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J.D.CR29

Force Multipliers Vs. Over Redundancy in BOL Defense

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Imho I would feel that splitting the difference between force multiplication and redundancy would be the best option. I inherited a 30-30 and a 45-70. Now I understand that these 2 calibers wil not work as well for defending my BOL but in a defensiven posture if I manage to hit someone with a 480 grain round it will some damage body armor or not. For my BOL defense I would like to feild my 870 and ar-15 holding quals in both but acceling with the 870 I would hand off the AR. As I can speed load and combat load as needed.

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Imho I would feel that splitting the difference between force multiplication and redundancy would be the best option. I inherited a 30-30 and a 45-70. Now I understand that these 2 calibers wil not work as well for defending my BOL but in a defensiven posture if I manage to hit someone with a 480 grain round it will some damage body armor or not. For my BOL defense I would like to feild my 870 and ar-15 holding quals in both but acceling with the 870 I would hand off the AR. As I can speed load and combat load as needed.

 

There is not one thing wrong with either caliber for a defensive round and either will do most jobs needed in a TSHTF scenario. They worked well throughout the latter 1800's and early 1900's in combat situations. They may be a tad overkill for squirrels and rabbits but ...... In truth, most armies used bolt action weapons up until AFTER WW2. That 45-70 (govt or Marlin?) is lethal out to over 2000 yards. If you're facing a rush by 20 or 30 BGs who are willing to take the causalities they can probably overwhelm you if they start from under 50 yards but otherwise, I'd say a lever gun in either caliber would get the job done. If they are in close, a semi-auto might get you out alive, but that 45-70 can shoot through most of the hiding places the BGs are likely to use so it is a matter of just how many causalities they are willing to take. Remember, the M1 Carbine has about the same ballistics as the 30-30 out to over 100 yards. Many more than 20 BGs and you need full auto, belt fed and it is still iffy but fewer than that and I'd still take a 30-30 lever gun over an M16 pattern, 5.56 weapon any day.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

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I agree on all points Sir, if I had the money for a scope that could handle the recoil of my 45-70gov I would put rounds out there as preemptive tactic pending I have the line of sight... which is rarely the case. But in a perfect situation with a good overwatch postion and heads up from a spotter I would engage at 1500 yards then trade out at 600 yards to the ar then at 100 yards switch out to the 870 pushing rifled slugs the reload with 00 buck. But thats a wet dream... sitting ontop of the pet shop looking down Washington st as it comes onto the island... but there are way too many variables and because I can reach out to 1000 yards Doesn't mean I should. One miss placed shot could comprise more than just my hidey hole. But I have some food for thought since I really never thought of my 30-30 in an offensive posture. But that why I like this site.

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This has been a really interesting discussion and has given me a lot to think about, so thank you everyone for your contributions!

 

If you are looking for a tactics course that can be done individually or as a group, using real firearms, while getting advice from people who have been professionally trained, here's an option:

 

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

 

It's one of my "to do" items after my more urgent preps have been handled. Lacking any military or LE experience, completing a program like this could do nothing but improve my odds after TSHTF.

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I agree on all points Sir, if I had the money for a scope that could handle the recoil of my 45-70gov I would put rounds out there as preemptive tactic pending I have the line of sight... which is rarely the case. But in a perfect situation with a good overwatch postion and heads up from a spotter I would engage at 1500 yards then trade out at 600 yards to the ar then at 100 yards switch out to the 870 pushing rifled slugs the reload with 00 buck. But thats a wet dream... sitting ontop of the pet shop looking down Washington st as it comes onto the island... but there are way too many variables and because I can reach out to 1000 yards Doesn't mean I should. One miss placed shot could comprise more than just my hidey hole. But I have some food for thought since I really never thought of my 30-30 in an offensive posture. But that why I like this site.
.

 

Better start thinking of 30-30 as offensive, if the gun control nuts get their way then lever action will again be the best we can buy! I really gotta get an AR or AK or at least a SKS while the getting is good.

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ADRskew

 

Any good scope will handle 45-70 as I have posted Leopold Burris and Nikon get any of these with a bullet drop compensator or BDC is an excellent choice.

 

believe it or not the calibers that are recoil sensitive are the small ones especially air rifles, 22 s, l, LR.

and many 22 center fire rifles.

 

Eye relief on large heavy recoiling calibers I use a 2x7 LER long eye relief scope using the proper scope rings

and base you can adjust it forward to the perfect distance somewhere 5 to 8 inches away from your eye.

 

standard scopes 3 to 4 inches eye relief for standard calibers should be fine but some shooters have a tendency to "crawl the stock" stretch there neck toward the scope and when the scope comes back on recoil

and it does not take much as the edge of the scope rim is thin and your brow ridge has a hard bone behind

compressing the skin between will cut it like a knife.

 

One other reason for LER scopes when hunting dangerous game you do not want to disregard your peripheral

vision dangerous game in herds or small groups work together solitary ones like leopard are just plain fast

and quiet and when you think your stalking them they are stalking you or your in the wrong place wrong time

and one of his buddies is next to you.

It is hard to change from hunting Bambie to dangerous game, fire reload and start scanning for a unseen

others, and making sure your target is not recovering for a run at you.

bears have jumped people from cover or just around a large log one thing about animals you cannot predict

them and strange but true they are very quiet an elephant could be close enough to hit with a rock and if the jungle is thick or heavy brush you will never know they are there just like any of the big cats.

I have a habit before I come up on a downed dangerous animal I shoot one more time to make damn sure.

a shot can miss all vitals and the pressure wave can knock them out but unlike

humans animals can recover in the blink of an eye.

 

I advise the use of a kick eze recoil pad and or a dead mule kick reducer for those kicking b@stards

also keep your thumb beside the stock not wrapped around the neck of the grip or else you will bust your nose with your knuckle of your thumb.

 

I always wrap from the first joint of my finger to the second with a thin piece of suede and some light tape

if that bugger comes back it will remove the skin or crack your knuckle you will see a lot of steel plate shooters

firing single shot break action pistols do this firing T/C contenders in 30-30 winchester it good sense.

 

there are only steel scope rings and bases IMHO aluminum is for beer and soda cans for large bore .375 and up

nothing worse than wasting all that money on a hunt finding your base or rings have broken

not to mention if they fail in the middle of a life and death situation.

 

there are so many great options available so before you plunk down that hard earned money make sure

it has the features you want personally I am old school all I need is a BDC good external knobs and edge to edge finished glass lenses as that is where your light gathering and clarity of image comes from

and there is the difference between cheap crap and quality I have shot thousands of rounds in all calibers

hundreds in exotic calibers and if the scope, rings, and bases were from a quality manufacturer

I have never had a problem.

 

Some other tips before you mount your screws try to put them in by hand if they are loose buy new ones

if they will not go in same if you use hex head or special type screw have extra wrenches if the screw head is

damaged in any way replace it and use blue locktite to keep it from becoming loose, never use red or any other

back in the day we used varnish and let set over night same with iron sights as soon as I get a rifle I remove

the sights and reset them with blue locktite and go sight it in again after changing out any crappy mounts or

rings and screws on any of my center fire rifles.

 

many of you already know these facts this is for the novice shooters out there expect to pay 200 to 1,000 for a good scope average is about 450 bucks but I have bought used Leopold and Burris for a couple of hundred

they have lifetime warranty's so if they have a problem I send them in Nikon is also a great scope and there are others but the price goes up and for the average shooter under hunting conditions they are not needed.

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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I agree snake, there is a great deal more to a scoped rifle than slapping on a scope and blasting away. To make the shot count you need to know where ypu round is going to end up. So drop, windage, elevation, amd even weather come into play. But as a force multiplier a 45-70 scoped would not do as well as a m1a or an ar15 unless you are looking to cause physiologically trauma. I dont care how hardened you are. A 480 grain JHP smashing to your buddy at range isnt gonna be to pretty. But when it is all said and done a firearm is a tool and every tool has its place. Im not going to use a45-70 to kill a squirrel (granted it would be funny in a morbid way) and im not going to use a daisy BB gun to deter a threat, as long as I have options and I do have options. From logistical stand point a 45-70 would not work as a force multiplier as well as my ar-15 due to weight and lack of flexibility. For a force multiplier just get a 240B or a tommy gun or a UMP 40. just my humble opinion.

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