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JohnDoe1999

WROL/SHTF Does Not Equal WAR

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I've been seeing and hearing a lot of talk about combat carbines and some seriously ridiculous firepower. Firstly, I'm not anti assault weapon (yeah, I mean select fire) or anti militia, and that's not the debate I want have with this. I feel that in most situations WROL/SHTF doesn't equal war and therefore doesn't require military weapons capabilities. The only exception I could think of is a community on community conflict. However, for most realistic events, I think that a 3 gun arsenal of: 12 Gauge Shotgun, bolt action Deer rifle, and pistol is sufficient for WROL. Let's imagine three scenarios:

Scenario 1: Organizing a neighborhood/community defense with sufficient man power to have shift based: fixed positions, road blocks, over-watch positions, security patrols, and a quick reaction force. Firstly, no gang or "raiders" will attack a location with that much security. They would assume that this outpost has resources and try to infiltrate a thief. Harassing fire could be used as a diversionary tactic or even revenge attack (depending on what happened to the thief.) In either case, a scoped hunting rifle would provide an effective response. In this scenario 12 gauge shotguns and deer rifles would get the job done! No need for fire and maneuver with Ak47s.

Scenario 2: Getting mugged and attacked for your shoes...

Most street attacks happen at very close range, besides, why would your attackers want you to see them coming from 100yds off? Fernan Ferfal said that the muggers after the Argentina collapse were not obvious. Let's say a sniper targets you? You would probably be dead anyways, but if they missed, you should probably just run away! The longer you shoot at them or advance the more likely you are to be shot! Also, in conditions where open carry of long guns may be too high profile or conspicuous, a pistol is more flexible.

Scenario 3: SHTF Bug out car-jacking. (I don't recommend this option but many arm chair survivalists seem to endorse it) Let's say you drive into a an "L" ambush with crossfires? You're probably already dead, and if you do survive, these operations are generally conducted at under 35 meters so a fighting rifle is unnecessary. Another thought, panicked LEO's or martial law conditions would probably mean that a vehicle with fighting rifles sticking out of it or even just visible in it would be: a. shot to pieces, b. have it's weapons confiscated (think Katrina) and or c. have it's occupants arrested. If you drove through a checkpoint with only a pistol, unless you were thoroughly searched you'd probably be fine. The most likely carjacking event would be sitting in a traffic jam and a desperate family man who has run out gas puts a 9mm to the driver's head. You could sure bring a pistol to his head faster than you could maneuver an AR15. Besides, you still have your colt because it wasn't confiscated at the checkpoint remember? Give me your opinions gentleman and ladies, positive or negative, you won't hurt my feelings. Happy prepping.

Edited by JohnDoe1999

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Understandable. Many people agree that an automatic weapon isn't a must (I bet, I sure do). But owning an automatic is saying "I could kill you 10x over". An automatic may come in handy if 3 people try to mug you in an alley, but then again a trigger finger works wonders too.

 

On one episode of Wildest Police Chases, a police man pulled over a "gangster" but literally he was, he wore a full pimp suit got out of his car and sprayed 32 bullets in what seemed like half a second at the police windshield (and camera), the guy got caught and no one got hurt but DAMN was that intimidating.

 

If a group of 5 people try to take your group of 4 peoples stuff, and you pull out an automatic and fire 30 bullets at them, hitting them or not there going to be scared. 1 bullet is enough to scare an average person but when you get someone who thinks there god's gift to the earth and that they can do anything they want to, 30 bullets tends to drive anyone back. Or in the case of some of you extended mags people, 50 bullets. But for hunting/general survival, I agree, single fire is good enough and cost less for the most part.

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Reference automatic fire - a couple of nights ago in Houston there was a 6 on 4 gang related .... over 50 rounds fired - two in the hospital one in the morgue. The guy in the morgue wasn't involved - he was inside his house watching TV when the stray came through the window.

Spay and pray is NOT a defensive tactic unless you are using a belt fed as an "area denial" weapon. Guys, seriously, unless you have the US Army's resupply system, all automatic fire does is convert an expensive gun into a VERY expensive club. Semi-auto is almost (in some cases, exactly) as fast as full auto, doesn't waste nearly as much ammo if you make any effort to keep the target in sight, does substantially less damage to innocent bystanders, and does a MUCH better job of controlling a situation. The 'hits per round fired' data makes it very clear that full auto is wasteful. May make the shooter feel good, causes the intended shootee to duck for a few seconds at least but is, in general, very ineffective unless it is being used in a military environment.

WWII showed the superiority of the semi-auto over the bolt in urban (M1 vs Mauser) and close in jungle fighting (M1 vs Type 30 Rifle Arisaka) but for long range fighting it was a wash. We are preparing to survive - if we end up in a war, we likely won't survive because we don't have the logistics tail OR the heavy weapons to fight it. If it is war, it is gorilla war only. Stand up fight with the 101st airborne or even a UN peacekeeping force and we lose.

Edited by Capt Bart

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In most ways John I completly agree with you. In a survival situation I honestly don't think I would want an AR carbine. The simplest firearm you have the better. There are far more parts for things to go wrong with a AR than a bolt action rifle or shotgun, there fore they are inferior in this sort of situation. When I fire a single bullet I will hit what I am shooting at so I don't need a 30 or 50 round mag. In a survival situation you spray 30 or 50 bullets just to be intimidating? There goes alot of ammo you may never get back. Spray and pray in a survival situation is inferior.

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To me SHTF= Survival and War=Survival. In both cases there are several different factors but the ultimate goal is to survive. First and foremost I want to say no matter what type of weapon you own, a well placed aimed shot far superior to rapid pr automatic fire. Second I want to say is if one intends on caring a rifle, shotgun or pistol, he better learn the right way and become very efficient in the use. What I mean by that is, hit what you aim at and have good fundamentals in the shooting.

 

It really does not matter what type of rifle you choose to use, sometimes you dont have a choice (finding a rifle by scavenging), but to know how to maintain it, shoot it and where to find ammunition for it. This comes to my second point on that, finding a rifle chambered in a .300 WSM or a .270 WSM is gonna be useless in the long run compared to a AR in .223. The abundance of ammo in these specialized calibers are very few and far in between. Trying to stock pile this ammunition will be expensive ($50 a box). So when looking for weapons, research your local, regional and national area and figure out the type of ammunition available for resupply through different means. Then go buy a weapon you are good with in those calibers. Basically, .22, 30.06, .308, 30-30, .223 and .243 or .270 would be good choices. You can find these in bolt action and a some in AR's. .22 is a great choice for practice and small game hunting, also can be very quiet if you use sub sonic ammunition.For pistol I would use either .45 or 9mm, the later is what I use, world wide availability. For a shotgun I would use 12 ga. Again world wide availability and multitude of ammo types.

 

I have used an AR platform for over 26 years and never had any major issues when it comes to maintaining it. When you get to know your rifle you will learn the detailed knowledge of the working parts. The AR platform is actually quite simple. Remington makes the R-25 (.308) and R-15 (.223) for hunters. Me personally would choose the AR platform because of my knowledge of it (used it a lot), the ability to add attachments (lights, sights etc) in case I need to replace mine that were damaged. Also, I rather have 30 rounds in my magazine than 4 rounds with the capability to rapidly change magazines versus loading round by round.

 

When it comes to scenarios in survival, bottom line is have good situation awareness and a good plan if something does catch you off guard. Never let yourself be stuck in a traffic jam (own a 4 wheel drive and get off the main roads) if you are sitting in a traffic jam then got to plan B and ruck up and move on foot. If you are getting mugged it is because you are in a over crowded area like a refugee style camp etc. Learn the basic elements of survival and practice them and again have a plan for keeping yourself and/or family safe and healthy.

 

When SHTF actually happens, it might be a full collapse of society (partially maybe but not full), nuclear war, epidemic or a combination of things. It may be regionally or hemispheric. No matter what, it is a WAR. A war for my survival and that of my family and friends.

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I'm always reminded that the whole reason for the second amendment isn't about hunting, world WROL, or SHTF. It is so that we have the ability to withstand tyranny from our own Gov't. If you think that only needing a bolt gun, a shot gun, and a hand gun may help you, should that time ever arrive, then more power to you. I will be keeping my semi-auto firepower.

Edited by CCSir

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I forgot to mention some information on the tactic of Ambushes. A proper ambush is doctrinally at least 35 meters away. We used to distinguish between a far ambush and a near ambush but in reality an ambush is an ambush if properly executed. By that I mean, if it is set up correctly, you will cause the enemy the most amount of damage and casualties. I always taught my students to be 35 meters away from the intended road/trail that you plan on ambushing. One reason is that it is at the far edge of hand grenade range (if it is wooded, then no where near the hand grenade range, the trees will hinder the throw). Plus the basic tactic of assaulting through the ambush to get behind it is mute because you will have to assault 35 meters into a well laid, intersecting fields of fire (not to mention claymores). I wont go into the details any further for good reasons.

 

If unable to assault through, you must either move out of the kill zone or gain fire superiority. I personally have been in an ambush designed to wipe out my whole patrol. We survived by gaining fire superiority with our organic weapons. Almost rain out of ammo before the enemy broke contact prior to the close air support arriving on station.

 

The last thing I want to add is having a positive survival attitude. If you already accept defeat in your head before you are in a situation then yes you are already dead. But if you always have a SOP (standard Operating Procedure) for your SHTF or what ever you do, you will be 2 steps ahead of the ones attacking you. Being prepared is what survival is about. It begins with your best and strongest survival tool, ..your mind. Read some stories about the POW's in Vietnam and you will see what is achievable with just your mind alone. Amazing people.

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

Quiet Patriot

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Quiet,

It may well be that many of our slight, and I think they are slight, differences is more about definition that substance. I fundamentally don't disagree with what I think you mean. I understand the mindset you are describing and I agree. What I think is a flaw is to approach prepping as a full up, force on force combat situation for the long term. I just don't see most of us, post TSHTF, having the logistics of the First Infantry Division to provide for long term combat situations. I do see escape and evasion as a possible necessity.

 

So when looking for weapons, research your local, regional and national area and figure out the type of ammunition available for resupply through different means.

 

Again I'm almost 100% on board here. My one change would be that once you've made sure the available ammo will do the jobs you think are the most likely roles for your battery, then go with that round. If I'm thinking I need to hunt Grizzly and Elk, I don't care if .223 is growing on trees, it isn't suitable for the prime mission. A 30-06 or .308 is more appropriate in that case. If we're talking deer and maybe black bear then even a carbine in a pistol caliber can get the job done.

 

I still don't see any survivalist need for full auto. Maybe if you have a larger group and a BOL that is being run like a military compound but even there, I think it would be extremely rare for a civilian to need full auto. If you are planning to "close a door" with one, OK, but it does need to be belt fed and heavy enough to do the job.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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My opinon.

Scenario 1:yes I need a .223 in semi auto to back up those Im standing with and if your standing with me you better be able to double tap a man at 50yards..will not need full auto,its a waste..

Scenario 2:I can tell that some have never lived in a major city.While dateing my second(and final) wife here in rural Wva,she would ask me why I always SCANNED the parking lot when I would get out of the car?My answer was just checking.Be aware of where you are and who is around and listen to who is talking and tone of voice.living in a City teaches you this and to slow down when everyone elsa is in a hurry,mistakes are made when you hurry.Yes I still put my right hand in my back pocket feeling for my pocket knife when ever I am in a place that has more than 50 people in it.No Im not a small guy,Im 6ft 4in and 215lb,but I want an edge where ever I go and I stay out of large citys now.

Scenario 3:What I just said...and yes I want my .223 in the vehicle,and my 9mm on my lap, a good reverse gear in vehicle and ability to drive backwards.

My thoughts are to agree with Capt.Bart,in a war situation we,I ,lose..if GORILLA ,oh shit I win hands down here in my mountains,at least for a while..

Yes I Bow hunt(Bear split limb compond) so I have the gear,and a 2216 aluminum full length arrow with 3 razors/chisel point and a draw at 65lb has stopped a dear at 35 to 50 yards,and can stop a man ..just saying thats why I live in them thar hills.

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Capt,

I totally agree that an individual does not need an automatic, crew served weapon like a M249 SAW or larger. You are very correct when discussing the needs of an individual while hunting. A hunter in the South east would not need a 300 WM but will use a .243 or .270 a lot. While a hunter in the rocky mountains or near Canada will more than likely need a larger caliber to take down that Elk, Moose, or Grizzly. So your addition of researching where and what you will be using it for is a perfect addition.

 

Logistics that will apply for any individual after SHTF type scenario is "battle Field" resupply. By this I mean scrounging, scavenging and searching known locations for food, water, ammunition, transportation, etc.

 

A proper mind set will help you achieve almost anything you desire. When you add training, skill and determination you can survive most scenarios.

 

Quiet Patriot

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Full auto? Never heard of it. Must be a rest of the US thing. Next thing you know your going to tell me magazines with more then 10 rounds are sold to civilians. /sarcasm

 

If you need full auto it's probably time to pack up and leave because your facing such a superior force that you need full auto. Burst could be nice for double taping but again semi auto is enough for most fights I would be willing to fight.

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Patriot,

Logistics that will apply for any individual after SHTF type scenario is "battle Field" resupply. By this I mean scrounging, scavenging and searching known locations for food, water, ammunition, transportation, etc.

Point well made. That is a prime reason I encourage everyone to be as familiar as possible with as broad a range of gear as possible. Not knowing how to take the safety off of an AK turns a serviceable firearm into a club. Knowing how to use what you find is a big boost to survival capability.

Good points all.

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unless you are truly out in the boonies and have a less than 5% chance of human contact than to say all you need is a bolt action is, in my book, tantamount to suicide, if you look at the number of firearms in private hands in this country and then look at how many of those are of the semi-auto AR or AK type then you are looking at potentially what you will come up against when the bad guys come around. I want to be at least equally armed as the bad guys and my remy 700 bolt action with only a 4 round capacity just isn't going to cut it against a determined opponent or opponents who are crazy, angry, scared, and or desperate and well armed with their own semi-auto rifles.just my opinion

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. I want to be at least equally armed as the bad guys and my remy 700 bolt action with only a 4 round capacity just isn't going to cut it against a determined opponent or opponents who are crazy, angry, scared, and or desperate and well armed with their own semi-auto rifles.just my opinion

 

I agree. I figure that I should be at least armed as well as the criminals that I may be facing. Again, I don't think that is necessary for everyone. Each of us has to determine their relative degree of security and firepower that creates a comfort level for the situations that we see as pertinent.

 

To each their own.

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WROL can equal "war" if by war you mean having to take others life to keep you and yours safe. Full auto weapons might have there uses but in times were you have to resupply yourself it should never be used except in very few situations..... I would say that shooting a couple mags at full auto at a group of thugs "might" usge them to find easier prey.

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CCSir and Wardog,

I do understand your point. I would point out, however, that the US was the only major power in WW2 that used a semi-auto battle rifle. Everyone else, Brits, Germans, Italians, Russians and Japanese all used a bolt action infantry rifle. Full auto pistols and carbines to supplement in the assault role, but the basic infantry rifle was a bolt action. In house to house clearing the semi-auto has an edge. At any longer range, not so much and uses much more ammo.

I've seen too many crime scenes on the news and in real life where 28 rounds were fired and the only one hit was an innocent bystander.

I don't have a problem with semi-auto weapons. I want a M1A myself. I do have a problem with a weapon platform choice dictating the round and mission profiles. I still maintain that, using my lever guns, I can do aimed fire as fast as most civilian users of semi-autos. I'm not that fast with a bolt but I don't shoot them as much. If you can do all/most of the jobs you need to do with a .223 or a .40 carbine in semi-auto, then that is the weapon to use. On the other hand if you are carrying a .223 BECAUSE that is all you can afford in the AR platform and you have not considered whether or not that round is an effective bear/moose/elk/deer round in your BOL then you have done yourself and those depending on you a serious disservice.

I always preach to let the mission decide the caliber and let the caliber set the platform. If you NEED a deer rifle east of the Mississippi then the 7 mm Rem Mag is a great rifle. Not so good for CQB but I don't intend to use it that way. CQB is shotgun and handgun country. Could I be wrong? Yes and if I allow myself to be ambushed at close range the bolt gun could get me killed. I doubt the AR would change that outcome and it would not be as effective in the other roles it needs to fill.

Just my not so humble opinion.

Edited by Capt Bart
spelling and clarification

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capt bart you do make good sound opinions IMHO :), sorry i wasn't trying to argue what i saw were actually good valid points on your part. I only wanted to point out (and this is from an east coast southern stand point) of what I would most likely come up against, personally I own varieties of a lot of the above mentioned weapons as i like to try and be prepared, i have heavy caliber and light caliber lever actions, bolt actions, semi-autos rifles of multiple flavors, shotguns both semi-auto , pump and even a double barrel, even a Garand :). there is going to be no one gun that will be perfect for every situation and it would suck to be caught off guard with the wrong weapon, but i think if you train with the weapons you have then that alone will make for a better outcome.

 

yes the mission should dictate the caliber but in a survival situation it is very fluid and i don't think most people will have the luxury of that option. hence why I preach an AR or an AK, i know out here a 5.56 or 7.62x39 will take down a deer by a skilled marksman, the ranges most of us will be shooting at would be less than 200 yards in most cases, I know that west of the Mississippi this wont hold true, but even out in the open there simply wont be that many people capable of accurate shots over 500 yards regardless of what they hold in their hands.

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yes the mission should dictate the caliber but in a survival situation it is very fluid and i don't think most people will have the luxury of that option. hence why I preach an AR or an AK, i know out here a 5.56 or 7.62x39 will take down a deer by a skilled marksman, the ranges most of us will be shooting at would be less than 200 yards in most cases, I know that west of the Mississippi this wont hold true, but even out in the open there simply wont be that many people capable of accurate shots over 500 yards regardless of what they hold in their hands.

I like the 7.62X39 in preference to the 5.56 because I think it is a better mid-sized game weapon. There are plenty of hogs in the south and west that just get annoyed at anything less than .30 caliber. The 5.56 CAN do the job for most but there are some monsters that really need something a tad bigger. I've always found it easier to move down than up. A .30 will do a .22's job, not as well but doable, but a .22 can't always do the .30s job.

At the range last week my son hit one of the support 2X4s with a 30-30. The round went through the board long ways at 100 yards. OK, so a 30-30 will penetrate 3.5 inches of pine. I'm not sure a .223 would do the same.

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The point of my incoherent thread was mentality. I do believe that the right to bear arms is chiefly about resistance to tyranny; that's all I'll say on that. I'm most definitely "well regulated" and equipped for my duties under the 2nd amendment folks. If you go into SHTF equipped as an Infantryman, with the mentality of an Infantryman, good luck to you. Lexington Green and Hurricane Katrina are different environments requiring different tools and mentalities, that's all I was trying to say. I've always believed that professionals talk tactics and amateurs talk gear, (to an extent, discussing necessary equipment is not what I mean) If you want to carry an AK47 in SHTF, be my guest. Just please don't run around my neighborhood with Black Hawk Down on your mind.

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JohnDoe1999

 

I am not speaking for anyone but myself but I have a lousy attitude if annoyed

a worse one on a regular day.

attitude I cannot say what works for others and do not give a sh*t I do not even care how I feel

when in my own world all I see and all I know gets devoted to the task and I hate loosing

survival can be more on focus and compartmentalizing.

things go wrong period get over it plan B plan C then wing it try what worked before or

try something new it does not matter.

I have seen the best laid plans and men GONE....I have seen a total fubar dipstick looser kid

take care of business.

WAR, it makes no sense in the fact that who what where and why those live and who dies

It is not like a face to face encounter you can be splattered by a mortar or a ricochet hit by one of

your own or hit your own someone runs right in front of you what do you say oops..

nothing can prepare a person and street / gun fight is totally different.

 

 

 

I am a person who does not work or play well with others I can make my own mistakes I do not need

anyone else to give an opinion or their protection, I will put my faith in God.

I know graveyards full of people some good some not and as far as I could tell they had no choice

being a survivor is like winning a one man sack race by yourself, winning does not make you feel

better telling anyone is like trying to explain plumbing to a monkey and waking up is your only reward

and sometimes that's no consolation as dreams and nightmares or more questions or here we go again...

And you fight for what? someone else has the house on the hill they Squall about freedom and steal it

by every word and document in secret, and in court without a lot of money you have no justice

their children do not have to eat the dirt yours do.

they have insurance do yours your sealed by your profession as to how much you make.

they are able to steal freely from you and yours and call their enemies my illustrious college.

you do not even own your own house do not pay your tax and see what happens.

eminent domain why does this even exist another way to steal from you I am not a socialist but

I am not a fool or slave to be led to the slaughter for all we have done in Iraq we get nothing no oil

and they just basically told us to get out. in the first gulf war NOTHING again your paying 3 bucks

a gallon for gas we should get it free we saved them...what did you get NOTHING AGAIN.

and heroin is still a problem and where does it come from mostly Afghanistan again your screwed.

and hundreds of murders along the Mexican boarder and drugs overflowing our schools and gangs

turning your children into scared punks, gangsters, whores or corpses.

 

If you folks spent more time investigating your officials before they were elected than watching

sports and porn on the internet maybe more veterans would be above the ground than under it.

were were all of you there should have been a occupy wall street or the capitol

when agent orange and gulf syndrome and cutting medicare and making you get part D

where were all of you when THEY attacked a church and KILLED 26 kids

heard a lot did not see a soul I know the church was bogus that is not the point the fact one

warrant and it could have been served anytime did you call your neighbors I did and nothing....

We would pay a buyers / flat tax instead of never actually owning your home and our

SUPPOSED FREEDOMS would be real instead of the facade of lies you swallow every day.

under the new home land rules we are a police state you dummies just think because there is

no tower guard your free, BOY i want some of what their giving you....

CCW for what ? no other amendment requires that I have a CARD they even give terrorist and Illegal

aliens OUR rights, LMAO OK fine I am crazy but at least I know I do not live in LALA land.

 

The reason why I choose 22 long rifle because i can carry 1k rounds i ain't worried about charging

bears or moose it these mall ninja's they call cops and the golden hordes and 35,000 gangs

every lazy stupid punk with a rod and every hate monger with an axe to grind when WROL hits

and if all you are thinking is firepower you are not going to make it it takes OTHER things too

I have said it before and will say it again you need thousands and it is all going to be close range

within 100 yards unless you live in wide open spaces and few neighbors then I can see 308 and a 50

but I bet you do not get off more than a few if its the folks I think are coming for you..

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ok i take issue with oh at 35 feet you dont need a military style rifle. For one thing, We train in close quarters marksmanship, 35 feet with my ar, i dont even have to aim to hit you. But I would never use full auto, even if my AR had it. 30 rounds goes to quick, and why do full auto when controled triplets, 2 in the chest and one in the head, make you just as dead and saves my ammo. Oh and as for the distance shooting saying a hunting rifle would be best. We trained out to 600 meters with m-4s, sure a sniper would like a bolt action rifle, but if your not the greatest shot, having a higher rate of fire is your best friend.

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Keep in mind Doc, most civilians don't train for close quarters shooting, so being able to draw a semi auto rifles full potential out inside of fifty meters is outside of their experience. And yeah, I agree with you on auto fire, terrible waste of ammo, only good for suppression in concert with at least a squad of riflemen. I like controlled pairs myself, triplets have always seemed a bit much to me, just my taste I guess (Although, if i were relying on say a high cap .22 I may go that route).

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