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J.D.CR29

Force Multipliers Vs. Over Redundancy in BOL Defense

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I’d like to discuss what I think are under mentioned topics that can be force multipliers versus the tendency of gun owners to collect many weapons.

Of course, having several weapons allows you to arm trusted allies. For me, I chose to go with a Ruger Mini14 as my primary defensive weapon, and a Remington 870 (12 Gauge 7+1) as my home defense and handout gun. My philosophy is that when one of my friends shows up, that is only a semi competent shot (due to my instruction) but who is unarmed, he can make use of my 870 and my stockpile of 00Buck. Having a well armed partner is a HUGE force multiplier and a massive increase in survivability in any confrontation. However, does it really make sense to simply buy another gun every paycheck?

Other force multipliers seem less common; such as body armor, night vision, and small unit training. I’ve noticed a profound level of misinformation, misunderstanding, and an odd perception of armor. Firstly it’s not illegal to own unless you’re a felon. Secondly, there is a popular perception that only criminals wear it (something reinforced by many manufacturers’ L.E. only policy and bank robbers.) To put it bluntly, if I’m buying a semiautomatic rifle, I’m preparing for a potential firefight. If I’m preparing for a firefight, I’m going to prepare to get shot, you should too. On the topic of night vision, I see far too little discussion. Anybody who would plan to overwhelm a BOL or other “stronghold” would want to deny you the use of your strengths, and exploit your weaknesses. Therefore, nobody in their right mind would expose themselves to your rifle fire. Does it not make sense that a hostile group would recruit large numbers, and attempt to close on your position under cover of darkness where their superior numbers and initiative would overwhelm you in close combat? Simply having a night optic could allow you (or your night sentry) to see this coming, and regain the initiative with early warning to set up defense or spoiling fires/attack. Lastly, I see very little true “fight” training. Practicing marksmanship is of course essential, as proficiency at basics is critical to building other skills. However, shooting paper from a static position is no more comprehensive, than punching a bag in preparation for a boxing match is. Now I’m not equating conventional infantry attrition warfare to SHTF defense. Close combat allows common close range weapons at the enemy’s disposal to be used and is very high attrition due to low skill requirements to hit targets. The objective of SHTF defense is survival not warfigthing. However, we can learn something from the military. Modern Infantry tactics are based on fire and maneuver. Fire without maneuver, can leave static positions vulnerable to being suppressed and maneuvered on, destroyed by superior fire, or being unable to affect the decisive points of confrontation. Additionally maneuver without fire, is disastrous, as there is nothing keeping the opposing force from engaging elements in the open. Despite the “militia” connotation, learning to run and gun through the use of a few battle drills will drastically increase your group’s defensive posture. Even running away, when done in a tactically unsound fashion is nothing more than exposing your back to fire.

So in conclusion, I urge you to consider concepts that are a-typical to average civilian gun owner thinking, and that will hopefully help you multiply your defensive power.

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the best force multiplier is fire all you need is a delivery system or a remote actuator.

 

I don't care if they are armored from head to toe depending on what type of heat they are not going to be

concerned with you but getting out of dodge.

 

cayenne pepper is cheap as is powdered horse radish and numerous other natural deterrents.

 

toluene is a fun substance.

 

firearms are only one in many of defending your property, a lot of prank type things can be used as warning devices if you can design a way to employ them remotely and automatically.

 

the secret of defense is not to be a one trick pony.

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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J.D.,

True enough, as far as your statements go but the problem with too many security devices is that they won't be properly used. Even in combat zones, vest are not worn 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A high dollar item is not a force multiplier if it is not used. It is not used because it is hot and uncomfortable. I suspect that LEO's remove their vests very shortly after going off duty. Ever wonder why? Even a vest has a down side. Yes, it may (or may not, depending on caliber) keep you from being killed by bullet wound trauma, it may not keep you from being seriously hurt or killed by the impact trauma of a major caliber weapon. It might also give you a false sense of safety; the bank robbers died even thought they faced an under-armed opposition that was not really equipped to defeat their armor.

 

As for tech toys like night vision, I actually am looking for one for me. The problem with tech toys is how much do you depend on them. Any expensive item tends to take a 'pride of place' in your defense plans even if it isn't the best choice or fully expensive. Can you image having a $10,000 .50 BMG and NOT basing your BOL defense on that weapon? Night vision, GPS, motion sensors, etc. are all great but if you build your defense around them and they 'go away' due to power or EMP or 'mother ship' approach or ???? you are without preps. If you do not have adequate monitoring of your sensors and other devices then you have a false sense of security, very much like the traveling sheeple have from the TSA gropes.

 

Just my not so humble opinion, of course, but high tech is acquired AFTER everything else. I'm in favor of force multipliers, but remember that combat is not our primary focus and dealing with a high tech Fort Apache is not a good Plan A in my opinion.

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Captain, the thing that got me thinking was an experience with my friend in Texas. He has a safe full of rifles, as he was apparently a collector first and a prepper second. What I basically said to him, was that unless he was planning to arm his neighborhood (which he'd need a metric ton of ammo for anyway) I thought he was wasting his money. He had not covered other bases effectively (food, water etc) and seemed to think that 10 rifles that accomplish the same general function (fighting and hunting 10 each) somehow increased his security. I'd prefer 2 rifles, a lot of ammo, and a well rounded personal kit, after having covered all bases first.

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J.D.CR29

 

you have the right concept I wold include tools and hand powered equipment like a grain mill

corn sheller pea sheller there is a hand blender made by bosch axes and saws shovels knifes

draw knifes wood planes wood and metal chisels things like that.

 

rope, cordage and string I buy at garage or flea markets I have quite a bit of lamp wicks and

scissors and all manner of hand tools non electric as how will I be able to afford electricity

 

because if you do not have it and your money is worthless how are you going to afford it and will

someone want to part with it and without craigs list how you going to find it.

 

I lived on a ranch we had most everything on hand or could use a substitute in an emergency.

I have leather straps and pieces I keep and have a few rolls of sinew thread and a stichin' awl

and extra needles as well as many sewing needles including Upholstery needles and material

go a lot of cammo and linen as these are need to make and strain foods and drinks as well as to repair

shoes boots and clothing.

 

the microwave generation does not resole their shoes or sew a ripped shirt I was lucky my generation

was better than my fathers but I learned the value of money and we did not buy new clothes for work

clothing as we did a lot of manual labor and mechanical work so why would we your old clothes were recycled into work clothes loose sole on a boot we glued it and sewed it for as long as it was useful.

I think we may have to live that era again.

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JD,

absolutely agree. There is nothing wrong with the 'because I want it' reason for any piece of kit (usually applies to weapons but could be anything) IF AND ONLY IF all of the basic needs are taken care of first.

 

I don't criticize those who 'only' have a basic 3 gun battery or even one gun if it fits their requirements. Well, I still invoke 2 is 1 and 1 is none but if a 30-30 lever fits your needs I won't argue that you need a .308 battle rifle. On the other hand, if you've got your year's supply of food and water and want that M1 Garand because that's what your dad had in Korea, then go for it.

 

My concern is for the city dweller who has a .338 Lapua and is trying to build his home defense strategy around that platform because it cost so much he feels compelled to justify it's use. A .375 H&H Mag has no use in Houston unless a circus train wrecks (I saw the movie!) and the rhinos escape. But the sheer joy of shooting something you like is reason enough unless it compromises your survival.

 

Snake,

I think we may have to live that era again.

I wish you were wrong, I pray you are wrong, but I believe you are correct.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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night vision would be cool, but expensive compared to the economic utility i would get from several thousand rounds or a few new weapons.

 

also needs batteries which kind of go against the long term sustainability your preps and using them if something happened.

 

when i have everything i need, then night vision will be obtained.

 

agree on the guns, i got on or two rifles and handguns. my rifles match each other in caliber and same clips, handguns too. i have more money in clips, ammo, and then gun b/c the gun is useless with out ammo, gun only fires ammo in a clip, and therefore clips to me are were most of gun money is spent.

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night vision would be cool, but expensive compared to the economic utility i would get from several thousand rounds or a few new weapons.

 

also needs batteries which kind of go against the long term sustainability your preps and using them if something happened.

 

when i have everything i need, then night vision will be obtained.

 

agree on the guns, i got on or two rifles and handguns. my rifles match each other in caliber and same clips, handguns too. i have more money in clips, ammo, and then gun b/c the gun is useless with out ammo, gun only fires ammo in a clip, and therefore clips to me are were most of gun money is spent.

 

look for digital night vision on optics planet and depending on the batteries your other equipment uses

there are some that use AA and some use the CR123 the digital gives a better picture and also

can use black & white mode for a more defined picture in certain circumstances also the digital

has a built in flare / flash circuitry that does not allow burnout like the older non digital units.

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I would agree that realistic training is as important as redundant firearms/hardware if not more.

 

That said I think it's prudent one consider non-firearm means as excellent force mulitpliers and I would have to agree with JCMS that fire (with various delivery systems) is an outstanding force multiplier.

 

In short, any tactic that will conceal your position/strength/movements/forces/intent or otherwise impede or incapacitate your enemy's ability to use his force against you can be as effective as pouring more and heavier rounds per minute at him.....

 

Wolfe

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There are many ways to practice group tactics, other than live fire, paintball is a great exercise in group tactics, I have a friend who has many huge trophys from paintball tournaments he and his team.

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There are many ways to practice group tactics, other than live fire, paintball is a great exercise in group tactics, I have a friend who has many huge trophys from paintball tournaments he and his team.

 

Hi DonDon,

 

I've considered paintball myself but never played it. How about yourself?

 

Obviously, it's going to differ from a live fire exercise or real combat but it would be interesting to hear from some vets who been in combat and played paintball how they compare, and what are the main benefits of paintball as a training method.

 

Wolfe

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Hi DonDon,

 

I've considered paintball myself but never played it. How about yourself?

 

Obviously, it's going to differ from a live fire exercise or real combat but it would be interesting to hear from some vets who been in combat and played paintball how they compare, and what are the main benefits of paintball as a training method.

 

Wolfe

 

I have played several times myself even bought a gun a nd mask, there was a contest years a go in which a seal team was knocked out of a tournament by a group of junior high kids, we have several fields around here that have many scenarios set up urban door to door, wild west main street, take the high ground, hold the high ground. One of our area fields has a plane "wrecked" in the woods we did a plane wreck E&E sceniaro there once fought our way out of the wreckage thru the woods into town to "evac". Played many others that were just as cool but the bottom line is if your group can't fire and move, use fixing fire, cover fire etc, you will lose, we had a guy that we played with who ran a paintball store and he was the same as a light machine gun firing 10 rounds a second from a battery feed hopper holding 250 balls. When you are pinned behind a log watching three guys fan to flank you, low on ammo, calling for fire support to move, you are as close as possible to the real thing as it gets!

 

As you have me thinking about I really did learn a lot paint balling and had a awesome time can get a little expensive and that why I stopped playing. And for all you Texans......I have held the Alamo! And yes I remember it well!!!

Edited by DonDon

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I have played several times myself even bought a gun a nd mask, there was a contest years a go in which a seal team was knocked out of a tournament by a group of junior high kids, we have several fields around here that have many scenarios set up urban door to door, wild west main street, take the high ground, hold the high ground. One of our area fields has a plane "wrecked" in the woods we did a plane wreck E&E sceniaro there once fought our way out of the wreckage thru the woods into town to "evac". Played many others that were just as cool but the bottom line is if your group can't fire and move, use fixing fire, cover fire etc, you will lose, we had a guy that we played with who ran a paintball store and he was the same as a light machine gun firing 10 rounds a second from a battery feed hopper holding 250 balls. When you are pinned behind a log watching three guys fan to flank you, low on ammo, calling for fire support to move, you are as close as possible to the real thing as it gets!

 

As you have me thinking about I really did learn a lot paint balling and had a awesome time can get a little expensive and that why I stopped playing. And for all you Texans......I have held the Alamo! And yes I remember it well!!!

 

Lots of paintball action over here as well. I will check it out, thanks a lot for the info, it sounds like a blast...literally.

 

Wolfe

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While paintball fights may be fun, what do you learn from it? When you get hit do you keep fighting or sit the rest of them game out. After a paintball session do you look at yourself and realize that some of those spots could have ended your life forever? Then stop to think of what happens next to your family. And if you are taking the dirt nap then Snake and I split up your gear.

 

The game should be based upon the premiss that you avoid the other team (agressors) and if you are hit then you should have your team mates get you back to your base camp where it is determined the severity of the wound. If it is mortal then you take no more part in that series of games. And the next ones you play only a minor defensive part.

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never played paint ball, played real guns & azzholes

 

That is where this is going. Some people play at life because they haven't lived enough of it. Others think that this is all fun and games but the reality of it is that if you are shot for real in a survival situation, no matter how the minor the wound, you may not live.

 

At least in vietnam we had medics and medivac. In a SHTF situation not so. Does anyone really want to play war with real guns. The ones who have for real usually do not want to. I would rather evade the masses and not try to engage them. Been there done that. Count me out.

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At this time I have not done any paint ball....however.... I do beleave it does add to ones' understanding of what is required to survive a situation should you become involved in a SHTF senario. By planning what you want to learn and then playing it out you have created the muscle memory and learned what works and doesn't work for that particular senario. Having guys that have been there done that in the group to help set the "game" up would go a long way to creating the needed reality. Much better to have learned by being shot up in a game than in reality....It could prevent the event from happening in real life.

A buddy of mine gets into paint ball and he assures me that getting hit will get your attention and getting hit by a frozen paint ball will really get your attention. We don't hand a weapon to a newbe and send them to the front expecting them to know what to do ..... we teach ..... this is just another tool to hone the edge of the weapon.

Edited by Partsman

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At this time I have not done any paint ball....however.... I do beleave it does add to ones' understanding of what is required to survive a situation should you become involved in a SHTF senario. By planning what you want to learn and then playing it out you have created the muscle memory and learned what works and doesn't work for that particular senario. Having guys that have been there done that in the group to help set the "game" up would go a long way to creating the needed reality. Much better to have learned by being shot up in a game than in reality....It could prevent the event from happening in real life.

A buddy of mine gets into paint ball and he assures me that getting hit will get your attention and getting hit by a frozen paint ball will really get your attention. We don't hand a weapon to a newbe and send them to the front expecting them to know what to do ..... we teach ..... this is just another tool to hone the edge of the weapon.

 

Thank you partsman! I am not saying that paintball is the same as actual combat......duh! And yes paintballs do hurt .68cal 3 gram projectile hitting you at 320 fps or faster as we do routinely " over chrono" guns for range and accuracy, as for frozen balls they do not feed well and are a good way to get a serious real world beat down. Some fields do small simple just shootem up games on 50 yard fields, other like where we went are open 80 acre battlefields with diversion terrain and permanent buildings and obstacles, I have been in scenarios where wound severity and care for the wounded were part of the game, so yes I have practiced unit tactics to evac a wounded ally under fire, contact skirmishes, fighting retreats to pull the enemy into ambushes. If you think that paintball can't help hone skills than find a good field near you and see if some 10 year olds dont teach you a little of what they learned playing Modern Warfare or Halo on their PS3. I have seen bands of these kids annilate superior forces at a disadvantage.

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I refused a team building exercise with a company; I finally explained to them that while laser tag in a 'realistic scenario' might be fun to them, it would NOT be fun to me. I have been in one or more two way lead exchanges and the more realistic it was, the more likelihood someone would get hurt. Jump up close to me, out of a fog and I'll introduce you to something called a 'vertical butt stroke', as an example.

 

Paintball CAN be good, the Army used BB guns when I did basic, low these many decades ago. The good stuff is fire and maneuver. The bad stuff is the confusing of concealment with cover; range effects; and a lack of penalty for poor performance. If there is a competent instructor available, I think it is great. If I get shot by the 'B' team during a leap frog maneuver, I'd much rather it be a paint ball or air soft as opposed to a 150 grain slug. The paintball gets an apology, an 'I owe you a beer' and a try again until we get it right. With the lead 'paintball' it's a trip to the local trauma center.

 

Like many tools, it can be useful but if used wrong, it causes real problems. I've seen paint ball folks who are really careless with muzzle control. I don't care to have ANY gun pointed at me, even if it is not a real lead launcher. You fight like you train and if you are used to being careless with a paint ball gun because it isn't a 'real' gun you will be careless with your actual weapon when stressed. People die that way.

 

Also remember that those kids have never seen a friend actually shot. Halo is a fun game because there is a reset button. Lots of young men go marching merrily off to war but they don't come home that way. The reality of the event is always missing in these situations. There is much that can be learned but never confuse it with the real thing. The violence of an actual firefight is unimaginable for most folks - thank God. I pray they never find out.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

Edited by Capt Bart

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Vis 9 well if you can avoid it you should.

 

Capt Bart your correct as usual.

 

and I have carried a rod for so long for so many reasons I do not think about it it is how it is.

I have made a lifetimes worth of enemies and I thought I was right then and nothing has changed

to make me suppose different in only one segment of my life I owed and managed bars not always

the nice ones I have had to deal with dope dealers & heads hot heads brain deads and well as convicts

gang bangers and bikers hookers grafters punks and deranged lovers or exes.

fist fights gun fights and knife and que stick fights.

even had guys come after me with a axe, claw hammer and chain and many other party favors.

when people are drunk high or both you are forced to deal with it and you cannot always count on

the police or anyone else and a 4 AM your options are making a bank drop or taking it home and doing

it before you open people know this and they think they can take you and you got to deal with it.

 

I have come to the conclusion everyone that has a gun thinks they are big as a bull and bold as brass

stick them in a place full of liquor and naked women and sit back and watch the ego's explode.

so it comes down to who is willing to bet their life on the outcome and I was always kind of pissed that I was on this planet anyway so prodding me only made me more pissed.

thinking someone thinks I am a pushover really really pisses me off the funny part is I am the black sheep and I have outlived them all {of the goodie two shoes that used to look down their nose at me}

and now I try to be a goodie two shoes, ain't life funny one side note I never made fun of Christians or mistreated them even if they did not like me, I guess I knew that they were right I was just not ready then.

 

And even today if someone gets on my bad side {I have been told I really do not have a good side}

my eyes will roll back and still get pissed at everyone and everything, I am a work in progress.

and if they are stupid enough to throw down either me or the undertaker is going to find out who's

got the juice.

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I've read only the first page of this thread.

 

There's nothing wrong with tactical preparedness, but it's not the end all be all of prepping. One needs to look at the reasonableness of any scenario that might befall him.

 

Clean air, safety, shelter, clean water, and food should be the biggest priorities. I don't believe that it's reasonable to prepare for an end of society/Book of Eli/Mad Max/Red Dawn scenario. That said, I'm a firm believer in knowing how to "run your gun."

 

I believe if anyone is going to own any type of defensive firearm then one should know how to operate it any number of scenarios including low light conditions, shooting from a variety of positions including from behind cover, off hand shooting, combat and tactical reloads, stop action drills, shooting on the move, shooting stationary at moving targets, and shooting on the move at moving targets (tricky!).

 

If one wants to go so far as to use night vision equipment then so be it. If I had an extra $1,000 or so lying around that I had nothing to do with I'd buy some, yet that item is pretty low on my list of wants in life and unlikely to ever float to the top. I've worn a pair of night vision goggles once in my life, and I'd wager it was some time around 1999. We all know they've improved since then. I do know that if you buy night vision optics you'll need to do considerable training with them as your perception, periphery, and reactions will change.

 

Selecting and using body armour isn't as simple as buying it, wearing it, and putting it to use. This is something I know a bit more about than night vision equipment because I've worn concealable body armour for years. I also know that it gives people a false sense of security. The various vests and other accessories are not bullet proof. They are resistant to penetration. A note about concealable armour is this: sure, it doesn't stop rifles or even some handgun calibers. It's a statistical crapshoot. It's selected on the likelihood of what an adversary is likely to possess. Police officers, the largest wearer of concealable armour, know that most criminals don't carry .44 mag or .357 Sig handguns although a IIIA vest (the most protective concealment vest)is resistant to these. A level II may as well, but this is an area you'll just have to read up on yourself. The volumes are vast. Most criminals will be armed with .22, .25 auto, .380 acp, or a 9mm which a level II will resist. They're smaller and cheaper, and they can hide them. Rarely are holsters used so pockets and crotches are the biggest concealment sites for Joe Q. Thug. If a criminal was reported to be or seen wielding a long gun then the entirety of the tactical response is going to change.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone here assumes this, but bullets don't bounce off of plate armour leaving the wearer unaware of a strike. The ceramic ones are virtually useless after a single strike and risk damage from being dropped or even fallen on. Once the integrity is compromised they're useless.

 

The torso isn't the only area to protect. Unless one has readily available access to surgery and a front line individual that knows what he's doing then you'll need to worry about the rest of your body as well, but a few points to remember, aside from the entire appendicular skeleton, are the lower abdomen, genitalia, femoral arteries, the axilla and axillary arteries, the neck (it's so easy to damage a neck and there's a lot in there to damage!), and your entire head. Sure, you don't see high speed operators wearing extra protection, but that's because they're "high speed." Just because you see SWAT and the military wearing a variety of armour doesn't mean that it's right for you in your defensive system. I think people's minds work along the lines of, "If I wear a vest then I'm 50% safe." I'm not saying don't buy it by any means, but go find some and look at it for a while. Sure, it's cool. You can say to your buddies, "Look what I bought!" You may also become the envy of your immediate prepping network, and yes the items could potentially save your life. I don't think it's entirely absurd for the man who's not in a profession of arms, but I think your funds, time (again it'll take CONSIDERABLE education to choose the best array), and training to put to use. After all is said and done the likelihood of it ever being useful is negligible and not completely reasonable to invest in, in my opinion.

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As Always a balance needs to be made..

Tooth or Tail.....

City or country...

City,yep need to have a plan to repell the large numbers of armed folks.

 

Country(here in WVa.) If they can climb these mountains and NOT get killed by a bear or get lost and starve,well than they have to face people who will shoot you just because your a "Yankee"..

Sorry about the Rant..just keeping it REAL.............

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hi all

yes i know paint ball is a good teaching method.you can make a mistake and everyone on your team can still go home alive.then try not making the same mistake next week.you can learn the affects of cross fire, cover fire,moving in 2/4,4/4 or tactics.i've seen people get buck fever,panic throw there gun down and take off running.until i seen it i never dreamed that could be possible.i was happy with what i was able to teach, everyone had fun,and they learned alot except the blood and guts.nothin i know teaches that.skinning animals may help some.

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