’t stop a bad guy or two then they are mean, tough sons of guns and you might as well bury me with my favorite Hawaiian shirt. I highly endorse the Judge. I hear the Governor is good but I’ve never fired one of them. Also, the Governor shoots a 410/45 Long Colt and 45 acp.

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Droptrd,

I'm not completely sure I get your point. I think any deer rifle may be a tad stompy for small furry rodents. Most deer calibers (personally that's 7mm/.280 up, some would argue 5.56/.223 but I think that caliber places too much reliance on the skill of the shooter to be called a 'deer rifle') have the ability to shoot a wide range of bullet weights; it is possible to load out for almost anything. It is just easier for a larger caliber to do the job of a smaller caliber than the other way around. Did I miss something in your meaning? To me the survival rifle is the one that can do the largest number of survival jobs; that moves a survival rifle into the .30 caliber range. If you must have an E&E/bug out/close quarters combat weapon then there are other options but the .308/.30-06 will do those roles and still be a solid hunting arm. I'm not sure I could say the same thing for a 5.56.

My post was kinda vague. Sorry. As an all-around survival rifle, I feel a 30 caliber firearm is not a good choice. Shooting small game with a 308 or 30-06 wont leave much to survive off of. hunting deer with a 223, 243, 204 or even a 22LR is illeagal in most states and definately unethical. But deer can be taken with those calibers as well as small game. I do not assume one would be "ethical" toward game in a survival situation. It could and probably come down to "be unethical and survive" or "be ethical and potentially starve".

 

As a defensive survival rifle, 30 caliber rifles are a top choice for distance but in CQB some can be a potential for over-penetration IMO even though they will dispatch most any threat.

 

30 calibers are great. I own a few. But for one rifle only?

 

Load out weight and capacity are factors for me as well

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droptrd,

OK, I get your point. Not sure I completely agree for several reasons. First there are quite a few "30 caliber" weapons other than .308 and .30-06. My thought is that it is much easier for a larger caliber to do a smaller caliber's job than the other way around. I've run across some pretty lite 30 caliber rounds. Probably wouldn't cycle a M1A or PTR-91 but in a bolt or as a recognized single shot they'd work well. Then there are other choices - the 30-30 is probably as good or better than anything out there at under 200 yards and I do love lever guns. There are also the pistol calibers for a little stompier round for deer and such. The high powered .22X calibers just are too much for the really small game so they don't solve the problem either.

 

Actually, a .410 shotgun is great for the small stuff and birds. Put a single shot .410 (or a double) and a .30 and you actually have a good combo. The problem is that NO weapon is perfect for every situation. There are always compromises. The 5.56 was selected for its ability to be a full auto assault weapon. That is what it is best for and every other use is a compromise. Some compromises are more successful than others but the same head shot that lets a 5.56 give you a squirrel for the pot will also give you an eatable squirrel from a .308.

 

I guess I'm strongly on the side of larger caliber can do the job of smaller caliber a lot easier than a smaller caliber can do the job of a larger caliber.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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Reg, I totally missed this reply. What kind of flintlock do you have? I really didn't even think about going as far back as a flintlock assuming if I got a muzzleloader I'd get a percussion cap Knight or something. That's a good nugget you've planted there.

 

A quick Google search resulted in some very pretty albeit very expensive flintlocks. Can you give us a link to what you have, something similar, or what you'd encourage us to get?

 

Being a recipient of the Cabela's catalog this is what immediately came to my mind. http://www.cabelas.com/traditional-rifles-shotguns-cabelas-traditional-hawken-flintlock-rifle-hand-1.shtml

 

AF, I'm leaning towards a hand-made one for the ultra primitive events (buckskinning) but the Traditions flintlocks are very well made and function good. I personally am looking at another 45 cal since I do not have to worry much about bears in my current locale. I would tackle a black bear with a 45 but Lewis and Clark talked of problems with the grizzlies even with their 54's.

 

Sorry for the late reply, been working ALOT...lol... and out of town presently. I lost my Kentucky (along with a few others) when my cousin's house burned down a few winters back. He had borrowed them while I was "away". I'm slowly replacing them. I have several muzzleloaders (even got Dad one of them "fake" inline jobs...lol) but they still need percussion caps or 209 primers, where I can find flint (or even buy a ton now reasonably) after TSHTF.

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Cap’t, I have a Judge and each night it resides within arm’s range… just in case. I have taken it to the range a few times and using the 410 four pellet rounds, it’ll rip up a bull’s-eye at fairly close range. I figure that in the dark, the flash of the Judge will look and sound nasty and I don’t have to worry about over penetration when I have the four pellet 410 loads. And, if the first three 410’s don’t do the job – and I can’t see how that is possible – rounds number four and five are 45 Long Colt. If that doesn’t stop a bad guy or two then they are mean, tough sons of guns and you might as well bury me with my favorite Hawaiian shirt. I highly endorse the Judge. I hear the Governor is good but I’ve never fired one of them. Also, the Governor shoots a 410/45 Long Colt and 45 acp.

 

Similar to the load out for my 'walk the dog' gun. I carry a Blackhawk with 3 chambers of shot shell followed by 3 rounds of .45 ACP. The only advantage the Governor seems to have is the extra chamber plus the .45 ACP added to the mix. Not bad but Smith is more expensive by a chunk of change (or at least it was when I saw it last).

 

I don't own a Judge because I deemed it too bulky for concealed carry. That is not always a requirement of course, but it kept me from buying one. I'm saving for a Ruger Alaskan so I'll just do without a Judge ..... maybe.

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So I have read through this thread and noticed that no one mentioned the .300 acc blackout. I know this is a very new cartridge and hasn't proven it self yet but I have recently purchased a daniel defense AR .300 blackout and I love this gun it does have kind of a lot of drop about 12 inches at 200 yard depending on what grain bullet your shooting. I have a very nice scope with mil dots to help with this and plan to get a 18" barrel in hopes that it will help. The bullets vary from 110-245 grains so you have a very large selection to choose from depending on what your hunting or range your defending. the 110 grains are shooting at about 2200 fps and the larger 220-245 grains are going about 1400 to 1200 good close range or hog hunting though. another thing that I really like about this gun is all you need to shoot a .223 out of it is a different barrel, it uses the same magazine so my 100 round beta mag works great. I also picked up a keltec su22 the only thing I don't like about this gun is the rear ghost ring sight but I will be changing that. I was recently on vacation and popped a couple rabbits and squirrels with it and over all I am very impressed with it. breaking it in was a bit different because it doubled on me several times but after about 200 rounds or so it is shooting great not doubling anymore and is pretty accurate, it folds in half and only weighs 4 lbs great for a bob.

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I have my zero set at 50 yards, I still need to get some more range time in and I am going to change the zero to 100 yards. It's the 125 grain that I have been using but I think I am going to change to the 110 grain, because it has a little more muzzle velocity. this cartage was created to compete with the 7.62x39 or the ak-47, the 115 grain bullet has the same energy transfer as the 7.62x39 upon impact. the difference is the .300 blackout is a longer bullet so it breaks up a bit more on impact. Oh ya this thread was also about side arms I LOVE my glock 35 it is the most accurate pistol I have ever shot and has a very manageable recoil at least for me.

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sorry regulator you had another question I have a 16" barrel on this gun not sure if that's considered a rifle or carbine. But I am looking into getting a 18" for it both a .223 and a .300 blackout just to make the gun a little more versatile.

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Just a quick side note...

 

Everyone has been talking about nothing being left if you hit a squirrel with a large caliber round (30-30, .308, 30-06) as opposed to a .22.

 

Doesn't anyone else remember about 'barking' a squirrel?

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Never mind I know what your talking about vonBayern, squirrels have this strange thing they do where they faint basically and it can actually kill them. I have seen this happen twice once it was a squirrel we were raising from an abandoned baby and another when 2 squirrels were fighting and one bit the other neither of these squirrels died from it though. It is kind of a defense mechanism that will save them from the pain of being eaten. Rabbits have a similar thing where they can actually kick so hard that it breaks there spine and kills them, also to save them from the pain of being eaten at least scientists think that's what it's for.

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Just a quick side note...

 

Everyone has been talking about nothing being left if you hit a squirrel with a large caliber round (30-30, .308, 30-06) as opposed to a .22.

 

Doesn't anyone else remember about 'barking' a squirrel?

I heard of it in a Louis Lamour book, and it sounds like it should work. What do you think Reg?

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I heard of it in a Louis Lamour book, and it sounds like it should work. What do you think Reg?

 

I have barked a few. We've used 223's in the past and a friend of my dad's used a 30/06 to demonstrate. I still prefer a 22.... alot quieter...lol.

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One,

while a 12 inch drop seems a lot, a 50 yard zero is probably your problem. The 300 blackout loses velocity quickly according to the ballistic bullet drop data if found. 300 yards appears to be the limit of its effective range if I read the charts right and it does fall quickly. Not a bad thing if you know your round and its limitations.

 

For what it is worth, I'd set the zero for 150 yards and see what that gives me at 50, 100 and 200 yards. I suspect that would be your best zero to maximize the effectiveness of the round but I don't know. Try to find a zero point that keeps your round with say 3 to 4 inches of aim point at as many places as possible to give you maximum flexibility. I'd guess that will be 100 or 150 yards but don't know.

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