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Capt Bart

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I find it "interesting" that people actually believe that ancient peoples who believed in, and practiced human sacrifice, could

accurately predict when the world will "end". As a practicing Christian, I believe that God created the world, and have a tough time rationalizing any kind of adult belief in the Mayan Doomsday predictions/prophesies. What I find personally astounding is that seemingly rationale people give that "fashionable fiction" of the world ending on December 21,2012.

Seems a huge waste if time and emotion for those who are seriously preparing for emergencies.

For those who profess to believe in God, to assume that the Mayans somehow got it right over God, have missed the point

Completely in the Judeo-Christian United States.

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On a lighter note, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only "rocket scientist" participating in this forum. Thank-you Capt Bart for your insight, facts and opinions. Which reminds me that the reason there are no rocket scientists in the hottest parts of hell is because the existence of a 'hottest part' implies a temperature difference, and any marginally competent rocket scientist would immediately use this to run a heat engine and make some other part of hell comfortably cool.

 

But I ramble. Fairwinds

 

I LIKE that! Thank you for sharing it, Sir. I have a friend who is into geo-thermal energy production; I'll share it with him if you do not object.

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I find it "interesting" that people actually believe that ancient peoples who believed in, and practiced human sacrifice, could

accurately predict when the world will "end". As a practicing Christian, I believe that God created the world, and have a tough time rationalizing any kind of adult belief in the Mayan Doomsday predictions/prophesies. What I find personally astounding is that seemingly rationale people give that "fashionable fiction" of the world ending on December 21,2012.

Seems a huge waste if time and emotion for those who are seriously preparing for emergencies.

For those who profess to believe in God, to assume that the Mayans somehow got it right over God, have missed the point

Completely in the Judeo-Christian United States.

 

What I find incredible is the same folks who think the pyramids PROVE the existence of "ancient astronauts" because our human ancestors could not POSSIBLY have been sufficiently skilled enough to build things that we couldn't duplicate easily with modern machinery BELIEVE that the ancient Mayans understood the universe so much better than we do that they KNOW the day it will all end. ANY wheel within a wheel design MUST come around to its starting point eventually. That day for the Mayan calender is 21 Dec 2012, IF, AND ONLY IF, the assumed start date for the calender is correct. It makes sense to me that an ancient culture would start on the Winter solstice since that is when the days start getting longer. You could make a case for either equinox and a weaker (in my not so humble opinion) for the summer solstice but since these were priest astronomers Winter was a good bet. If that is the case then the whole thing MUST end on 21 December of some year and start over. The pseudo magic that is attendant to these things drives me nuts because you can not explore it; it's magic, you see. What worries me about 21 Dec 2012 is what is going to start around August this year. Stay out of crowds and malls - people will go nuts. Remember Y2K.

Edited by Capt Bart

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People are already going nuts in my neck of the woods-suburbs! Lots and lots of 'OH MY!" and the attendant hand-wringing. If all of a sudden "ancient astronauts" show up, so be it. My guess is that these apparitions will actually be humans

masquerading as ancient aliens and denabd some sort of financial "tribute" to not open up the ancient tombs of the

Pharohs to allow the curse of the mummy to run amok across Earth unchecked!

Truly mind-boggling that the gaming and media addicted will come upnwith all kinds of prognostications and/or"prophecies"of alleging all sorts of doom and gloom.

I well remember the knuckle.heads in San DiegoCounty that all put on their inter-galactic uniforms and committed suicide in preparation for transportaion to the "mother ship" prior to Y2K...

I do think that the kooks will polarize themselves into rather visible identifiable "stay away" types so that normal preppers

can prepare and thrive instead of merely of merely surviving. Can't make this stuff up!

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Malcolm and MikeE,

The worry for me is that our 'betters' in the political elite will use the kooks to attempt to control all the preppers. We're all kooks you see, and in the interest of safety they must establish the iron rule that allows them to keep the sheeple safe.

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Capt Bart: The Mayans may actually have been using magic. The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. Yesterday's magic (e.g. Mayan pseudo magic) quite often becomes today's science. I've always encouraged my kids to believe in magic because disbelieving in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.

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Capt Bart: The Mayans may actually have been using magic. The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. Yesterday's magic (e.g. Mayan pseudo magic) quite often becomes today's science. I've always encouraged my kids to believe in magic because disbelieving in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.

 

If by magical you mean new and fascinatingly misunderstood things, I completely agree. Clark's (as in Sir Arthur Clarke) 3rd law (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws ) states that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Absolutely true. One of the things that always surprises me is the fact that people are amazed when a light doesn't go on when the switch is thrown. If you were aware of the universe, you'd be amazed every time it DOES come on. I liked the Babylon 5 concept of the "Techno Mage" who uses advanced science to appear to do magic. I've spend the last week talking to folks on 4 continents over a dozen countries and 30 or so states in both hemispheres. The ether existed to give EM waves something to 'wave' or travel through because nothing could travel through a vacuum (see Clarke's first law).

If you are referring to the modern, pseudo pagan demon worship, I'm skeptical to totally not interested. I suspect that you mean the first, like most folks. The fact that some people seem to have a level of precognition seems to me to be fairly obvious unless you have a pathological belief in coincidences on a global scale. That other peoples of other times had different views of what was reality is a certainty. Only the hubris of modern man lets us assume the ancients were ignorant.

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wow, just read all the posts, how do we go from best places to live too talkin about magic and science and stuff. thats just way off subject.....

 

well capt. rob, loved your post, when we started looking for a retreat we had a very similar list

of criteria, (but without all the math). we look at a lot of properties and our list was constantly being revised.

our cabin is on the top edge of a hill, you can not see it from the road, even at night. lots of firewood,

2 fresh springs and a trout creek at the bottom. we have an abundance of wildlife, a great view and a little room to roam. the plus is 1 hour driveway to driveway.

 

my advice to others:

like us it may be a 1 time purchase, do not settle for anything you do not want just to have something. take your time, the right place will come along at the right time and you will know it in your heart.

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After reading threw all this I got to some post that said something about government controlling preppers. And a weird thought popped into my head. If threw some government voodoo magic they managed to relocate everyone who identifies them self as a prepper/survivalist to a few counties or a state and said "your on your own" would that be a nice place to live. This is completely ignoring the fact that trying to do this would start a small war. The thing is I'm not sure it would be that great. There's a lot of younger preppers out there how expect it to be like fallout and see themselves emerging a the leader of their group, there's a lot older preppers that build a fully stocked armory before even considering what they will wipe there butt with and then there's those few odd ball cases you see on the new when the police try to serve a guy with a notice of unpaid traffic tickets and he flees into the woods and they start finding caches of food and munitions as they follow him. Now a lot of the preppers out there are very reasonable and very practical about preparedness but I'm afraid it would be large enough % of people at extremes to guide things in an unhealthy direction.

 

Sorry if this is off topic but we were talking about magicians fighting scientist fighting Mayans.

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wow, just read all the posts, how do we go from best places to live too talkin about magic and science and stuff. thats just way off subject.....

 

well capt. rob, loved your post, when we started looking for a retreat we had a very similar list

of criteria, (but without all the math). we look at a lot of properties and our list was constantly being revised.

our cabin is on the top edge of a hill, you can not see it from the road, even at night. lots of firewood,

2 fresh springs and a trout creek at the bottom. we have an abundance of wildlife, a great view and a little room to roam. the plus is 1 hour driveway to driveway.

 

my advice to others:

like us it may be a 1 time purchase, do not settle for anything you do not want just to have something. take your time, the right place will come along at the right time and you will know it in your heart.

 

The moderator tends to let these things drift as long as they don't go into totally inappropriate areas. If the thread gets to the point of beginning to sound like a conspiracy, or vulgar/crude beyond the moderator's tolerance, or jeopardizes someone's security clearance, then remedial action is taken. Usually just a back on topic reminder or a we have a general audience reminder. Occasionally, if the new direction seems to be taking off the moderator will move the 'drifting' posts over to a new, appropriate thread. The moderator is really a pretty decent guy who tries to not interfere too much with the way the group wants to take the thread even if he doesn't agree with the expressed opinions. I have a very high opinion of the moderator but then I guess that's natural since I am the moderator!B) Does not make my opinions any better or worse, but it does make me responsible for inappropriate content.

 

As to your post, sounds like you have a decent place. Your advice is spot on: Better to not have a place today than to have the wrong place that you sink all your efforts and money into and it is still inadequate. A tip from an earlier age: avoid hunting and fishing very close to your cabin. The idea is that if the animals feel safe close in, they'll be there when you have to hunt close because of weather or situation. If all the deer move a mile away because of hunting pressure then you have a mile walk, in winter snow perhaps, to get meat and then a mile walk to bring it back. If there is no pressure before TSHTF, you may be able to take game from your back door.

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After reading threw all this I got to some post that said something about government controlling preppers. And a weird thought popped into my head. If threw some government voodoo magic they managed to relocate everyone who identifies them self as a prepper/survivalist to a few counties or a state and said "your on your own" would that be a nice place to live. This is completely ignoring the fact that trying to do this would start a small war. The thing is I'm not sure it would be that great. There's a lot of younger preppers out there how expect it to be like fallout and see themselves emerging a the leader of their group, there's a lot older preppers that build a fully stocked armory before even considering what they will wipe there butt with and then there's those few odd ball cases you see on the new when the police try to serve a guy with a notice of unpaid traffic tickets and he flees into the woods and they start finding caches of food and munitions as they follow him. Now a lot of the preppers out there are very reasonable and very practical about preparedness but I'm afraid it would be large enough % of people at extremes to guide things in an unhealthy direction.

 

Sorry if this is off topic but we were talking about magicians fighting scientist fighting Mayans.

 

Autonomous,

Sounds like you need to read http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/shortstories/coventry.html - there is a plot spoiler there so if you're going to get the book "Coventry" by Heinlein then pay attention to the "Spoiler" warning. Story is about a society that exiles it's undesirables into a walled off area called Coventry. Interesting story of what develops there. They do form their own government, by the way. Putting all the preppers into a Coventry state would be an interesting experiment but one that could be dangerous for the government that does so.

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I will take the blame for letting/fomenting the drift in topic here.However, after soending six years in actual winter snow, I'm wanting ti find a more dwsirous place to live....I think. We have a good support network here, and we are out of the crush of humanity from my native state of California-so that is now a good thing. I do miss most of the state's climate and amenities, but nit the political crap or the naivete of the sheeple that continue believing that the state's budget debacle can ever be turned around. Glad I was able to at least my share of the contribution to CALPERS out before it collapses under it,s own weight. So apologies if ajyone was offending by my encouraging it to morph into Mayan-Fighting-Magic Sorcerers-fighting- Ancient -Astronauts.

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I will take the blame for letting/fomenting the drift in topic here.However, after soending six years in actual winter snow, I'm wanting ti find a more dwsirous place to live....I think. We have a good support network here, and we are out of the crush of humanity from my native state of California-so that is now a good thing. I do miss most of the state's climate and amenities, but nit the political crap or the naivete of the sheeple that continue believing that the state's budget debacle can ever be turned around. Glad I was able to at least my share of the contribution to CALPERS out before it collapses under it,s own weight. So apologies if ajyone was offending by my encouraging it to morph into Mayan-Fighting-Magic Sorcerers-fighting- Ancient -Astronauts.

Malcolm,

no harm, no foul. As I said, letting a thread go where it wants is a good thing. It is amazing what develops in some and we have started several very popular threads that way. No blame attached or implied. I understand the concern with snow. I spend several winters in Germany back in the day and waist deep in snow is no place I want to be. That said, IF I could hunker down in October and come out in April it wouldn't be bad. Bears have it right! Hibernation is the only way to face a cold winter. On the other hand, if you have a decent enough growing season and the right preps, snow country can be mighty attractive, especially if you have a support base there. I'm a desert rat by heart but I could see me in Big Sky Country.

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Not that I want people relocating here and boosting our population, but to get back to the original question, I happen to think that those of us living in the Pacific Northwest and parts of northern California have a real chance of having an easier time of it should TEOTWAWKI occur. Here's why:

 

* Low population density except along the I-5 corridor

 

* Literally millions of acres of unclaimed land owned by federal government, plus land owned but not occupied by logging companies that will already have clearings surrounded by woods

 

* Abundance of natural resources, especially timber, game, fish, water

 

* Fairly mild climate (assuming SAD doesn't kill your will to live) - not as hot/humid in summer, not as cold in winter as other places in the US

 

* "Easy" farming due to good soil, water for irrigation (there are lots of established local farms both big and small already)

 

* Abundance of local talent (in my area, they are aged hippies who have evolved from their days in communes) who will happily teach you about subsistence farming, off-the-grid living, holistic/herbal medicines, etc.

 

* Not as attractive a target for nuclear strikes or terror attacks as other parts of the country, fairly low military and local law enforcement presence

 

Granted, there are drawbacks. The rainy season truly is oppressive (read Lewis & Clark's journals for their description of wintering on the coast). Locals are admittedly hostile to outsiders/non-natives as a general rule, although fairly polite on the surface. The I-5 corridor is a serious concern in terms of "mutant zombie biker gangs," looters, pillagers, or just being stuck in the path of a stream of needy humanity. There are big predators (mostly cougars and bears to worry about, and wolves are making a comeback). It's a fault zone for earthquakes and the Cascades are an ACTIVE volcanic mountain range (Mt. St. Helens ring any bells?).

 

Plus Twilight was filmed in Oregon and Washington, so you're bound to have vampire groupies flitting around somewhere, making the apocalypse lame for everyone else.

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Not that I want people relocating here and boosting our population, but to get back to the original question, I happen to think that those of us living in the Pacific Northwest and parts of northern California have a real chance of having an easier time of it should TEOTWAWKI occur. Here's why:

 

* Low population density except along the I-5 corridor

 

* Literally millions of acres of unclaimed land owned by federal government, plus land owned but not occupied by logging companies that will already have clearings surrounded by woods

 

* Abundance of natural resources, especially timber, game, fish, water

 

* Fairly mild climate (assuming SAD doesn't kill your will to live) - not as hot/humid in summer, not as cold in winter as other places in the US

 

* "Easy" farming due to good soil, water for irrigation (there are lots of established local farms both big and small already)

 

* Abundance of local talent (in my area, they are aged hippies who have evolved from their days in communes) who will happily teach you about subsistence farming, off-the-grid living, holistic/herbal medicines, etc.

 

* Not as attractive a target for nuclear strikes or terror attacks as other parts of the country, fairly low military and local law enforcement presence

 

Granted, there are drawbacks. The rainy season truly is oppressive (read Lewis & Clark's journals for their description of wintering on the coast). Locals are admittedly hostile to outsiders/non-natives as a general rule, although fairly polite on the surface. The I-5 corridor is a serious concern in terms of "mutant zombie biker gangs," looters, pillagers, or just being stuck in the path of a stream of needy humanity. There are big predators (mostly cougars and bears to worry about, and wolves are making a comeback). It's a fault zone for earthquakes and the Cascades are an ACTIVE volcanic mountain range (Mt. St. Helens ring any bells?).

 

Plus Twilight was filmed in Oregon and Washington, so you're bound to have vampire groupies flitting around somewhere, making the apocalypse lame for everyone else.

 

So, you're saying stock up on Hornady's Zombie Ammo? I think it works for vampires as well. :confused:

 

Thank you for the post. I had forgotten the effect SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002499/ ) could have in normal times. Coupled to a TEOTWAWKI event and it could be fatal.

 

Sounds like a good location but I have a caveat for those thinking of the Pacific Northwest. Spend some time with your geology. The Cascadia fault WILL unzip and there will be quakes and tsunamis. Make sure you are away from potential lahars ( http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/hazards/primer/lahar.html ). My opinion, and it is just an educated guess (OK, SWAG - Scientific Wild A**Guess - see http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/Scientific+Wild+Ass+Guess ) but I think geological disaster may well be the greatest threat to the area. Making sure your preps are not wiped out by a mud flow rates high on selecting a BOL in the area. Just my not so humble opinion.

 

The apex predators are the other concern of course. You're in big bore handgun country when it comes to selecting calibers you carry on a daily basis. We're looking at a trip to the big sky country this year and I'm shopping for a .454 Casull just because getting eaten by a Grizzly could ruin the rest of the trip. That is beautiful country out there. If I'm not too nosy (if I am, just say so and I'll but out) are you along the coast or more on the lee side of the mountains?

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Capt Bart, not surprisingly, I think you're spot-on when you say that geological disasters are much more likely in this area than in others. This is definitely a region where you'd be smart to have buried *and unburied* caches in multiple locations around your BOL, just in case there's a major shift in topography due to an earthquake, flood, or whatever.

 

And I forgot to mention wildfires, too - chronically mismanaged forests (due to the spotted owl "debate" of the mid-1980s and some fairly short-sighted public policy) has led to a lot of deadfall and areas of forests that are one lightning strike (or inattentive traveler heading to their own BOL) away from going up. This could be great if you're scavenging for fuel and building materials while you're getting set up in your BOL, but it could lead to huge danger if you aren't rigorous in your selection and maintenance of your property, where supplies/housing are set up, anything that throws sparks or flames, etc.

 

You're absolutely right about needing to carefully consider your firearms for being out in the woods. It's not unheard of to see cougars on the outskirts of towns of 100,000 or more, and if it's just you and a big cat out in the woods, you may not even know they are there until they are on you (even better, they attack from behind and are pretty much silent). In this case, dogs could also be considered an important survival tool. Grizzlies are worrisome in some areas of Montana, but I lived in rural MT for a couple of years and only ever saw black bear (and moose, elk, foxes, etc.). The bow hunters I knew DID encounter at least one grizzly - who decided to claim their hard-earned elk for his dinner. A great book on recent attacks and lessons to learn is called "Mark of the Grizzly" by Scott McMillion, not so much a handbook for surviving them as just learning more about why they happen/don't happen.

 

I'm located in the middle of the Willamette Valley right now (between the coastal range and Cascades, and over 100 miles south of Portland), but think my BOL will likely be southeast of here, somewhere in the western foothills of the Cascades. It's familiar, fairly benign wilderness IMO, with a fair amount of food available for hunting and foraging, let alone growing and cultivating.

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my $0.02 worth opinion is that if you can already be at your retreat, that would be so much better, unfortunately financial considerations mean this is not easy for the majority of us, anyway back to my opinion: don't panic, i believe that, especially with all the recent hype, what will happen is panic, another outbreak of H1N1 or Asian Avian Influenza will only kill 100,000 people, the other 10,000,000 deaths will be attributed to the disease, but looters (of pharmacies and doctor's rooms) as weel as the defenders of such place will be more likely to die of gunshot wounds, being trampled underfoot, than of dying of the disease itself. since much of the western world has become so accustommed to being mollie-coddled by their governments, the people (vast majority - not the preppers) will be incapable of handling the trauma of an earthquake or another katrina, maybe this time further north towards washington, new york, even boston; panic would ensue. again more circumstantial, rather than event-deaths.follywood always shows the panic, and then the hero says something, people quieten down, and in the gospel according to follywood, everyone survives; but that is wishful thinking. i don't have the answers so this is all i have to say

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I live in northeast FLA. Not my ideal location, but anyway. I'm near 2 Naval bases, an ocean and a river. My only saving grace is that I'm close to the Georgia border, which puts me in southern GA with one tank of gas and northern GA with two. If I get hit by a hurricane, then GA is no problem. Same with EMP or solar flare. Now for more serious scenarios, I've figured that I would want to get as far away from the eastern seaboard as I could. My reasoning is that the population is very high, it's close to the Atlantic and (from what I was able to research online) it has a high concentration of nuclear facilities. I think this reasoning is correct, but am not sure. That would mean a lot of travel which may not be possible. But I guess I would have no choice. My question would be: 1. Is it possible to travel a long distance to a BOL? Also I never really see any postings on waterways for travel. This leads me to my other question: 2. Is it wise to travel my waterway (river) to a BOL if possible? I'm new to the site and am still learning, so please don't get too technical.

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Hoplite, there are a few threads with comments using boats. The biggest disadvantage is not being able to hide well on the river. If near the Black, I've canoed and kayaked it before and woould consider doing so again. The rivers were the "interstates" long before the internal combustion engine was invented. I have canoes and they figure into my plans. For stability, maybe adding an outrigger of sorts will help and from what I remember, the Black was plenty wide for a canoe with this arrangement.

As for distance, that would go to the type of event and timing of your move. I can remember seeing traffic backed up for MILES with people fleeing a hurricane. The bad thing about FL is that you pretty well only have 1 direction to go, North, along with everyone else.

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Hoplite, there are a few threads with comments using boats. The biggest disadvantage is not being able to hide well on the river. If near the Black, I've canoed and kayaked it before and woould consider doing so again. The rivers were the "interstates" long before the internal combustion engine was invented. I have canoes and they figure into my plans. For stability, maybe adding an outrigger of sorts will help and from what I remember, the Black was plenty wide for a canoe with this arrangement.

As for distance, that would go to the type of event and timing of your move. I can remember seeing traffic backed up for MILES with people fleeing a hurricane. The bad thing about FL is that you pretty well only have 1 direction to go, North, along with everyone else.

I completly agree sir. I can't imagine having only one way to flee out of state because taking a boat out during that event wouldn't be a very good option. Where I live I have about a 1,000 miles in every direction that I can flee to.

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Hoplite,

your ability to GOOD from your location is heavily predicated on your timing. From NE Florida, if you're bugging out West or North West (probably your only choices) you are going to have other major cities with which to contend. If you don't GOOD until after TSHTF, you probably won't get far. The normal 4 to 5 hour drive from Houston to Dallas took over 20 hours during the Rita Evacuation. I was on I-20, due north of NOLA when Katrina was approaching land (evening before land fall). It was a royal mess. Something like 7 or 8 hours to go four miles and we were well inland for crying out loud.

 

In your location, my guess would be that if you're not gone at least 3 (maybe 2 if you're lucky but luck is a lousy Plan A) days before TSHTF, you are going to have to ride it out for at least several days. If it is a widespread SHTF then every major town on your route is a trap. A long distance bug out is not really possible unless you have a plane. Then it's still a maybe.

 

If you must be where you currently are located and you can't get a close BOL, I strongly recommend that you figure out a way to have a 'rabbit hole' close by your location. Some place you can go to hole up for a few days to a week until travel to your BOL becomes possible.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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We live in south-central Texas now, country I'm not really comfortable in/with. My home is in the mountains of western NC and that's where I'd prefer to be. I can't see that happening, though. I'm going to have to see what I can find within a 1-tank driving distance, because I can't see a 20-hour drive (under good conditions) being feasible.

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Oregonchick: Just wondering if you have ever read Dies the Fire, by S.M. Sterling. It was the first book that I ever read that got me thinking about preparing for some type of disaster or TEOTWAWKI. Your part of the country (the Willamet VAlley) is the setting for the books. I think the original trilogy is pretty darn entertaining, and actually has some fairly sound thought behind a lot of the ideas (assuming the original premise could happen).

 

Sorry for hi-jacking, now back to your regularly scheduled thread!

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    • I can imagine food prices going up this Fall or Winter. Corn is used for live stock feed, & us humans consume a lot of corn based products, as well as corn based biofuel. I’ve been keeping a watchful eye on the mid-west of America, which is flooded by water. Where corn  & other crops are normally grown there. Farmers are quite worried about this years growing season. Time to stock up on extra food if you can, if you haven’t already. Stack it high, stack it deep. Store the foods that you normally eat. What ever the  amount of food you’ve stored,  try to double it if possible. Better extra safe, than sorry.