Bad self defense advice in the wonderful book When All Hell Breaks Loose

[antonyneal 12]

I like this book it is great apart from his "experts" advice on unarmed combat. I am light years from being a expert in unarmed defense but I train Muay Thai and Judo as well as being afan of sports like Kickboxing Muay Thai Judo and MMA.

 

The "expert" implies that a kick to the knee has a good chance of breaking said knee despite the fact that in kick boxing Muay Thai and mma kicks to the knee are completely legal often utilized by very strong professional's and they almost never result in a TKO or a broken any thing. He state's that a open palm strike under then chin will break a neck. This is what made me realize he had no clue. Bas Rutten was 205 pounds of lean muscle a champion that specialized in that technique, he utilized it numerous times in almost every fight and never broke a single neck in his 13 year career.

 

The "expert" poo poo's cage fightings application in street self defense but when ever a rare story surfaces about a professional cage fighter getting in a altercation the result is never the cage fighter was easily brutalised. Small men like Urijah Faber have managed to survive assault by many armed men at the same time because of the skills toughness and physical fitness developed through a career in cage fighting. Mma might not be a perfect system for self defense but if you look at the case studies it clearly has a good track record.

 

But the two most egregious crime's of the "expert" where telling people that do not need to spar or join a gym. Training as a complete novice with no qualified supervision will create bad technique that compounds on more bad technique.

 

Drills have there place but there is no substitute for sparing. I have seen guys apply perfect technique in a drill but when they get in the ring with a fully resisting opponent they cant execute until they have done it some times hundreds of times on a fully resisting opponent.

 

If your number one priority is learning to defend your self my advice is this, I am just throwing it out there to see what people think. Go to a reputable mma gym train at least twice a week until you have proven your competent in the basic application of the following skills against a fully resisting opponent.

 

Jab, Cross, Hook, leg kick, elbow slash, foot work for managing range, keeping your hands up, blocking punch's with your arms, pummeling for under hooks, pummeling for full Thai clinch, knees to the body from Thai clinch, at least one take down from clinch, a double leg take down, sprawl, a rear naked choke and one other basic submission, transitioning from side control to mount, ground and pound from mount.

 

Once you have those skills going to Krav Maga class's which include sparring will be helpful for learning about situation specific skills and approaches to fighting as long as you maintain your basics.

 

Also remember that while being a perfect physical specimen in terms of speed strength balance endurance and flexibility wont always win you the fight it defiantly helps so do your best to strive for higher goals in all aspects of fitness.

 

If any one wants to disagree agree or comment on any thing I have said I would enjoy the feed back.

Edited May 11, 2012 by antonyneal

[NavyVet_77 13]

Im not a pro fighter in anything. Just some wrestling/sparing will in the Navy. I've only been in a couple fights my whole life. I'd be going for those soft vulnerable spots (Neck, BACK of Knee, temple, balls, kidney) trying to make my escape.

[juzcallmesnake 1,514]

how many fights you been in?

 

nuff said.

[101matt 17]

There are some good points made about "Training'' and we all know that BOOK smarts is just that!

 

So get togeather with some friends and practic a take down or 2 to get the self-confidence you need to use it..

 

For myself i had two brothers that were 9 and 10 years older,and they teased me a bit and held me down when ever I got on there nerves.

I learned at a young age that a parry knife was an equaliser!!!

At 21 and being 6ft 4 and 220 lbs and just getting out of military some scores were setteled...

 

Life teaches us many things!!!!

I still carry STEEL...

So get some experence,and get familliar with BODY contact and practic!!!

oops sorry about ranting its friday and Im in the mood!!!

LMAO

[juzcallmesnake 1,514]

101matt

 

your my kind of ranter LOL

[DocWalt81 10]

In a real life or death fight, your do whatever you have to. Bite off nose, rip off ears, grab and twist balls, whatever it takes. As long as you dont loose, you win.

[awake 10]

the only way a kick to the knee is going to possibly going to break the knee would be a down forced stomp to the side of the knee. The knee would need to move to the side past 12 or 15 degrees to cause injury. after many years of soccer i can tell you i have survived 100's of kicks to the front, side and rear of the knees. I may have had a few bruises but nothing that would stop an attack. Hell of a way to break your foot.

[awake 10]

In a real life or death fight, your do whatever you have to. Bite off nose, rip off ears, grab and twist balls, whatever it takes. As long as you dont loose, you win.

 

gouge a eye with your finger. blindness and pain. Time enough for you to escape.

[juzcallmesnake 1,514]

back in the day I would tell the idiot I was going to wrap a cue stick around their head

then I would swing and strike them in the ball of the ankle it was effective.

 

big people do not like having their foot bones rearranged.

[Talvela 10]

back in the day I would tell the idiot I was going to wrap a cue stick around their head

then I would swing and strike them in the ball of the ankle it was effective.

 

big people do not like having their foot bones rearranged.

 

Love it!!!

[Dangerwolfe 10]

Been in some fights for sure, but not recently thankfully and none life or death.

 

Took a year of Progressive Street Combat which combined all the dirty tricks from various martial arts including boxing/kickboxing, wrestling, muy tay, etc plus knifes, sticks, etc and various combinations thereof, with tons of sparing against individuals and multiple attackers, from the ground, in a chair, in the dark....just all kinds of stuff. Most of my class were already black belts in something else like Kung Fu, Tai kwon do, etc.....all of them said taking this class was like starting over. Got knocked out a couple times myself...instructor kept a wheel chair handy and we used it on several occasions....

 

Some basic concepts I learned:

 

- Always avoid fights if you have the option; this is coming from my instructor with a 7th degree BB in Kung fu and various BB in other arts....toughest guy I ever met.

- A real fight is NOT a sporting event; there is no concept of fair, anything goes. This is the problem with most martial arts, they teach you RULES!

- Always fight dirty including biting, corneal flicks, stamping on the toes, balls, etc.

- ALWAYS strike first when you feel a fight coming on.

- Kicking someone's ass is like chopping down a tree, it's probably going to take many clean hits/stabs/bullets before he falls.

- The toughest guy off his balance moving backwards is as helpless as anybody.

- A stick is better than a fist, a knife is better than a stick, a gun is better than a knife and running someone over with a fast moving vehicle is better than all three.....hence, go right to the top with the most lethal option, if you have a superior weapon in reach use it.

- NEVER underestimate your opponent with regards to body type, size, race, physical condition, perceived skill level, etc.

- It's not the dog in the fight that wins, its the FIGHT IN THE DOG, seen it many times.

 

Stay safe,

 

Wolfe

[JonM1911 11]

I like this book it is great apart from his "experts" advice on unarmed combat. I am light years from being a expert in unarmed defense but I train Muay Thai and Judo as well as being afan of sports like Kickboxing Muay Thai Judo and MMA.

 

The "expert" implies that a kick to the knee has a good chance of breaking said knee despite the fact that in kick boxing Muay Thai and mma kicks to the knee are completely legal often utilized by very strong professional's and they almost never result in a TKO or a broken any thing. He state's that a open palm strike under then chin will break a neck. This is what made me realize he had no clue. Bas Rutten was 205 pounds of lean muscle a champion that specialized in that technique, he utilized it numerous times in almost every fight and never broke a single neck in his 13 year career.

 

The "expert" poo poo's cage fightings application in street self defense but when ever a rare story surfaces about a professional cage fighter getting in a altercation the result is never the cage fighter was easily brutalised. Small men like Urijah Faber have managed to survive assault by many armed men at the same time because of the skills toughness and physical fitness developed through a career in cage fighting. Mma might not be a perfect system for self defense but if you look at the case studies it clearly has a good track record.

 

But the two most egregious crime's of the "expert" where telling people that do not need to spar or join a gym. Training as a complete novice with no qualified supervision will create bad technique that compounds on more bad technique.

 

Drills have there place but there is no substitute for sparing. I have seen guys apply perfect technique in a drill but when they get in the ring with a fully resisting opponent they cant execute until they have done it some times hundreds of times on a fully resisting opponent.

 

If your number one priority is learning to defend your self my advice is this, I am just throwing it out there to see what people think. Go to a reputable mma gym train at least twice a week until you have proven your competent in the basic application of the following skills against a fully resisting opponent.

 

Jab, Cross, Hook, leg kick, elbow slash, foot work for managing range, keeping your hands up, blocking punch's with your arms, pummeling for under hooks, pummeling for full Thai clinch, knees to the body from Thai clinch, at least one take down from clinch, a double leg take down, sprawl, a rear naked choke and one other basic submission, transitioning from side control to mount, ground and pound from mount.

 

Once you have those skills going to Krav Maga class's which include sparring will be helpful for learning about situation specific skills and approaches to fighting as long as you maintain your basics.

 

Also remember that while being a perfect physical specimen in terms of speed strength balance endurance and flexibility wont always win you the fight it defiantly helps so do your best to strive for higher goals in all aspects of fitness.

 

If any one wants to disagree agree or comment on any thing I have said I would enjoy the feed back.

 

Here's a few things. While I don't know if you have a "good chance" a kick to the front of the knee, delivered correctly, COULD break it. Even if it only damages the ligaments, its a lot harder to kick or even move on a damaged knee. Still you never rely on one thing. As for cage fighting being talked down about, well yea, its cage fighting. The point is that there are rules. Certain shots are not allowed, in a street fight, everything is allowed. That's the idea behind the anti-cage fighting. Though you are correct, I haven't heard of a cage fighter getting his ass handed to him, that could be because the attacker was an idiot.

 

As for not sparring, that's bull. Everything goes out the window when you're losing oxygen. Unless you train over and over and over to the point of moves being second nature, all technique goes out the window. I love sparring, well I love it all really, but sparring lets you see how far you've progressed. I've been training in Krav for 2 years and I still have those "Oh ****" moments when I first get choked. Mainly because I always close my eyes on those drills, makes it more realistic since you don't know when its coming.

 

I would disagree that you have to know stuff before going to a Krav gym. Any Krav gym worth the money will teach you from an off the street novice status to whatever your goal is. I knew some stuff when I started, but I still learned a lot. Krav is all about opportunity and variety. I still, after 2 years, get set in my ways. In fact last night we went over this. Doing stick defense, every time its taught, you block, attack, and take away. Well just because you have the stick, doesn't mean you have to use it. Maybe the stick drops away, then what? Also went over reading body signs to predict sucker punches. One of the instructors is a local SWAT guy, so it helps to get his real world experience on it as well. But he likes those low kicks, so we practice incorporating those into our punches, either before or after. The key is variety and recognizing the openings. The more you practice the more it becomes second nature.

[CombatAppGrp 10]

Yes MMA is perfect for your environment in Competition within the ring. I would like to offer this perspective. Sheriffs Dept. Jailers that were trained in and skilled MMA fighters have been hospitalized while trying Ground Fighting Restraint techniques in the Prisons, because the typical ratio of Inmates vs. Deputies/Corrections Officers is greatly steep 15 Inmates to 1 County Jailer/CO, so for this need you cannot engage in Close Quarters Ground Fighting. The other side of the coin is for Military usage as a Peace Keeping force it works ok, but in the crowded streets of the middle east where the typical ratio of 1 Squad of 10 plus solidiers getting ambushed by 100 + Insurgents in the crowded streets, read the incident that happened in Mogadishu (See Movie BlackHawk Down). This will surely get you killed much quicker while you are mounted on a bad guy or even reverse mounted on a bad guy. This is the current focus of Army and Marine Corps Combatives which is heavily MMA Based.

 

I personally think both branches need to drop their MMA/MCMAP programs and find a better suited system similar to what MarSOC, SOFD-D and Seals are using, but allow this to all troops who will serve in a urban combat environment. My previous work with the Marines as a MAIT was to try and get our new Hand to Hand Combat program taught with the MOUT program since all the techniques mirror and mimic any weapon platform. But as you can see political agenda and connections will prevail no matter if it competes against a superior program.

 

For analysis see my previous post under Mixing it up.

http://www.survivalcache.com/forums/showthread.php?3033-Mix-it-Up

[onetime 39]

its never been a fight. I just hit them and it was over. I've been hurt a lot worse and 100x as often when sparring, for a fact, and hurt people very nearly as bad, with no intent to do so. 

[nigh 0]

On 5/11/2012 at 12:11 AM, antonyneal said:

I like this book it is great apart from his "experts" advice on unarmed combat. I am light years from being a expert in unarmed defense but I train Muay Thai and Judo as well as being afan of sports like Kickboxing Muay Thai Judo and MMA.

 

The "expert" implies that a kick to the knee has a good chance of breaking said knee despite the fact that in kick boxing Muay Thai and mma kicks to the knee are completely legal often utilized by very strong professional's and they almost never result in a TKO or a broken any thing. He state's that a open palm strike under then chin will break a neck. This is what made me realize he had no clue. Bas Rutten was 205 pounds of lean muscle a champion that specialized in that technique, he utilized it numerous times in almost every fight and never broke a single neck in his 13 year career.

 

The "expert" poo poo's cage fightings application in street self defense but when ever a rare story surfaces about a professional cage fighter getting in a altercation the result is never the cage fighter was easily brutalised. Small men like Urijah Faber have managed to survive assault by many armed men at the same time because of the skills toughness and physical fitness developed through a career in cage fighting. Mma might not be a perfect system for self defense but if you look at the case studies it clearly has a good track record.

 

But the two most egregious crime's of the "expert" where telling people that do not need to spar or join a gym. Training as a complete novice with no qualified supervision will create bad technique that compounds on more bad technique.

 

Drills have there place but there is no substitute for sparing. I have seen guys apply perfect technique in a drill but when they get in the ring with a fully resisting opponent they cant execute until they have done it some times hundreds of times on a fully resisting opponent.

 

If your number one priority is learning to defend your self my advice is this, I am just throwing it out there to see what people think. Go to a reputable mma gym train at least twice a week until you have proven your competent in the basic application of the following skills against a fully resisting opponent.

 

Jab, Cross, Hook, leg kick, elbow slash, foot work for managing range, keeping your hands up, blocking punch's with your arms, pummeling for under hooks, pummeling for full Thai clinch, knees to the body from Thai clinch, at least one take down from clinch, a double leg take down, sprawl, a rear naked choke and one other basic submission, transitioning from side control to mount, ground and pound from mount.

 

Once you have those skills going to Krav Maga class's which include sparring will be helpful for learning about situation specific skills and approaches to fighting as long as you maintain your basics.

 

Also remember that while being a perfect physical specimen in terms of speed strength balance endurance and flexibility wont always win you the fight it defiantly helps so do your best to strive for higher goals in all aspects of fitness.

 

If any one wants to disagree agree or comment on any thing I have said I would enjoy the feed back.

you wont be fighting a trained man. Trained men aint a holes. If you're fighting a trained man, it's cause YOU are the A-hole. I've several times kicked men in the knee. It's quite easy to do with a side kick, vs people are are not trained kickers. They have no IDEA from how far away you can kick them or how fast you can do so, how you can fake, spin, block both hands as you kick, etc. I've front kicked a couple of men (standing erect, facing me) in the nose and if I'd focused the blow more than 1/2" deep, they'd have been dead. Cody really messed up asking this bser to write the hand to hand part of his book. If he doens't verify things any better than THAT, it makes me question everything that he says.