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whgoff

newbie questioning the overall concept of a lot of peoples "plan"

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You have to be optimistic too there whgoff, it seems to me like your "everyone" theory or ideology of invitation to your knowledge and ways should shtf, could cut your legs right out from under you. Im gonna admit, i am the solo, individualistic rambo type when it comes to prepping mainly in a stand alone sense because the less the better. MHO. Im thinking that if you invite the wrong crowd or person under your wing then you could possibly be setting yourself up for failure by him/ her or them taking you for what you have. The world is too imperfect for everyone to be willing to adapt/adhere to you and your ways for their greater long term good. Why take the time and learn when all it takes is a bullet or ambush to take everything you have worked hard for and towards? they might ask themselves....

I personally am the type that would watch at a distance and observe rather than take in and risk all my gear and equipment, which to me is worth more to myself than to someone it doesnt belong to. Survival is the ultimate human instinct above all and risking the gift of life and the time it took for me to gain and utilize the knowledge contained isnt worth seeing if people on the road need a drink of water. Theres always gonna be somebody somewhere that thinks they need what you have a little more than you do and avoiding that situation at all costs is more logical because the risk out-weighs the benefits to me man. again, MHO.

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It all sounds good. KUM Ba Ya. Who will be in charge of all of these people? Kind of like taking off one yoke and putting on another one. And soon there will be taxes collected to pay for one thing and another. I think I will pass until I see how this will all shake out....of course I may not even live that long. LOL.

Edited by VIS 9

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Unless there is more than one "Gun Cay" you will be busy making water. It may not have permanent inhabitants, but there certainly are plenty of boating and sailing visitors in any given time frame.

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Oh no I definately see the dangers involved its a risk. It's a risk u take either way solo or a group. I'm not that retarded that I'd go immediately up to a complete stranger and show what's in my wallet. " hey I see you are thirsty well guess what I have a massive parabolic mirror and it will boil 100 gal of water per day. That's a quick way to get a bullet in you. You would have to be very cautious with the first few people u invite to join. As at first it's me possibly against one other person. Then two vs one then 3 and in the early stages when you are still a very small group you are still quite vulnerable to attack but when 5 people turns to 25 25 turns to 40 to 100 you gain strength through numbers. That's why I say build early. Why wait until the local biker gangs have all united and are 300 strong before u begin it will be too late by then.

And as far as who will lead all these people as stated vote and make it in a way as to limit power as to not become a dictatorship. I know that if a group of 10 desperate hungry starving people stumble upon 3 who are thriving hydrated and safe they would question wether to join up with or kill us and take our resources. However when the small group is 70 strong those 10 people won't be nearly as tempted to attack and just join forces for food and water. My point is there will be organizations and gangs and they will be just as hungry and thirsty as everyone else but they will have numbers and strength on their side. So I opt to be in a pretty large 100+ member "gang" as well to give more incentive for people to drop their guns and pick up a hoe and help us out for food and water rather than attack us.

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As far as visitors I'm sure there would be. But it's no easy hike u have to cross the gulf stream to get there so prob anyone showing up would be pretty well off too. If fun cay became too much of a target where is only 3 hr boat trip from Miami we'd just "vote" on if our little settlement should migrate farther out to the exumas which have hundreds of lil uninhibited islands and farther out. Google the islands. Bimini gun cay is option 1 but if u show up and were not there ;) you can find us in the exumas parasailing :)

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Oh one more thing about the islands the waters are so shallow for a long ways off the island there is very little danger of any large groups even being able to get to you. Any "pirate ship" holding any decent amount of people will be a huge boat with too deep of a draft to get close enough without grounding it and ripping the keel off and sinking and good luck swimming for a mile through shark infested waters to attack. So if anyone comes at all it would be small groups. so yeah when the time comes everyone here is invited lol and if you want trouble beware even though it appears as though it's just 5 guys dying of Ebola and doing rain dances in our grass skirts with war paint on. Beware there's 95 more hiding in the tree line and I'll have a flock under my grass skirt lol. Ps someone bring a sun oven and a cookbook I can't cook for sh@t!!

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Ud probably have to YouTube it to see what it's capable of doing. YouTube parabolic mirror boiling water or parabolic mirror cooking and you'll find tons of videos. Think magnifying glass only large scale

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Femvet if you don't know what a parabolic mirror is you prob don't know what a sun oven is either. In the event things get real bad you'll be wanting to use the sun for as much as you can. Sum ovens can cook food at 350 degrees in the dead of winter using only the sun parabolic mirror depending on the size can heat a small localized area up to several thousand degrees. Go to greenpowerscience.com to buy the shiny material and make one from a small satellite dish you can find for free. You can make a pretty big mirror for 50 bux capable of boiling water in under 2 mins

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Femvet if you don't know what a parabolic mirror is you prob don't know what a sun oven is either. In the event things get real bad you'll be wanting to use the sun for as much as you can. Sum ovens can cook food at 350 degrees in the dead of winter using only the sun parabolic mirror depending on the size can heat a small localized area up to several thousand degrees. Go to greenpowerscience.com to buy the shiny material and make one from a small satellite dish you can find for free. You can make a pretty big mirror for 50 bux capable of boiling water in under 2 mins

 

Not all sun ovens use parabolic mirrors. Nevertheless, lens and parabolic mirrors serve the same purpose. Both focus light. The largest telescopes use mirrors in place of the main lens as the mirror is easier to make than a lens. You car headlights probably have a parabolic mirror in them. The light bulb is at the focus; the light travels back to the mirror where it is reflected toward the front in parallel beams.

 

These things can get HOT so be careful with them. check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CPdv8qVTzk and

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/559356268/solar_cigarette_lighter_eco_friendly_gadgets.html

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im sure to get flamed for this but ive read some of the posts here and while there are some good ideas i question the long term sustainability of it all... let me 1st tell who i am 37 m usmc infantry instructor who now is an rn.. id like to think i have some abilities to hold my own when it came to survival.. i know how to make a fire without a lighter.. i know how to distill water be it with the sun or a parabolic mirror heat boil etc etc i know how to use the sun to tell direction make a sundial make weapons and im sure that i would have SOME real world preparations for defense night vision scope on a cross bow is my weapon of choice HOWEVER that is all 2nd or 3rd or 4th choice

 

my questioning of this board is i see most people on here (in my opinion) are taking the wrong stance as a whole...you are coming from the mindset of "me and my family against the world" and id have to disagree with that mentality... you can have your ar15 and learn jiu jitsu and have 300lbs of rice and enough to water and plants saved up to last you 20 years but all it takes is one ambush to end all your preparations in vain ..i see most people on here talking about how they will run away from the chaos of the world to sail their boats to deserted islands in the carribean and desalinate water and live off the land "me and mine against the world" mentality

 

i have another option......that i dont see much of.... HELP EVERYONE... dont give your stuff away GIVE KNOWLEDGE away... have something worth bartering...thats how society is reestablished to begin with isnt it? bartering system? people working together as a whole instead of each person for them selves..... combine your skills and things of value with another person.... openly invite newbies in...in the event of total end of civilization as we know it... why not have something worth bartering give knowledge and establish a small micro community that will grow and have people working together so you dont have to worry about hiding your mini farm of potatoes

 

ill tell my plan... im stockpiling yes but only (well mainly) stock piling reverse osmosis kits... water treatment systems ..making a HUGE parabolic mirror to boil large amounts of water for a massive distiller..so that it can sustain water for a large amount of people... and when i see someone who is dehydrated ..takin them in under my wing.. (yes for a price..i give water you now become x needed service..be it fishing security and let the community grow each person freely being invited to join with acceptance that they will provide for the whole...teach people how to survive and how to contribute to the community if they dont already know how... to quote my fav tv show... "we can either live together or die alone" most peoples plans are to survive in isolation away from everyone else ...mine is different... reestablish the community ... safety is in numbers my friends and what is the point of living at all if you and your family is hunkered down in your bunker eating rice and bugs

 

my point is... make yourself too valuable to not be welcomed in... and teach everyone how to survive ... i can tell you now my plan ... have a couple weeks worth of food... some well thought out means of protection.. handgun that can be hidden to seem vulnerable..cross bow nightscope for stealth... just enought to survive the first month...but then the goal is to reestablish and be "marketable" i will have multiple reverse osmosis kits parabolic mirror destiller and market myself as having the ability to provide many many people with safe drinking water and knowledge and try to begin rebuilding and establish a "mini government"

 

And who will be in charge of this "mini government"? Many of us do not like the head of this one. There is no perfect world and you may not like the government that you create. Once you create it you no longer control it, unless you are a dictator or King. What if all of your citizens decide to vote you off the island?

 

Most of us would like to be FREE without some government telling us what our religion has to provide to causes which we do not believe in. Also I believe that we should keep government out of our personal affairs.

 

I know that I have asked this question previously but was not really satisfied with the answer. Would you please indulge an old man with another answer?

Edited by VIS 9

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Well whoever was voted as the leader would be. I have no intention on becoming the Bahamian hitler or Napoleon. Im sure some rudimentary "constitution" would be drawn up. Amended things added and changed. Believe it or not we humans thrive in structure as long as its fair equal and just. If I got voted off the very island that I started so be it I'd leave and start again. How many of us can say out modern system has ALWAYS treated them fairly? Nothing is perfect. My overall point is there is safety in numbers. We all know this. So wouldn't it make better sense that you are more safe in a unified community of a couple hundred vs you and 2 other families. I'm no genius and I can tell you now if I was in a small motorcycle gang of 20 and we were all starving I'd attack the group of 3 or 4 families over the group that out. Numbered us 10 to 1. It's just my opinion that safety is in numbers but I mean higher numbers closer to 100 and up not 10

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Well whoever was voted as the leader would be. I have no intention on becoming the Bahamian hitler or Napoleon. Im sure some rudimentary "constitution" would be drawn up. Amended things added and changed. Believe it or not we humans thrive in structure as long as its fair equal and just. If I got voted off the very island that I started so be it I'd leave and start again. How many of us can say out modern system has ALWAYS treated them fairly? Nothing is perfect. My overall point is there is safety in numbers. We all know this. So wouldn't it make better sense that you are more safe in a unified community of a couple hundred vs you and 2 other families. I'm no genius and I can tell you now if I was in a small motorcycle gang of 20 and we were all starving I'd attack the group of 3 or 4 families over the group that out. Numbered us 10 to 1. It's just my opinion that safety is in numbers but I mean higher numbers closer to 100 and up not 10

 

No, I think that I'll pass on this idea. In Vietnam I saw a small force take down a much larger force with no problem. If I had a problem I would rather call SNAKE and not worry with a bunch of other folks who I do not know if I can trust.

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No, I think that I'll pass on this idea. In Vietnam I saw a small force take down a much larger force with no problem. If I had a problem I would rather call SNAKE and not worry with a bunch of other folks who I do not know if I can trust.

 

Not only can a small, well-trained and cohesive group hold up incredibly well in combat, having a group of 100 or more from the outset invites tremendous logistical problems. Where does everybody live? Who makes rules and enforces them, and who arbitrates disputes over limited resources? How do you locate or create enough food and clean water to sustain the group through lean times? How do you get everyone in/out safely if you have to relocate? How quickly can a large group respond to sudden danger? ... and so on.

 

After TSHTF, there will likely be a lot of scrambling no matter how good your preps were. Planning and supplying adequately for every contingency is just not going to happen. But where a smaller group can adapt, move, and adjust with a certain amount of fluidity, a big group simply can't - sort of the difference between turning a speedboat and turning a cruise ship. Smaller groups who perhaps make alliances with similar nearby groups will be much better off than one large group to start with, IMO.

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I agree with Vic9 and OC..

smaller group,3 person teams,5 person teams,out and about..

25 max for small camps.

have a couple other camps near by to trade information and goods with,if need be back each other up.

 

So we are talking about sitting up a Clan "Scottish" style village and camps..

Familys!!!;)

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Surviving TEOTWAWKI will be a little like a war and will have to be done in stages. Each stage will require different approaches and strategies. When it first goes down, whether it is a social, cultural, economic or natural caused collapse there will be a total collapse.

 

When there are more people than there is food, water and even the other basic necessities like medicines and sewage treatment you will need to hide SOMEWHERE until things slow down. At first it will be a little like trying to get out of a burning theater and mostly every man for himself. Your BEST bet is to get up quietly and leave the second you smell smoke. If you wait too long then you can’t expect civilized behavior and dieing a charitable death won’t do anyone a bit of good.

 

You can’t help a person when they are panicking. If you swim out to someone that is drowning and offer to help them swim back to shore…they will climb on you and drown your silly ass. This happens every year dozens of times. I was a lifeguard when I was a kid and the first thing they tell you is to NOT get to close to someone. You swim out and toss them a life ring or a rope. If you don’t have this then you need to get behind them on their back and half drown them until they relax for you.

 

Once the initial phase is done there will be fewer people and those that made it will be a little less freaked out to deal with. At this point I agree with you and it will be time to start rebuilding a functional society. The length of time between the collapse and this stage will be determined by what caused it, where you live and what kind of resources your area offers. Let’s face it, things are NOT going to get good in the megalopolises like NYC and LA for YEARS. Most will have to die or leave and those that stay are going to be some mean rascals and best left alone.

 

Rural areas that already have some farming/ranching going on will recover a little faster one the refugees are dealt with. We will have to fall back to almost the stone ages for a little while even there. When the tractors stop there just won’t be enough draft animals to work the kind of acreage that would be needed to feed a very large group.

 

Those on the coast will be a little better off because fishing will actually be a better source of food than farming until we get the animals, harnesses and implements for farming again. That’s going to take years, maybe decades. Hungry people will EAT the damn horses if given a chance. There was a REAL reason they used to hang horse thieves. Without animals or mechanical replacements farming is a VERY labor intensive sort of labor and almost hand to mouth. A Garden might feed a family it will NOT feed a bunch of refugees.

 

Water isn’t a problem, you did as people did for centuries and dig a well. This is another labor intensive project and you won’t have water for every fool to waste. I’ll offer you a drink, refill your canteen and send you on your way. I can’t see any way that you could have a group of more than about 50 without huge problems arising. The sanitation issue alone will be a fulltime job.

 

Cultures that didn’t use draft animals in agriculture or herding them for meat all had a common feature…they were most often cannibals! Because of the current PC concerns they don’t talk about it a lot but the Aztecs and probably the Anasazi were cannibalistic societies. The Aztecs cut out their enemies hearts and offered them and the blood to their gods then the body was rolled down the side of the pyramid where it was butchered and eaten. That was the only way that they could have maintained the size population centers they had. Neither had animal assisted farming nor were they herders. Their protean had to come from somewhere.

 

The study of ancient cultures is all about feeding your people at the expense of others. A people would do well, their population would grow and pretty soon they had to find a way to feed more mouths than their land could support. We will return to that real fast unless we can stabilize things ASAP. Understand, no birth control means population growth unlike we’ve seen in most of our lives. Disease will do some part of controlling things but it is never enough.

 

We will need to start at the family level then to the clan level and finally to some sort of tribal grouping or things will just keep getting worse. The first stage got us past the panic and the initial die off but the second stage will determine where we go from there.

 

Whether you like it or not, people haven’t changed a bit in thousands of years. In the end the winners will be those willing to TAKE what they need from those too weak to protect it. The Romans were all over the place, The British covered the entire world. The USA was a sweet theory but I don’t think we will make 300 years. Instead of TAKING what we wanted and ruling through power and fear we tried to buy our peace with food we gave away. We fought for others freedom then let them do as they wished. We fought for them twice in Europe. France REALLY appreciated it and they SHOW their appreciation every chance they get. They hate us and will pull us down if they can.

 

The US and Americans since WW2 have made the same mistakes over and over. We win the battles then lose the war. Over and over we have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by not being willing to finish the deal. After TEOTWAWKI a LOT of Americans will continue this trend I’m afraid. You can’t buy friends and the only way that you can make peace with an enemy is kill him.

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z0vis and oregon... i guess its an opinionated thing and just as opinionated as the location you think would be best suited to help you survive in the case of shtf or total collapse for a long extended time.... some people may chose mountain, desert, but for my concerns if there is a total collapse i am relocated to a small island in the bahamas... ive tried to think of every issue that there is... and one of these islands seems to fit the bill... doubt the ocean would ever run out of food... safety would be improved as most of these small cays (smaller island) are surrounded in sharp corals and only 3-5 feet deep way off the banks so larger ships cannot get close to the bank... so if was an attacking force theyd either have to swim through shark infested waters or be in small boats... either way the terrain makes attack more difficult... and i think that for my situation holding down one of these small islands with 100 or so people would be very difficult for someone to take over however with everything there are drawbacks ...mine is water/ desalination of saltwater.. food would be plentiful...safety in numbers plus the general location makes it difficult hence why the pirates holed up on these islands and naval fleets from spain and england had very difficult times overtaking them.. but i cant seem to figure out the best way to supply desalinated water to 100 people... cant decide between big fresnel lens boil/destill or huge huge solar still clear plastic tent thing over tidal pool

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Danm has a good point!

"After TEOTWAWKI a LOT of Americans will continue this trend I’m afraid. You can’t buy friends and the only way that you can make peace with an enemy is kill him. "

 

Most in America think they can earn friends and trust by "Giving"!Its what we have been told in Church and the Goverment!Better to give!

 

But they never cover the "Al Capone" theroy..I will do what ever it takes to keep what is mine!!

 

Its being going on for a long time.

 

"Scholars often note that Machiavelli glorifies instrumentality in statebuilding - an approach embodied by the saying that "the ends justify the means." Violence may be necessary for the successful transfer of power and introduction of new legal institutions. Force may be used to eliminate political rivals, to coerce resistant populations, and to purge previous rulers who will inevitably attempt to regain their power. Machiavelli has become infamous for this political advice, ensuring that he would be remembered in history as an adjective, "Machiavellian."

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z0vis and oregon... i guess its an opinionated thing and just as opinionated as the location you think would be best suited to help you survive in the case of shtf or total collapse for a long extended time.... some people may chose mountain, desert, but for my concerns if there is a total collapse i am relocated to a small island in the bahamas... ive tried to think of every issue that there is... and one of these islands seems to fit the bill... doubt the ocean would ever run out of food... safety would be improved as most of these small cays (smaller island) are surrounded in sharp corals and only 3-5 feet deep way off the banks so larger ships cannot get close to the bank... so if was an attacking force theyd either have to swim through shark infested waters or be in small boats... either way the terrain makes attack more difficult... and i think that for my situation holding down one of these small islands with 100 or so people would be very difficult for someone to take over however with everything there are drawbacks ...mine is water/ desalination of saltwater.. food would be plentiful...safety in numbers plus the general location makes it difficult hence why the pirates holed up on these islands and naval fleets from spain and england had very difficult times overtaking them.. but i cant seem to figure out the best way to supply desalinated water to 100 people... cant decide between big fresnel lens boil/destill or huge huge solar still clear plastic tent thing over tidal pool

 

Like I said before, enjoy your life, I am going to pass.

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