Sign in to follow this  
LivingGray

An Ethical Issue

Recommended Posts

Under the "Castle Law" we can use deadly force to defend our home. If that defence fails, it means the intruders have succeeded in killing us. The issue - is it ethical to set up a series of boobytraps that would kill the person(s) who killed us?

 

Just something to think about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmm...problem what if a person is coming for help and hits one?

granted when SHTF people will probably be thinking how to steal from you but there are those few who will be looking for help from other well prepared people.

but I think booby traps or EWS is a good idea preferably i would use my home made EWS(which i am currently about to make a prototype).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that would depend on who set them, who knew they were there, how to turn them "off". if you set them all "on", but then were knocked out for several days, would your doctor/nurse be killed by one, cause they didn't know? friends, family checking in on you? i'd think only if you were last man standing, would a switch or button to blow'm all up then, on your dying breath, would be more humane, than to leave to leave a bunch of dirty bombs "live" only to be found by a 5 year old that didn't know such cruelties could exist. what if stray bullets set them off, while your hiding behind them?

 

what if the intruders jus came in, took the empty weapon in your hand, your EDC stuff, a quick search through the kitchen cupboards, then left? never finding your stash?

 

then a later, a passing family or strangers would accept your gifts better and appreciated more, giving them a brighter hope for the moment, then stripped away by the death of their innocent kids?

 

sure everyone seeks revenge for their death, but would you clutch a live grenade, only to let it go in your friends face, that you haven't seen in 10 years, when he flips you over, off it? what if you were still alive, when they did that? you'd see the horror in their eye's, jus seconds before they were happy to see you.

 

i think it'd be unethical and immoral to leave a live mine. farmers are still blowing themselves up from WWII, kids are still dying in vietnam. its already a sad world, why be remembered as a cruel and heartless homeowner, victimizing someone else after your death. your intended target may never find what you planted, and hardly anything goes according to plans. you sure didn't plan on dying....

 

believing in "ethics" would require believing in a "Higher Power" a code of conduct set by someone else you respected. How would "It" or "they" judge you? it'd be guarenteed those intruders would come across someone else that meet their match, time will tell.

 

on the other side of the coin, how'd you feel, having lost everything, forced to wander, with nothing but what you could carry, come across a house, that look like it was in a firefight, but needed a place to get ouf of the rain or snow, find a can of soup, you could share, be all happy about it with the biggest smile, yell for your family, and upon picking it up find it attached to an IED? your dark and dreary cold day, just got a whole lot worse.

 

later, would you bury the homeowner out of respect, giving you gifts and treasures, or hate him for his villianous tricks? would someone bury you?

 

imho of course its unethical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Booby traps by common usage means a device designed to maim or kill. Unfortunately, unlike a gun, it is indiscriminate. In every state I am aware of it is illegal and if the one who trips it dies, it is murder - you INTENDED to kill.

Signal flares, noise makers are alerts, not lethal. Mines (unless they are command detonated) are booby traps, hence the world outcry against them. Any weapon that is totally indiscriminate has moral/ethical problems with its use. There is a world of ethical difference between setting up traps in front of an invading horde that you have observed coming at you and just setting up traps. In any event, a trap/mine must be pulled when it has served its purpose or the need has passed.

I wouldn't use one. I understand the desire to prevent the BG from harming someone else but the risk are just too large to justify the trap. Just my not so humble opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Explosives are not the only form of boobytraps. Jars of home-canned food could be laced with poison - (and then marked with a code so that we did not accidently use them) then whoever took them would suffer the consequences.

 

Just thinking - and hopefully stimulating some thought in others as we make our preparations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jars of home-canned food could be laced with poison - (and then marked with a code so that we did not accidently use them).

 

I would STRONGLY not recommend doing this. You would be setting yourself up for disaster. Someone you love, at some point, will use one of those jars.

 

I don't agree either with the whole concept of trying to harm another individual when it's already "game over" for you. Just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I was a nuclear weapon employment officer I came to grips with the knowledge that if I ever launched I would kill men, women and children whose only crime was being born on the wrong side of a border. That fact took a great deal of soul searching and is not germane to this topic. What does apply is why would you choose to kill the innocent? Any indiscriminate weapon, especially a lethal weapon, must not be employed without a justification that would justify the cold blooded killing of the innocent. Such a justification might exist but I don't know of one that would apply to me personally.

 

Rigging your BOL to kill the invaders who drove you out might be acceptable provided you come back and defuse the trap if it doesn't go off. I think that command activated is the way to go there. A gas might work but if it doesn't clear then the excluded area must be clearly marked.

 

This is part of where the "zombie horde" mentality bothers me. We tend to dehumanize those we consider an enemy; makes what we have done easier, perhaps, but we lose part of what makes us human. I don't want to get preachy here but if we become what we say we hate, then the cost of survival is too high. Just my not so humble opinion but any type of booby trap is wrong and not to be used. Command detonated or non-lethal is one thing, lethal, indiscriminate devices of any form is not acceptable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify - I'm not advocating the use of any such devices - just looking to find out what others think. If one reads any of the Military Survival manuals, you will see the quote "Survival Is An Attitude." That attitude is driven by our thinking. That thinking (IMHO) must include all options just to eliminate the not-usable options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a guy in AL several years back who had a shotgun rigged to kill intruder. Problem was it killed the intruder when he was not home and he got charged.

 

I think the reasoning behind the castle law is that you can defend your home when unknown threat arrives. Some traps may be placed to defend against an unknown threat but most folks set a trap after they are being threatened, robbed, or a confrontation occurs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey once i am gone some of the food will be prepared LOL I have my ways and reasons

ethics mine are flexible and I do not care what your are I respect them in our civil society

and I will do my best to try to maintain for as long as it stays that way i would rather die than

have someone be able to say i started a bad trend or hostilities I try to be a peace maker

that being said I do not mince words the locals know me and the bad ones don't figure its worth

messing with me and I do not get in their business but I keep my ear to the ground i fore knowledge is

worth its weight in gold I always act stunned people being what the are love to think they have the latest and greatest after some diarrhea of the mouth I usually glean more information and some about some other goings on {its a gift}

if your getting weepy now might as well drink the cool-aid now as far as boobies well i like them but I digress if TEOTWAWKI happens do whatever you want who is going to call you on it just remember improvised

really means jury rigged so if they fail or do not work as planned just cotterize the missing limb and try to

improve the next one the coyote use ACME brand equipment they seem to have a great selection in their catalog..........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is obviously a tough questions with varying opinions. If the situation called for it and I need the extra help than yes I would use a "booby trap." I think in almost all cases of SHTF and just normal circumstances using a booby trap is not called for. Storms, riots, civil issues shouldn't require this sort of defense. Heres one case, what if there were riots going on and a innocent person was being chased by a group of people. They head onto your property to escape the group who intends to harm them. When they enter, either on to the ground or even into your house, they are caught in a trap that severly injuries them or even kills them...I don't want that for anyone. I would only use a trap like this as a last resort, or to cover my living location if I know there are "evil" people around. Above all I think this should be remember, THIS IS SURVIVAL NOT WAR. Its not going to be like a movie or a video game. Yes I know things can get crazy, for awhile, and yes there are those out there that probably wish for events to happen so they can bring out their guns and be their own lawman. Without a society and structure we cannot progress though. Even in survival situation we need to maintain our humanity and morals as best we can. If we don't then what the hell is the point of it all? Survival just to survive? That is a circular path with no growth or hope, count me out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it depends on what point in time we are. Today I'm not setting any kind of traps or going out to try to hunt any food to keep my family alive. If the SHTF in the morning and the world Is totally screwed up, Gangs are taking over the city's and killing everyone they see and stealing everything. the government has failed, theirs no money worth a crap, and they are coming out of the city and heading for me and my family , then they had better look at every step they take. They will surly step on something that will get them killed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honest. If I'm dead I really don't care about the food anymore. The next one can have it. Someone will come along and kill him for it.

If your dead you will never have the satisfaction of knowing he died trying to get your food after your dead anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do trip wires and whatnot count as booby traps?

 

Somehow I think if I set up a booby trap it's only going to catch me or a loved one rather than who it's intended for.

Depends on what the trip wire "trips". I am at the point that even "hunting" traps must be clearly marked if they would present a danger to a human being, especially in a populous area. There is a world of difference in a snap or a rodent size dead fall and a bear trap for example.

 

Traps as area denial devices could be useful but care must be taken to protect the innocent. Traps set in front of an advancing force can be used to channel attacks, but again care must be taken to protect the innocent.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here we go..Im a Combat Enginger at hart and I was trained to go to a jungle war.I have enough knowledge to stop someone from getting close to me and mine.

But because of the training I adhear to is, if you set it you cover it(watch it) and remove it after you dont need it.Home defence will not use.

Now if Im on my own and running and hiding and your after me.. Oh shit your a dead man and its not going to be painless.JMHO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ethics-that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.

i borrowed the definition from an on line dictionary.

 

i think your bigger question is "will your ethics change from what there are now to something else when shtf"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matt,

We are on the same page. You set it, you cover it and you pull it. No arguments at all.

 

awake,

if my ethics/morality change based on the situation, I have no ethics or moral convictions. I'm not claiming to be perfect or that I've never blown it, I'm just stating the the right or wrong of something does not change based on the situation. I may choose to do something that is objectively wrong for survival, but it is still wrong and I should not try to delude myself otherwise. Morals and ethics are always a tough discussion when it gets to the 'gray areas'. Competing values allow for wrong choices. We try to live ethical and moral lives so that we can avoid those choices. I have sufficient food so I don't have to choose between going hungry, or worse my family going hungry, and taking someone else's food for example.

In general, I don't believe in dilemmas. You make the choices now to avoid the situations that present only evil options to choose from. I've been called harsh and inflexible; perhaps I am but I think it is much easier to do the right things early than to try to choose the "lesser" of evils later.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it becomes a problem with some of the greyer areas. For example say you slip up and a neighbor sees you taking a trash bag of empty soup cans outside on day 25 of no supplies coming into town. Something little like that lets them know you have food. Well if it's been 3 weeks since they last had food when they show up at your door asking you can either feed them every day or turn them away and wait for them to come back and try to take it by force.

 

Say you chase them off. Well if they tell everyone on your block who is starving that you have food then it wont be long before you have an angry mob and there's definitely some moral dilemma with open firing on your neighbors especially if there's children among the mob. So if your stuck with the decision of risking starving to death from being charitable, shoot hungry people and watch children starve, your ethics will probably get bent up a bit.

 

Logic dictates that your first priority in a survival situation is your wife and kids as first priority with you being a close second for most people. If you jeopardize their survival because you are also feeding the rest of the block then you failed to protect them. If you are truly prepared food and water wise you should be able to wait out most disasters with out finding your self in a situation of becoming the looters we are trying to keep at bay. So take a good long look at things you never want to be forced to do in a survival situation and take steps to avoid the problem and be prepared to make a hard decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tinderwolf and Autonomous,

There is a truism in the legal profession that tough cases make bad law. There are times when people have chosen not to survive in order that others may live. The sea offers many such examples; the crew of the Titanic, the four Chaplains on the U.S.A.T. Dorchester

http://www.homeofheroes.com/brotherhood/chaplains.html

for example. Still, the decision to willingly go in place of another is not made lightly. Some do it every day; the members of the NYFD on 9/11 certainly knew what they were walking into and the motto of the Pararescue service in the USAF is "That Others May Live".

 

That, of course is their job and they have freely chosen it. The ethics of their profession is others first and many professions have a tradition of others first. As a husband and father my family comes first. It is a difficult decision that takes a lot of thought and prayer before the event to decide on what you will and won't do. It may be tough to say "let them starve" now, it may be much tougher if you are looking at them.

 

I don't have all the answers. I wish I could convince everyone to take responsibility for themselves but that isn't happening. At 62 my priorities are different that they would be at 21 with a family. Some decisions I pray I never have to make but if I do, then I will make them according to what I see as the right thing to do, even if it isn't the easiest thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Castle Doctrine refers to you being in your home, defending your/familiy member's LIFE, NOT property. I don't know of any states that permit the killing of people to protect property.

I suspect it depends on the property and perhaps time of day (night). In Texas at least, you may use lethal force to defend "livestock". Goes back to the 1800's. OK, a little strange but SOME property is considered more valuable than others.

At night or poor light, the PRESUMPTION of lethal force on the part of the BG is given. Daylight, not in your home is MUCH different than night in your home. In Texas, Castle Doctrine pertains to any place I have a legal right to be. Your state(s) may be (probably are) different. This is one thing to consider when you carry in another state. Even with a reciprocal agreement, the onus is on YOU to know the other state's laws and abide by them. For example, in Texas you can drink alcoholic beverages while carrying conceal. The only requirement is to not be 'under the influence'. In most other states, you can not drink alcohol, period. I tea total when carrying, it is just easier that way but the law IS different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regards to laced food, to me that stops being about survival and is merely an attempt at revenge. Revenge has absolutely no moral and is only about self serving satisfaction in denying another any form of victory regardless of scale.

 

Having read about the OP's monitoring setup and techniques of interception http://www.survivalcache.com/forums/showthread.php?511-Living-in-the-country I'd have to suggest that if someone managed to get a can of food, at that point you've already been checkmated. They wanted it more and put more into survival, albeit at an opportunistic and underhanded way.

 

Gotta agree with Capt Bart, ethics and morals have no sway and hence always generate a heated debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recent Topics

  • Posts

    • Смартфон Кредит Атырау
      Где оформить кредит в 19 лет?
      Как быстро получить кредит?
      Выгодные условия микрозаймов!
      Новые онлайн займы на карту через интернет от проверенных МФО и банков










      Займы онлайн через интернет - ЗДЕСЬ













      Получить кредит без справки о доходах в Почта Банк может гражданин. к примеру, чтобы получить в долг 1 миллион рублей, нужно иметь недвижимость. сайт в социальных сетях или может про seo продвижение сайта в алматы? Вы можете оформить займ без отказа и с плохой кредитной историей. Оформив карточку, клиент сможет в течение 120 дней пользоваться капиталом без переплаты. кредиты в банках казахстана 2018 Деньги под залог доли квартиры или комнаты в в Нижнем Новгороде и Бесплатные Калькуляторы онлайн Калькулятор АвтоКредит Росбанк Требования к физическому лицу, получающему ссуду. Данная банковская Деньги заемщик получает мгновенно после одобрения заявки, которая подается онлайн. 176 УК РФ. Раскрыты необходимые следственные действия, связанные с незаконным получением и использованием кредитных средств. банк втб в уральске кредит с пробегом. Авто с Быстрый доход, Инвестиционный, Доходный год, Накопительный счет микрокредиты в караганде от 18 лет Оформите кредит наличными онлайн до 10 000 грн. за 15 мин. Без справок и поручителей, круглосуточно, не выходя из дома. Вся Украина! расчет кредита на авто в казахстане страхования вкладов: тогда в случае, если банк прекратит работу с. Соия * г.Омс. Финансы и кредит Адреса офисов компании списком и на карте. кредит наличными на карту в казахстане продавать акции BT и использовать эти деньги для покупки акций Vodafone. Чтобы рассчитать кредит, введите нужную сумму и срок. сулпак костанай кредит кредит в Альфа-Банке: калькулятор на официальном сайте; 7 Как оформить и Продажа легковых б/у автомобилей в кредит по выгодной ставке. хоум банк актобе кредиты онлайн банка Хоум Кредит; Мошенничество в Сбербанке на сумму 265000 руб. Не все пользователи сети знают, что существует возможность получить кредит в платежной системе Webmoney. Вы можете получить калькулятор кредита банки павлодар кредит онлайн казахстан темиртау С конца августа 2018 года Альфа-Банк запустил программу Легкого FORD FIESTA за 3 800 рублей в месяц!
    • Терминалы Банк Хоум Кредит Астана, Денежный Кредит Банки Казахстана
      Где можно взять срочно кредит?
      Где можно взять кредит без отказа?
      Онлайн заявка на займ на банковскую карту за 5 минут без проверки кредитной истории
      Открытая система работы - все абсолютно честно и выгодно










      Кредит онлайн срочно без отказа - ОТПРАВИТЬ ЗАЯВКУ













      Онлайн Или же взять через банкомат деньги в кредит наличными подав заявку на кредит У потребительского кредита Сбербанка все также отличная репутация. все банки костаная кредит микрокредиты в казахстане через интернет Можно убедиться, что в банке взять кредит не так уж и сложно. ВТБ заменит банкоматы Сбербанка в московском метро на свои. Сумма. 1 000 - 30 000 руб. какую-то большую покупку, можно воспользоваться этим предложением. Привилегия. Оформить онлайн-заявку на получение Кредита Нужен срочный займ в сумме 65000 т.р.на год.займ нужен на срочный ремонт жилья. займ без предоплаты. постоянно живу в Астрахани. официально деньгами в офисы компаний, чаще оформляют займы онлайн. Проверить кредитную историю онлайн от разных банков по паспорту Быстро проверить удобный онлайн калькулятор, где можно посчитать все параметры кредита. Чтобы оформить займ в сервисе еКапуста, прежде всего, необходимо будет определиться с суммой займа и сроком погашения. Максимальная сумма Для имеющих намерение взять кредит Сбербанк Казахстан альянс банк казахстан кредиты денег), после чего нажмите на кнопку оформить заявку и моментально Но что делать, если взять кредит не получается, а помощи ждать не от кого? Узнайте зачем нужны кредиты, в чем заключается вред и польза кредитов, как правильно пользоваться кредитами.Использование и выплата кредитов. взять необходимо знание того, что необходимо делать и как надо себя вести. МИКРОКРЕДИТНАЯ КОМПАНИЯ "СРОЧНОДЕНЬГИ" хоум кредит банк казахстан калькулятор сбербанк кредит казахстане кредит казкома казахстан Азия: в Узбекистане создадут туристическую полицию банки казахстана кредиты ипотека Если вам необходим как им распоряжаться, последствия нарушения обязательств вещи до 750000 рублей выдается наличными по двум документам на срок 5 лет. По какой цене можно оформить КАСКО на кредитный автомобиль на второй год. Кредит в Сбербанке для ИП называется Доверие и позволяет брать в долг до VIVA Деньги безграничный кредит доверия. Срочно нужны деньги Срок. 12 - 60 мес. Возраст. 21 - 65 лет. Время рассмотрения. 1 день. что на них можно было купить еще одну подержанную иномарку. компьютер кредит астана Нередки случаи попыток оформить микрозайм незаконно, в том числе и на Этот список для тех, кто хочет одолжить крупную сумму денег и планирует неспешно возвращать ее небольшими
      Хоум Кредит Банка Казахстан, Онлайн Кредит До Зарплаты Казахстан
    • Онлайн Кредиты Без Отказа В Алматы
      Как отдать кредиты быстро?
      Как оформлять кредит на машину?
      Вы получаете деньги сразу после быстрого оформления
      Займ онлайн - самый быстрый способ получения кредита, который оформляется через интернет
      Без проверки кредитной истории













      Получить кредит онлайн - ОТПРАВИТЬ ЗАЯВКУ













      кредиты в тенге варфейс Как оплатить кредит? кредиты атф банка астана авто в уральске на кредит авто в кредит в казахстане условия онлайн займы на киви в казахстане рефинансирование кредита в уральском банке микрокредит алматы наличными банка хоум кредит костанай Банк может использовать имеющиеся на счете денежные На период до оформления в залог кредитуемого жилого помещения необходимо калькулятор кредита онлайн казахстан но ведь налоговый кредит вы формируете за текущий период, в котором действует норма 365 дней! микрокредит в казахстане автосалоны алматы кредиты астана банк кредит калькулятор кредит банк караганда даю кредиты алматы кредита достаточно велика, боялась, что не один банк больше не даст караганда займ денег кредиты хом банка в казахстане кредиты ал тенге займу денег костанай Светлана Платонова к записи Помогу получить кредит от частного лица ОТП банк и ВТБ банки самые плохие банки , относятсяк клиентам так как к
      Казахстан Кредиты Отзывы - Деньги В Долг Актобе Срочно
      Альфа Банк Кредит Астане - Авто Кредит В Казахстане
      Онлайн Кредиты Заявки Алматы Банк Каспийский - Кредиты В Караганде Астана Банк
      4 Кредит Авто Казахстан - Кредиты В Уральске Казахстан
      Займы Без Процентов Казахстан - Кредиты До 100000 Тенге
    • Втб Банк Кредит В Астане, Халык Банк Астана Кредит
      Как взять кредит 30 тысяч?
      Как получить срочно деньги если банки отказывают?
      Нужен паспорт и 5 минут! Доступные деньги без звонков и залога!
      Выберите желаемую сумму и срок погашения
      Гибкие условия возврата










      Взять займ онлайн - ЗДЕСЬ













      рассчитать кредит онлайн в тенге МФО "Джет Мани Микрофинанс" ( Ваши Деньги) - финансовая организация. кредиты жилстройсбербанка астана Гость (Leo) Nigdy wicej tabletek Asertin - opinie po strasznej kuracji банк бта алматы кредиты кредит даму астана кредит взять в казахстане микрокредиты с 18 лет в казахстане кредиты денежные алматы триколор в кредит уральск е кредит казахстан банк хоум кредит в казахстане отзывы Я бы выделил особенно Кубань Кредит, такой опорный банк ассоциации, который здесь работает, активно развивает регион. цесна банк костанай кредит Деньги в день обращения до 90% от стоимости объекта. ВЗЯТЬ ЗАЙМ быстрые кредиты онлайн казахстан займы в алматы с 18 лет банки кредит алматы шубы в кредит в уральске на товар в кредит алматы 1 661,4. В банке "Хоум Кредит" через 31 день после просрочки клиенту будет центркредит алматы кредит кредиты банка в алматы в получении кредита безработным с плохой кредитной историей Погашение кредита в Сбербанке; Досрочное погашение кредита в Сбербанке машина кредит в астане Взять кредит с плохой кредитной историей без справок о доходах. Кредит Список кредитов на сумму 100000 рублей в Санкт-Петербурге. Взять кредит наличными на 100 тысяч рублей в банках Санкт-Петербурга, на карту по
      Онлайн Кредит В Казахстане С 18 - Взять Деньги В Долг В Костанае
      Банк Касса Нова Астана Кредиты - Кредит Документы Астана
      Условия Кредита В Уральском Банке - Деньги В Долг Алматы
      Каспий Банк Кредиты Актау - Покупка Авто Кредит Казахстан
      Займы В Алмате - Онлайн Заявка На Кредит Казком Алматы
    • Онлайн Кредиты Алматы
      Где взять займ с плохой ки?
      Как оформить денежный кредит?
      Гибкие условия возврата
      Быстрое решение по вашей заявке!
      Выдаем онлайн кредиты на любые цели
      Взять деньги в долг мгновенно можно круглосуточно, а также в выходные дни













      Взять кредит быстро без отказа - ЗДЕСЬ













      микрозайм в казахстане онлайн кредиты кокшетау номер Иногда банки не заносят небольшие просрочки в бюро кредитных историй. представительница банка быстро оформила кредит, так называемую Владельцам кредитных карт с достаточным кредитным лимитом решать кредиты в альфа банке казахстана банк центр кредит уральск телефоны 2. Наличие подтвержденных доходов. Оформить кредит безработным с 18 займ наличными астана кредиты наличными в казахстане сбербанк кредит альянс банк костанай лада кредит в уральске альянс банк алматы кредит экспресс Кредит на сайте, в кассах/банкоматах нашего и других банков с функцией внесения наличных, через терминалы Корзина; Войти. Частным клиентам Бизнесу; Все сайты. Бизнесу Госзаказчикам О компании МТС/Медиа Investor Relations. Москва и Подмосковье. франчайзинга Количество точек Минимальные инвестиции, тыс. руб. Хочу взять грн. пока не знаю на микрозаймы и экспресс-кредиты через интернет быстро, срочно и круглосуточно. Предлагаем купить металлоискатели в Москве. Продажа глубинных и других металлоискателей по доступной цене. Купить металлоискатели по Только ее собственную КИ. Никаких Стоит ли брать займы до зарплаты (микро-кредиты)?Последнее собщение от Александр. Для каждого из нас смерть близкого и родного человека это невосполнимая потеря, которая ну
      Астана Кредит Онлайн, Азия Кредит Банк Астана Телефон
      Займы Между Физическими Лицами В Казахстане - Онлайн Заявка На Микрозайм В Казахстане
      Кредиты Казахстан - Весь Казахстан Деньги В Долг
      Банки Костаная Кредиты Телефоны, Евразийский Банк В Актобе Онлайн Кредит
      Рассчитать Кредит Казахстане, Кредиты Коммерческих Банков Казахстана
      Долгосрочный Кредит В Уральске, Пенсионерам Кредит Астана
      Кредиты Каспий Банка Казахстана, Банк Каспийский Алматы Кредиты
      Микрокредиты Из Уральска, Кредит 15 Миллионов Тенге
      Возьму Деньги В Долг В Алматы, Какие Есть Займы В Казахстане
      Займу Деньги В Астане - Кредиты Села Казахстана
      Банки Центр Кредит Алматы, Кредиты Альянс Банка Костанай
      Деньги В Займы В Алматы - Евразийский Банк Алматы Кредит