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Danm

The Final Insanity

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C'mon Hoss, tell us how you really feel..................

 

Nothing to add here other than my worthless .02.

 

Voting rights: How about you have to produce a W2 or 1040 showing that you've actually paid in. No dog in the hunt.......no vote. OK, allow retirees and a few other structured exceptions but if you're sitting home waiting on your freebies then stay at home on election day. No more foxes guarding the henhouse. Oh yeah, IQ tests too.

 

Term limits: 2 terms, one in political office, one in prison. OK, old joke but absolutely, limit terms. Oh, and when you leave you don't get a huge check for life, full insurance, blah blah blah. The problem with any political office is that it's too lucrative. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic but you should feel a need to serve your country, not your own self interests.

 

MSM: Now here's one of the few places I believe in regulation. You should have to get a license. You can either be a certified journalist or a news reporter. All news outlets should be labeled "Fact" or "Opinion". First time a registered news reporter states an opinion, no matter how veiled, $100,000 fine with penalty getting stiffer with each subsequent infraction. Oh, and it has to be very well labeled on the screen in big enough letters so there is no mistaken ID. This is for the dumb masses.

 

Education: This will take years but do away with teacher's unions, raise the standards and get back to one room school houses. Also, voucher, voucher, voucher. I went to public schools and did OK. My daughters went to public schools and one turned out well, in spite of it. The other is, well, see "dumb masses" above. All grandkids are enrolled in Private Christian schools. At their ages 6-12, they far, FAR surpass all of their peers in cognitive skills, critical thinking and awareness of surroundings. And this ain't just a proud grandpa talking. Most other kids I see their age are mouth breathers in comparison. Now, before anyone says anything about the "Christian" aspect of it I will expand: I consider myself a Christian but not a good one. I don't go to church often and have broken most of the ten commandments, some often, the old coveting thing comes to mind. I don't care if my grand babies grow up to be 4 times a week church goers but they WILL have a moral foundation to build their life around.

 

I know I'm missing some points but I had a long day.

 

Do I think we are at the end of this country? I think it is a distinct possibility. However, I do not think it's hopeless. I try not to be an unrealistic optimist but I do feel folks are waking up, maybe just not as fast as needed. When you-know-who won the election in '08 I wanted to puke. Not that I though McCain was the next Reagan, we all know he's a RINO. Even Reagan, as much as I worshiped the man, was on the wrong track in some ways. The downhill slide started way, way before him. I'd like to think that we can all look back on this era as one of a great awakening. The TEA Party may be the first in a long line of movements to get us back on track. I truly do NOT think that the majority of Americans think along the lines that "polls" (I use that term loosely and don't trust them AT ALL). I think there truly is a silent majority out there that knows things aren't right, haven't been for ages but feel hopeless. Who knows, maybe O was the best thing for this country. That's the way I felt about it the day after the '08 election. I thought to myself "Ok, give the dumb masses what they want". When his 4 years are up people will be screaming to lose that bastid and folks like him. Sometimes it takes a wakeup call (somehow Gunny Ermey banging garbage can lids together and screaming comes to mind).

 

I do wonder if there could be some sort of civil war. That is a subject for another night. I will say though that I'm not too concerned about which side would win.

 

Having rambled above I'll end the night by saying that if the South breaks off from the Union I nominate Hossfly for President. I know a lot of people, a LOT of people, and he's the only one I trust explicitly with my vote. :D

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HahHah! I know me and would't even vote for me!

Laurie and I were talking about education today. She's worried that Kat is suffering effects from he radiation and chemo. I stated what I thought was obvious. Kat hated to read before all the cancer treatments, didn't read for three years during it because the public school system here in Mobile sucks, and got behind so now she has trouble reading. She's enrolled in a private Christian school now but things take longer. We help as much as we can but it's like pulling teeth to get her to read. Reading comprehension is the biggy. As far as common sense and ability to relate to adults, especially doctors, she's first rate. My suggestion (overall, not just because of Kat) is to get rid of the Dept of Ed and bring that power back to the states at most and preferably the local communities. Just a start if I were Prez!

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I've been around Kat. The one thing I didn't notice was her lack of common sense and cognitive skills. Your babygirl is gonna be alright Hosster. She's got an education in life that very few people will ever come close to.

 

Plus, she loves crab claws so I know she's a superior human. B)

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Ready, The government of the United States is actually organized into FOUR bodies. They were intended to act as checks and balances to prevent a Government that would become oppressive. The failure of the Fourth estate has almost totally destroyed that balance though.

 

The fourth estate is actually the most powerful and important but over time changes in laws have not just weakened it to the point of impotence it has actually made us forget that it even exists. WE THE PROPLE, the Constituency are the Fourth Estate.

 

Slowly over the decades the government has added more and more people to that group until not there are even movements to allow imprisoned convicts to vote. Ms. Clinton actually introduced a bill to that effect at on point. Originally the constituency was made up only of responsible land holding citizens. Now even a retard that isn’t potty trained has the right to vote. Criminals get their vote back after their sentence is served, people on welfare vote, the senile and just plain stupid vote…is it any wonder that we are messed up. I can’t believe that kids aren’t on the Democratic list of potential voters. Most kids are actually smarter than a lot of the above mentioned folks.

 

This was NEVER the intent of our founding fathers and has almost destroyed our Democracy.

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You're correct Danm. The people need to be more involved and educated in the governmental process. They were, in the form of state powers though, until May 31, 1913 when the 17th amendment was passed. The 17th gave the people the power to elect their own senators, but this took away the power of the states to recall senators who were not performing their duties to the satisfaction of the states or their constituents.

Until that time, senators were elected from the State Legislatures and were under direct "control" (not entirely correct but close enough) of the states. This gave the people the power of government in essence.

Oddly, by giving people the power of the popular vote, power was removed from the hands of the people.

 

And I agree that only those who own the land or at very least are not on government assistance should have the right to vote. I also believe that politicians should have term limits. We'd lose some good ones, but we'd keep total power away from the bad ones.

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Added when I came to post this...Hoss things have reached the point where we would be better off selecting our leaders by LOTTERY. At least then we would stand a CHANCE of getting a good honest person.

 

 

Hoss no arguing. I like your post it makes me think and hones my point. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word SIN. I wasn't referring to it in a religious sense. What I meant is WRONG as in mean, greedy and vulgar. I don’t have a problem with people keeping most of what they make as long as they aren’t doing it to the point of massively harming the culture that allows them this freedom.

 

The super rich are now treating the US just like a corporate raider treats a company that they have taken control of. They are going to wring us dry and then dump our bleeding corpse into the toilet. Might does NOT make right. Just because you CAN do something doesn’t mean that you should. Just because I was a LOT bigger than my classmates didn’t mean that I should bully them or take their stuff. I easily COULD have but didn’t because I understood right from wrong.

 

When a mega-billionare buys a company, strips it, lays off all the workers and ships those jobs overseas to add another billion to his pile of wealth he is no different than I would have been had I taken my classmates lunch money when I already had money and a lunch.

 

The wealth of America comes and came from our wildly massive natural resources. These resources were here when the country was formed and WERE owned by all citizens. Slowly the rich paid off the government to more and more place these resources solely into their hands. This was tolerable because in the past they properly handled these resources offering other Americans pay in the form of jobs and also paid a large part of the cost of the government.

 

Now they have almost sucked us dry and are in the final divestment where they pull the cash out and run. Hoss, do you REALLY think that it is right for one man to have everything and allow the rest to STARVE. If you do then I bet you just love the way the Saudi run their country.

 

Why is it right for a man or company to destroy the lives of thousands just so they can have another big mansion they don’t live in and another yacht and a couple more half million dollar cars. These entities are making misery with their greed! Just because a Chinaman will work for a dollar and hour and live in a hundred and fifty square foot apartment, SHOUD they dump their American workers and make them lose their homes so they can have TWELVE mansions instead of just TEN?

 

I’m NOT a communist nor socialist but capitalism run wild is the most vicious form of society there is. It is based on the firm belief that Might IS Right. I believe that everyone should work and in their work SHARE in the prosperity that that work creates. What we are headed for is NOT capitalism. It is a form of totalitarian tyranny where it is all for one and none for all. The wealthy control the Government and the government controls the masses.

 

There is a point of revolution that some can calculate based on the division of wealth in a culture, how low the middle class is and how much of the wealth is controls by the top 3% of the population. The middle class is the secret to understanding this point. The welfare people don’t revolt because they are just not that motivated and generally they are so self-centered that you can always buy their leadership and appease them with a few crumbs.

 

The middle class is made up of the DOERS of a culture. The rich guy says there is gold in those hills and they go dig it out. The rich guy gets richer selling them what they NEED to dig it out and what they want when they get a little cash ahead. The poor live off the flotsam created by all this wealth flow.

 

When things are tough the poor can be kept in control with a little drug and a little food. It doesn’t matter if the drug is Ripple or crack it’s all the same. The worker bees don’t want that. They NEED useful, meaningful work and a higher standard of living. If enough of them don’t get it their energise turn into other directions. As I understand it the magic number is around the 12% to 15% line. If that many middle class people fall into poverty they will revolt. It’s a little like nuclear fission…critical mass. We are currently around 10% and sliding.

 

Look at the French revolution and the Russian Bolshevik revolution and see what that means. Hitler came to power because of this ratio imbalance. The American Revolution happened at 13%.

 

The problem is that when the revolutionary roulette wheel starts spinning you NEVER can be sure where the little ball is going to land in the end.

 

Middle class is a relative thing. In the middle east countries like Saudi get by because they have a history of REAL poverty. Their middle class may look like poverty to us but to THEM it is prosperity. In other more developed countries a fall that would still look pretty darn good to others maybe even MOST people, it is still the PITS for them.

 

Our middle class thinks they NEED two cars, a boat, several TVs and other assorted gadgets along with meat at every meal, lots of eating out and all sorts of other goodies. The fact is that we could live as well as our parents did on almost one minimum wage job. This is a FACT. I know it because I’ve DONE it. That doesn’t matter though…we don’t want and will not accept living like that. We like Air Conditioning and several cars and all the other things that we see as making us middle class. Take that way and we WILL revolt.

 

When we do, guess who is going to find their heads on the chopping block?

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Danm, you and I could have a great time sitting face to face over a drink and talking all night! I miss nights like that! I agree with tons of what you posted above. Don't agree with the Saudi thing though. They're a monarchy, which is why the ruling family is so wealthy. We are not. If a guy thinks there is gold in them hills and digs it out to get rich enough to pay somebody else to dig for him, then all involved profit. The guy who started it got rich and the guy who works for him, or sells his labor to the rich man for money, also profits. The laborer can also look at the other hill, and say to himself, " I bet there's gold over there." and he can start off on his own venture. If it works, he gets rich and hires other people or he loses everything and must find profit elsewhere. It's his choice and his chance. Still, free market economy.

I also get the feeling that you're looking at wealth as a fixed amount. Wealth is not fixed, it is created. And in order for one man to get wealthy does not mean that another man loses wealth. There is no zero sum gain. Sometimes the rich do take from the poor. Sometimes the poor do take from the rich. Sometimes, some enterprising fellow goes out to dig his own hole and create wealth.

You are also talking about crony capitalism, in which certain capitalists are in bed with the government. An example of this is GE which pays no taxes, makes no products in America, and employees very few Americans. The head of GE is Obama's Job's Council Advisor. I agree wholeheartedly that government and private business should not be in collusion.

I enjoy reading your thoughts on the subject. You made me think and nobody has done that in a long time!

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There is nothing more boring than a bunch of guys and gals sitting around nodding like bobble head doll in total agreement. You NEED someone to disagree with you to force you to actually THINK. Like you I enjoy friendly discourse. Sadly this isn't possible with a lot of people. I've run several boards over the years and many, especially liberals consider name calling and throwing insults to be debate. I hate that sort of thing and will part company fast with someone that thinks that if I dare to disagree with them I must be an evil SOB.

 

In the Islamic Middle East names don't mean the same as they do here. The Saudis call their leaders kings the Iraqis called Saddam the president. Don't be fooled in both cases the ONLY way to remove them from their office was revolution and to kill them.

 

We are on a fools errand over there. We are trying to set up a Christian Democracy in an Islamic nation and that isn't possible unless we want to stay there and enforce it forever. There is a difference between our peoples and in that difference lies our problems. Christians SERVE their God. We serve in the military and the President serves a term in office. Islamic person SUBMITS to their God and does so in all his relations with powers that are above them.

 

To them there is a security in having a fearful leader. If they aren't afraid of him then their enemies won't and that means they are about to get stomped on!!! To them someone that doesn't offer to hand them their head on a plate and instead is polite and asks them to do something is weak and below their notice.

 

Carter made kissy face with the Iranians and stabbed The Shah in the back. He thought a Non-Christian King was a BAD thing and wanted them to be free and elect a leader.. The Iranians thanked him by taking our embassy and spitting on him. Regan offered to kick their buts so they backed off. George the First kicked Saddam's butt and then snatched defeat from the jaws of victory...Clinton went weak tit and let a few people chase him out of Samallia. He made kissy face with them to the point of refusing to let the military take or take out Osama Bin Laden they loved it and Saddam loved it and threw the UN inspectors out of Iraq. George the Second went in kicked Saddam's ass again then snatched Defeat from the jaws of victory and now we have a new Democratic President Guess what is coming...B. Saddam Obama is going to make kissy face if he is elected again...

 

If we are not going to fight a war to WIN we need to stay out of other peoples business. A war means that you beat on somebody until the surrender unconditionally and STOP all fighting!! The rules of engagement our people are working under over there is INSANE! Bring them home and let the Arabs go back to killing each other. All we need to do is make totally certain that they understand that if we HAVE to come back because they crossed the US again that we would wipe them out this time...and MEAN it!!!

 

Hoss in some ways I'm a social moderate. That means that I believe that the strong have an obligation to protect the weak and stupid providing that they are worthy. Where I'm different is that I EXPECT them to appreciate it and then do better or I'll take their kids and put them in jail for not supporting those kids.

 

I suspect that you don't understand wealth at the level that I'm talking about. At that point it is all about POWER. There have always been powerful people. In the past powerful Americans took care of Americans. That didn't make them nice but they were honorable in a way that today's powerful people are NOT. They were AMERICANS. None of the new group care about America or Americans. All they care about is more power. They are the enemy of all honorable free men. I'm not talking about millionaires, these people have reached the point where money is meaningless...

 

Oh well the US has had a pretty nice run. In the end all empires go down when the greed of their leaders make them too weak to survive.

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Didn't mean to leave the conversation hanging Danm. Things got busy around here for a bit.

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote above. I do understand "wealth at that level". The gathering of wealth leads to more power, which leads to more wealth. It's a never ending cycle. But I still and always will believe that the heart of this nation is based (partly) on property laws, or more exact, the right to keep what we earn for ourselves. Those who earn great wealth should, out of the goodness of their heart, help those that can't help themselves. The thing that I disagree with is that the government should force them to do so.

I'm hanging out in my big chair half watching the DNC. Heard a lot of opinions today on talkshows while I was driving. The Repubs have started asking the question if we are better than we were four years ago. Most of us aren't. Strangely, those in power (on both sides) are. The Dems harp on Romney's tax return and his accounts in Swiss and Cayman banks, and have reduced women to nothing more than a reproductive vessel with all this talk of "women's healthcare" when all they mean is that they think birth control should be free. The Repubs harp on , well, all the things that were promised but not delivered. I still can't figure out why I should be more concerned about how Romney spends his money than how Obama spends mine. More spending, more debt, more entitlements, more wars, more lies, more government... Less freedom, less safety, less time. I forget who the philosopher was that said it, but it boiled down to a general limit of 200 years for most Democracies (I know, we WERE a Republic), with them going through these stages in their life:

From bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependency back into bondage.”

 

I think we're moving from apathy into dependence now. How far away is bondage?

Edited by Hossfly

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The thing is Hoss that such as this is what a government is SUPPOSED to do. Instead of trying to be a giant sugar tit for the entire world they should be encouraging people to do what is right and then let them do it. There are tax deductions to encourage people to give to charities. What I'm talking about in no way restricts any persons right or ability to accumulate wealth. All I want is to see to it that they do it in a way that doesn't cut the throat of EVERY single American that isn't in a 7 to 10 digit income tax bracket.

 

If the rich and powerful keep exporting jobs to better line their pockets America is going to dry up like a mummified corpse!!! Wealth in the sense of only accumulating CASH in the pocket of one individual WILL in the end result in a truly tragic revolution. The results of that sort of thing are totally unpredictable. On one side you have the American revolution and Washington but more often you end up with a Hitler or Stalin.

 

Most of the great families of wealth in the past made their wealth in an asset based form of wealth. They didn't have the just huge personal cash wealth that is common now. They were "encouraged" to reinvest their wealth back into America where now they are investing instead in the economies of other countries because it means more wealth for THEM.

 

The government can either encourage them to "play" fair with their fellow Americans or face a revolution that will pull down both the government and the lower level rich. Wow, I wish someone would force me to own a couple hundred business and make a couple million dollars a year. I know it is awful but the bastards are exporting our life blood to line their already bulging pockets.

 

We no longer COULD fight and win another WW2 type war. We've exported our manufacturing facilities so the super rich could add another zero to the end of their worth. We no longer HAVE the skilled work force that it took to build the weapons and ships that won WW2. They converted bicycle and tin can factories to war production. A machinist doesn't car what he is making so the switch over was easy. The ship yards shifted from ship repair to ship building...now there are no ship yards where I live. There used to be three in the Beaumont Texas area alone but now they are gone.

 

Even if we could build the factories we would have hell manning them. A middle management white collar worker isn't going to make a good worker. You just can't boot strap the skilled crafts that are required to run a war.

 

The government is about WE THE PEOPLE. WE deserve to share in the wealth as long as we are willing to work for our share. What pisses me off is when these SOBs close productive profit making factories so they can move them overseas just so they alone can make MORE.

 

If we are going to work on the sole basis of hooray for me and to hell with you then I will eventually put a bullet in YOU if you keep screwing me to death and starving my kids. You talk like I'm saying that the rich should have to just GIVE away their hard earned money. First off they don't work hard and secondly I WANT them to make money. I just don't want to starve to death so THEY can be richer.

 

If you have ten men in a life boat and one is rich and he is a part owner of the shipping line. What do you think is going to happen if he claims ALL of the supplies by right of ownership and proceeds to gorge himself on the lifeboat rations? We ARE on a life boat. It is called the USA. That fat sucker will either share or I will feed him to the fish!!!

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Funny thing is there are plenty of good rich people out there. My boss bought a company with 50 employees (making minimum wage) 12 years ago and today and today there are around 140 with even the janitors making well above local average. He gives a lot of money to charities, local community organizations and over the years he's written many a large check to employees to cover family emergencies and such. Virtually everyone tat works for him expresses their wonder at what he does for zero personal gain other than the self satisfaction of helping others. I know more like him. Many businessmen would give more back if they weren't raped by Gov't regulations, taxes and such.

 

Unions are another issue. I won't get into a long pissing match over unions but the day they served a purpose (for the most part) is long over.

 

Bosses said business as example. Some union thugs tried to roll in and get their mitts on the purse strings a few years ago. If he had laid down and let them take over the actual income to his employees (take home) would have dropped around 12%, his operating expenses would have gone up by at least 20% and who would have gotten that difference? Union thugs. He and I had a very lengthy discussion over this with his accountants and lawyers present. Their suggestion? Sell out, go live on the beach pocketing millions and tell everyone to %^ themselves. He didn't because he refused to leave his loyal crew hanging in the breeze. He fought and won. His employees are among the highest paid in the area, if not THE highest in that industry. Bennies out the kazoo too, that is until O-care comes in.

 

Get Gov't out of the way, lower taxation against corporate income, drop a lot of the stifling regs (the ridiculous, ludicrous and unobtainable ones) and see jobs come pouring back in. Keep going the way we are presently and EVERYONE loses.

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Danm whether you can spell or not you see things clearly and put that to words well...Damn fine post.

 

Snake, if you leave who's gonna "pop the whip"....damn libs will over run us without your scatter gun tongue.

 

I'd say more of a carpet bombing.

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They move the jobs and factories out because it will make for bigger company profits Sean. In other countries you have people living in almost dirt floor hand to mouth poverty and they are thrilled to work for a wage that we couldn't even consider if we wanted too. They move because in a lot of those countries you can set a 5 gallon plastic bucket in the corner and call it "bathroom facilities." They can dump their raw sewage into the rivers and ocean and they don't CARE if every worker there gets cancer somewhere down the road. Safety factors mean only plausible deniability for the big shots if something just awful happens.

 

So, is THAT the way YOU want to live? All we have to do is work for about 5000 a YEAR, accept injury, illness and no benefits without complaint and we can all go to work! I saw something the other day on Ebey. They warned Canadian citizens that if they bought this from them that the import fee to get it into Canada was about as much as the cost because it is made in China and Canada isn't going for it. They prefer having jobs at home to cheap China made crap. .

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I have no problem with a rich man starting a company and making more money than God. If he pays a fair wage, people will gladly work for him. I have a problem with government regulations ruining his ability to make money and pay that fair wage. I have a problem with outside entities (ie- unions) coming onto his property and telling the workers that the union will give them rights they don't have. Unions ruined the relationship between employee and employer. Until then, workers could go to the boss and point out how good a job they do and ask for a raise. Now, unions protect slugs and hinder the ones who are able to achieve, thus increasing cost to both the worker and the company AND lowering productivity.

I also have a problem with over burdensome corporate taxes. Corperations do NOT pay taxes. The cost is rolled into the cost of the product and customers pay the taxes when they buy the product. The U.S. now has the highest corperate taxes of ANY nation in the world. If the cost of business is too much here, and the company can make the product cheaper overseas, then they must or they won't be around long to make the product, much less make the owner rich. And I never got a job from a poor man.

And again, wealth is not a fixed thing. It is created and when it is created it does not take away from the less wealthy. There are good points to what you're saying, but they way to achieve them is not to punish the wealthy into giving up their wealth. What you are suggesting would lead to total breakdown. If a person is only allowed to make a set amount of money then the government takes the rest, what is the incentive to earn more than that? Sweden has been dealing with almost the same thing for years now. It's easier to not work and get 17,000 Kronors than to earn 34-40,000 Kronors and be taxed until you have 17,000 left.

The answer is to MAKE the government do the 18 enumerated things it is supposed to do, let the states or the people do the things not covered by the Constitution, and get the government OUT of the way. Shut down the alphabet agencies that do nothing except make regulations and suck up money. Free the American person and the American economy to grow, expand and prosper. Government can not empower the people or make all people wealthy. By it's very existence it can only take power and wealth away from the people.

 

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."

-Thomas Paine

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Danm, Why do you think companies move production overseas? What makes them do that instead of staying here?

 

Whoosh!!!!!!!! That was that sucking sound of all the jobs going over seas that Ross Perot amazingly said would happen if NAFTA was signed. Didn't Clinton do that? I've not been able to stomach him since. Wonder who pulled that string?

 

Dan you're so right! Tariffs import taxes whatever one chooses to call it, is no more. Go out of the country and build it, pay some schmoe $7 a week and send it back to the states with no import tax.

Edited by desert rat

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NAFTA was George the First’s deal. George the Second was all about 100% employment for India and China.

 

Without Unions there isn’t a company out there that would pay a penny more than minimum wage to ANY worker and benefits would be only what the Federal government mandated. Mostly you would have the right to work 60 hours a week until you died for a bare bones living. That is what capitalism is all about isn't it? Get ALL you can and screw everybody else!!! Why shouldn’t the workers get a little bit of what THEIR labors produced? Why should a Union be any different than a Company? The problem is that in the middle caught between these two greedy monsters are the working folks that just want to make a living.

 

The Government helps all they can…They tax the hell out of the worker so no matter how hard he works he never seems to get ahead. They tax the companies and force them to make unwanted products and waste a fortune trying to meet ever growing government regulations most of which are meaningless to anyone but the Government men. They let other countries bring in their products in that were made by basically slave labor without taxing it…And THEN they provide a better standard of living for the shiftless and lazy than the hard working workers can afford.

 

Hoss, maybe you could be satisfied making 10 thousand a year and not having insurance or benefits of any kind so the big boys can become trillionaires instead of just billionaires but I’m just not much for boot licking. Screw them, they can either share or I’ll come find them sooner or later. I’m not going to watch my kids starve while they eat like kings. If my kid has to die because the companies they own won’t help me buy insurance then when the time comes they will get to watch their kids die in the revolution.

 

Hoss, poverty is no joking matter. When you push enough working class people into it they will turn on you and it gets UGLY. What is saddest is that the good working rich that made their fortunes off hard work will be the ones that pay the piper. The mega-rich will move out and close shop just like that always do if they can. I think they are working hard right now preparing to do just that too. They want their factories out of the country so when they collapse our economy they won’t be hurt. "Let them eat cake!" has never worked very well. It got the originator of that sayings head cut off and pretty much the same has happened to every other who took that attitude.

 

The millionaires that own the small companies will look up one day and the big companies that they supported are GONE and the consumers they used to sell to are now out of work and BROKE. You say that you never had a job that a poor man provided. HORSEPUCKY!! When Mr. Ford’s company builds a car, who do you think BUYS it?? Some poor sucker like me. Without people like ME to buy the stuff your company makes you will be broker than ME and the real rich will laugh at you! ALL jobs are the result of working people. We make it and then WE buy it. Take us out of the picture and it all there is left is just paper and doesn’t exist.

 

I think Hoss that you and I just see things from opposite ends of the field. I’ve spent most of my life working as a craftsman in one blue collar field or another. I’m a machinist, a roofer, a framing carpenter, an electrician, a licensed HVAC Tech, and right now an appliance repairman. When I was a kid my Dad was always telling me “The early bird catches the worm.” He was a white collar person. I worked nights for a lot of my life and to tell you the truth when he said “The early bird catches the worm”, I usually thought that it just went to prove that the worm should have slept in. I think that like my Dad you are more of the bird. I’m more like the worm…and wouldn’t have it any other way.

Edited by Danm

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Well I must say this thread is an amazing example of people with differing opinions having a civil conversation, no personal attacks, name calling, etc. in that spirit here I go.....the way I see it the goverment has spend the last few decades fattening the rich for slaughter, thru several means TIF, NAFTA, tax loopholes, the list goes on and on! Now they wish to tax them and hold them up as villains to the American people to incite a class war so they can swoop in and level the playing field in the name of "social justice" Danm I don't think we can blame many of the "fat cats" for taking advantage of the gravy that was poured out for them.

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DonDon you have an excellent point. It is called divide and conquer and you are right in the roots. The only question that I have for you is WHO is pulling the strings behind the government? I hypothesize that it is the same super powerful people that I was talking about.

 

The government has always played this game. Let's face it the government is behind most of the internal strife in America. The Racial thing would have been a simple thing if the Government hadn't suddenly decided that the way to end discrimination was to discriminate against others to the benefit of the minorities. Think about it. We were actually beginning to come together when Big Brother jumped in and stirred things into blaze again.

 

Martin Luther King had about as many white followers as black. There were still places where bigotry ruled but it was dying. Now the tension between the races is probably as bad as it has ever been and you can thank Uncle Sam for that. Once I saw through the crud I realized that I couldn’t actually name a single time that a black person had ever done to me because they were black. Most of my resentments were based on unfair treatment at the hands of the government.

 

Other groups have managed to come and become part of the American family; the reason is they did it without Big Brother's "help". One side of my family is made up of a bunch of Micks, McClure, McGee and McClellon... They were treated pretty much as third class citizens when they first came here and then slowly were accepted ...but you wouldn't want your sister marrying one. Now there is little thought given to it. The same is happening with the Hispanic population thanks to Big Brother's help now. Divide and conquer!

 

You are absolutely correct about people soaking up gravy if offered freely. The white people did the same when the rules were in their favor and that was wrong as well. Two wrongs don't make a right though. Welfare is a form of slavery. Once you get on it you are TRAPPED. If you make any real effort to get off…like getting a job they are going to toss you out in the street and take away all their support. If they don’t do that then they take away money in sums greater than you are making so you end up worse than ever. I’ve actually almost been there!!!

 

In the early 80s unemployment where I live was in the 30% and up area! Every place that I had ever worked but one went out of business and there WERE no jobs. We were suffering and lived near some projects. I got tired of seeing my kid looking like a ragamuffin and us eating hand to mouth while those that wouldn’t work lived the good life. Hey, they drove new cars and fed their dogs ground chuck paid for with food stamps. I SAW that.

 

I applied and basically they told me that in order to get any help at all I would have to sell my car, sell my tools that I made a living with and lose my house…or lie like a rug and hope I didn’t get caught and believe me if you were white and got on welfare they LOOKED at you often.

 

We lived in a house without heat/AC or hot water other then what the pilot light provided for almost a year while I did everything from building a house, leveling and stabilizing a slab and roofing a few houses and painting a school all for just basic food money. We lived, after the bills, on 18 dollars a week for food, gas, medicine, cigarettes, and entertainment on unemployment and what ever cash I could drag in as a laborer.

 

During this time one of the Chemical plants put an ad in the paper looking for someone with my sort of experience and skills so I hustled down there…They wouldn’t even let me put in an application…I was white and the job was only open to minorities! I was pissed but went home and told my neighbor about the job. He was black. He applied and got it!! He was black but NOT an American citizen! I had a lot of resentments for a long time until I understood that it was my Government doing this stuff to me and not the minorities. Jeff was a good man and I was glad he got the job but resented the hell out of the fact that because I was white AND an American I was a second class citizen in my own country. I STILL resent it. This sort of crap is still going on. If you are a Nigerian you are like made of gold as far as getting a government job or advancement around here.

 

Hoss I like your stuff and you are right we would have a great time sitting by the fire and working out the worlds problems. For now though I think that we have about beat this dead horse to life and then back to death. I leave to you the last word…

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Brother, the only thing I can offer as last word is this...

 

I enjoyed the hell out of our conversation!

Helped me put into words and understand my own beliefs. Now I know a little better where I stand and why.

If you ever get to Mobile, let me know and I'll spring for lunch if you'll have another talk like that with me!

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I have clients who are super rich and mind boggling wealthy. Thankfully all are ethical moral people, unlike the progressive mantra currently being spouted to demonize the producers so that the non-performers in society can be spoon fed the bilge porridge of socialist-marxism. I see daily the idiots that fully expect handouts and charity be given to them, as self professed deserving people. In reality, they are selfish twits that couldn't produce flatulence without instructions, because their heads are to tightly inserted in their own rectums philosophically and morally.

Let us be careful WHO and WHY we demonize lest the progressives decide to concentrate their efforts on we who want to be prepared and take care of our own. Such a philosophy is counter-intuitive to Progressive/Marxists as WE are the real enemy si nce we are not relying on "the state" for our own sustenance and income. That is precisely what separates US from those who bastardize the freedoms and our inalienable rights granted us by God and not a mindless bloated infected bureaucracy.

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