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oregonchick

Would an election defeat actually HELP the Republican Party?

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OregonChick, keep on going; at least you are backing something you believe in and not JUST voting against someone!

 

Thanks, I guess. I consider myself more of a moderate... or perhaps, if there were a "pragmatism party" that would suit me better, because I'm mostly concerned about doing things that actually WORK rather than doing things because one side likes/dislikes them.

 

Right now, I despair over political discourse in our country. Politicians on both sides talk down to and mislead the voting public because it's politically expedient, which just infuriates me. And I fully believe the Republicans do this not simply in an offhand way, but as a way to systematically shut out citizens from the process. That they do it while calling themselves patriots and telling people it's for their own good makes me incredibly angry. And that Democrats don't effectively counter this (but instead use it as an excuse for their own poor behavior) and that the media just "reports" what's said instead of challenging it for factual accuracy or logical coherence makes me want to scream.

 

We should scrap most of the curriculum in schools and start teaching critical thinking. Of course, that would require making education a priority instead of one side treating it like a sacred cow and the other treating it like a punching bag, both seeing it as a debate over unionization instead of one of the most important contributions the current crop of leaders on all political levels will make to America's future.

 

It may only be 1:30 in the afternoon, but I seriously need a drink.

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You talk about the number of people PROSECUTED but not the number or people who ACTUALLY COMMITTED A CRIME. heres and example.

I smoked pot all throughout high school as did the 20+ friends i hung out with. how many of those friends ever got in trouble 5. How many of them actually got prosecuted? 1. Think that number would be a little higher if we required drug testing for school? (not saying we should just an example) maybe a better example would be the number of football players who took steroids in high school and didnt get caught? so take that pretty little 86 with a grain of salt and think about how many weren't caught/prosecuted.

 

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" "no photo ID, no vote" rule is an easy way to disenfranchise a lot of Americans"

Application for ID from DMV - $20

Copy of birth certificate to give DMV- $14

cost to get on welfare $0

as an illegal immigrant? $0

If you even think that it is unreasonable for someone who gets free money from US- THE TAX PAYERS to spend ~34 on a simple ID so they can vote but instead do nothing but be a strain on the rest of us, there is something seriously wrong. if it mattered that much to someone they can make a next day appointment at the DMV, walk in take a pic and have an ID card within 2 weeks.

 

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"25 percent of voting age African-Americans and 15 percent of voting age citizens who make less than $35,000 annually lack valid photo IDs"

I would bet money that a VERY significant portion of that statistic contains people on welfare (note i only jumped on welfare because the writer of that article cited a specific race of the population, that same race also happens to be a huge percentage of welfare recipients)

http://www.cato.org/research/pr-nd-st.html

"To match the value of welfare benefits, a mother with two children would have to earn as much as $36,400 in Hawaii or as little as $11,500 in Mississippi."

 

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Keep in mind obama EXTENDED tax cuts.

You talk about the deficit, but keep in mind the debt and deficit are two different things.

Debt- how much money the govt owes to people

Deficit- How much money the govt spends vs how much it takes in.

right now the debt is climbing and the deficit is higher than it was with bush.

current debt- 16,008 billion and rising.

The Debt rose $4.899 trillion during the two terms (8 years) of the Bush presidency.

The Debt as risen $5.382 trillion under Obama so far

Deficits Pres Sen House

2002 $157.8 Billion Deficit R D R

2003 $377.6 Billion Deficit R R R

2004 $413 Billion Deficit R R R

2005 $318 Billion Deficit R R R

2006 $248 Billion Deficit R R R

2007 $161 Billion Deficit R D D

2008 $459 Billion Deficit R D D

2009 $1413 Billion Deficit D D D

2010 $1294 Billion Deficit D D D

2011 $1299 Billion Deficit D D R

2012 $1209 Billion Deficit D D R (so far)

If you ask me he's doing something wrong.

 

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$716 billion from medicare.

That article bugs me in a few different ways. first the numbers it sited dont add up. i've typed enough here already so hear you go.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/08/16/fact-checking-the-obama-campaigns-defense-of-its-716-billion-cut-to-medicare/

Edited by Mudbass7

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Why am I always late to the party?

 

Okay, since I am here, both parties are liberal. Both parties have the same goal; increase their power base, their voting base and their personal wealth. Neither party cares about the republic. Neither party cares abut the Constitution. Neither party respects and cherishes our rights, our liberties or our property. They all abuse their power. They all abuse the people. And they do it all for all the wrong reasons.

 

Their best weapon and their strength is keeping the sheeple divided into little “us versus them” communities. They divide us along the following lines (not a complete list):

 

Race

Sex

Sexual Preference

Economic lines

Social Status

 

The peddle greed and the sheeple fall for it. They punish high performance and reward horrible behaviors. And, as long as the people stop living their lives as well kept sheep, the politicians will continue their abuse.

 

Oh, and lastly, there are no such things as ‘tax cuts’. There are tax rates… period. :)

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You talk about the number of people PROSECUTED but not the number or people who ACTUALLY COMMITTED A CRIME.

 

You cite the example of the number of people who smoke marijuana vs. the number of people who are prosecuted for it, and give a personal anecdote (not facts/empirical evidence) to support it. And I agree, there are MANY who use drugs who never cross paths with the law.

 

But where's ANY evidence of widespread voter fraud? Where's documented cases that election results have been altered substantially by voter fraud? And I'm not talking about a few people here or there who voted who shouldn't have, but something that shows systematic failure to ensure only eligible voters have done so?

 

Because if there's not any evidence that voter fraud is a serious problem, there's NO WAY it's worth disenfranchising up to 11% of the potential voter pool simply because something "might" happen.

 

 

"25 percent of voting age African-Americans and 15 percent of voting age citizens who make less than $35,000 annually lack valid photo IDs"

I would bet money that a VERY significant portion of that statistic contains people on welfare (note i only jumped on welfare because the writer of that article cited a specific race of the population, that same race also happens to be a huge percentage of welfare recipients)

 

Guess I missed the part of the Constitution and/or election law that states that welfare recipients aren't citizens, or aren't entitled to vote. What's the income threshold? Should we also ask people to prove that they are "productive" enough to be allowed to participate in elections?

 

I'm suddenly exhausted. And really, really sad.

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just watched the video,(not coasties, the one OC put up)-sorry had to go provide the finest medical care tax dollars can buy-to an inmate--so srry for delayed response)he doesn't mention how they are going to keep people from voting- just that yes it will benefit romney..and?.. sorry guess i'm missing the point and i still dont see how requiring an ID keeps people from voting,,old, poor, or what ever.It may be inconvenient for some is all i can think of..i will try and read the actual proposal /bill does it say people are denied due to age or color or financial situation? i wouldn't think so... now if its meant to stop people voting in counties/districts where they are not registered then that is understandable, jmo, as i do not have all the facts and the video is, what amounts to, a very short sound byte...

Edited by rayz

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Rayz, you might consider watching that link. It might open your eyes as to how our government works. It sure opened mine! It shows that maybe our votes don't count as much as we think they do. In that case, the voter fraud is not done by people, but by politicians. That's why I posted it.

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You cite the example of the number of people who smoke marijuana vs. the number of people who are prosecuted for it, and give a personal anecdote (not facts/empirical evidence) to support it. And I agree, there are MANY who use drugs who never cross paths with the law.

 

But where's ANY evidence of widespread voter fraud? Where's documented cases that election results have been altered substantially by voter fraud? And I'm not talking about a few people here or there who voted who shouldn't have, but something that shows systematic failure to ensure only eligible voters have done so?

 

Because if there's not any evidence that voter fraud is a serious problem, there's NO WAY it's worth disenfranchising up to 11% of the potential voter pool simply because something "might" happen.

 

 

 

 

Guess I missed the part of the Constitution and/or election law that states that welfare recipients aren't citizens, or aren't entitled to vote. What's the income threshold? Should we also ask people to prove that they are "productive" enough to be allowed to participate in elections?

 

I'm suddenly exhausted. And really, really sad.

 

I'm sorry that i made a simple example instead of finding a full blow example. i just simply trying to make a point. and no, I'm not saying they shouldnt be allowed to vote, im not incredibly sure how you got that from what i wrote. My point is, ITS NOT THAT HARD TO GET A DAMN ID.

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has everyone forgot the acorn expisode of multiple votings from one person(s) NONE of them were prosecuted yet we have video evidence of the fraud just becuase people aren't getting prosecuted doesn't mean its not happening and wide spread. its not hard to register to vote i know i've registered to vote and im a poor person i also prep and i am a poor person and i eat well have gas in my truck and get

to go out to eat every so often. typical urbanite

 

 

acorn fruad list: http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html

Edited by wally

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has everyone forgot the acorn expisode of multiple votings from one person(s) NONE of them were prosecuted yet we have video evidence of the fraud just becuase people aren't getting prosecuted doesn't mean its not happening and wide spread.

 

THAT was my point.

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Regarding ACORN and "voter fraud" - from the Annenberg Public Policy Center's FactCheck.org:

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/

 

Summary

The McCain-Palin campaign accuses ACORN, a community activist group that operates nationwide, of perpetrating "massive voter fraud." It says Obama has “long and deep” ties to the group. We find both claims to be exaggerated. But we also find Obama has understated the extent of his work with the group.

 

Neither ACORN nor its employees have been found guilty of, or even charged with, casting fraudulent votes

  • What a McCain-Palin Web ad calls "voter fraud" is actually voter registration fraud. Several ACORN canvassers have been found guilty of faking registration forms and others are being investigated. But the evidence that has surfaced so far shows they faked forms to get paid for work they didn’t do, not to stuff ballot boxes.
  • Obama’s path has intersected with ACORN on several occasions – more often than he allowed in the final debate.

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Regarding ACORN and "voter fraud" - from the Annenberg Public Policy Center's FactCheck.org:

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/

 

Summary

The McCain-Palin campaign accuses ACORN, a community activist group that operates nationwide, of perpetrating "massive voter fraud." It says Obama has “long and deep” ties to the group. We find both claims to be exaggerated. But we also find Obama has understated the extent of his work with the group.

 

Neither ACORN nor its employees have been found guilty of, or even charged with, casting fraudulent votes

  • What a McCain-Palin Web ad calls "voter fraud" is actually voter registration fraud. Several ACORN canvassers have been found guilty of faking registration forms and others are being investigated. But the evidence that has surfaced so far shows they faked forms to get paid for work they didn’t do, not to stuff ballot boxes.
  • Obama’s path has intersected with ACORN on several occasions – more often than he allowed in the final debate.

just one more step to the cliffs edge i say but please vote for obama and see how much more friendly hes goona get to the prepper movement...

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Regarding ACORN and "voter fraud" - from the Annenberg Public Policy Center's FactCheck.org:

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/

 

Summary

The McCain-Palin campaign accuses ACORN, a community activist group that operates nationwide, of perpetrating "massive voter fraud." It says Obama has “long and deep” ties to the group. We find both claims to be exaggerated. But we also find Obama has understated the extent of his work with the group.

 

Neither ACORN nor its employees have been found guilty of, or even charged with, casting fraudulent votes

  • What a McCain-Palin Web ad calls "voter fraud" is actually voter registration fraud. Several ACORN canvassers have been found guilty of faking registration forms and others are being investigated. But the evidence that has surfaced so far shows they faked forms to get paid for work they didn’t do, not to stuff ballot boxes.
  • Obama’s path has intersected with ACORN on several occasions – more often than he allowed in the final debate.

 

Jesus christ. its not JUST ACORN. stop getting away from the actual issue.

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Then cite other examples. Because what I've done is respond to the specific concern that was raised AND REFUTED IT using a non-partisan source for information... actually, I've done that more than once in this thread, only to be dismissed as a "true believer" (apparently without any sense of irony) or have someone simply reassert - without proof and/or without even apparently reading any of the provided information - their original position. Please, forgive me for not bowing down in the face of willful ignorance.

 

It seems like you're convinced there is a problem, even in the absence of proof, which is exactly the point to the original article about how citizens are being misled via the repetition of lies/misinformation - and why that's such a danger to our political system. I challenge you to show concrete evidence from a reliable source - not a conservative PAC or think tank - that voter fraud is rampant or widespread. Of course, uncovering voter fraud was actually a big priority for President Bush, and the investigative team he appointed to unearth evidence of it was largely unable to come up with more than a few score convictions AND none of them pointed to the kind of concerted, systemic fraud that you'd THINK was happening given GOP rhetoric about the need to make it more difficult for the poor, minorities, and elderly to vote. But maybe you'll find something that nobody else has been able to.

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O. C. Has a point..

 

Give a detail thats provable..NOT HERESAY...we cant let one side do it and NOT admit the other side does it also..

 

RED or Blue TINTED Glasses NEED to taken off...This is what both partys want ..to be side tracked with SMOKE and Mirrors....

 

 

“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”

― L. Frank Baum, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz

 

“…and the next moment all of them were filled with wonder.

For they saw, standing in just the spot the screen had hidden,

a little old man, with a bald head and a wrinkled face,

who seemed to be as much surprised as they were.”

― L. Frank Baum, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz

 

Enough said..

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OC to my knowledge i've responded to all of your claims with facts. if you like i can link all of my sources.

You acted like acorn was the only instance of voter fraud, but if you read the rest of Wally's post- "... just becuase people aren't getting prosecuted doesn't mean its not happening and wide spread." Which brings me BACK to my marijuana analogy. and whether or not it IS happening, It's not hard to get an ID. It's not hard to keep that ID in your wallet or purse or pocket or whatever you have. Asking someone to prove who they are before they vote seems more like a common sense issue rather than anything to do with partisanship. You have to prove who you are to drive, go on a military base, cash a check, pick up a prescription... but not vote???

Everybody has the right to free speech but you still can't yell FIRE in a theater (unless there's a fire) Every right comes with responsibilities.

Am i convinced that it isn't happening? No.

Am i convinced that it IS happening? Yes. Why? Because there's been people prosecuted for it. End of story.

And to be honest with you, this issue never really hit my mind until reading this thread.

 

Here. a left wing news source. partnered with CBS and owned by Gannett Company.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120516/NEWS15/205160363/State-audit-shows-dead-people-prisoners-cast-1-500-votes

 

Also, not sure what you've refuted.

Edited by Mudbass7

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Just to stir the pot. I think you should have to serve in the armed forces in order to hold office OR vote.

 

While that sounds good...

 

Personally I think that if your on the government dole, you don't get to vote till your off it. But your idea isn't bad either...Heinlein suggested that in several of his books if I remember right.

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OC,

 

The question that I have is this: How do you know illegals aren't voting? You don't need a birth certificate to get a Tx. drivers license. How are the people at the polls to know who is eligable to vote and who not?

 

For that reason I don't have a problem with requiring an I.D. to vote.

 

And to add to the confusion...I came to this country <legally> with my parents in 1961. I had to carry a green card until 1975 when I became a U.S. citizen that was also the year I joined the military. So my view point is fairly harsh in these matters.

 

I don't have a problem with requiring EVERYONE to have some form of valid ID linked to a birth certificate or naturalization certificate to prove you are eligible to vote. Texas will even GIVE you a free ID card if you require one. So this crap about disenfranchising a group of people from voting by requiring an I.D. is just more bullshit the current regime is trying to pull.

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Bullshit IS their game. Obummer is the best BS artist I have ever seen.(said with a hint of admiration) If, after all his broken promises, people would still vote for him, he may be the greatest of all time.

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If the US Constitution were properly amended to make this constitutional, I would support it. And, just so the lesson sticks, I think that every US military member ought to have to serve two years as an enlisted person before becoming an officer. Then all officers will know what it is like to be a mushroom at the deck plate level.

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