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Ammo question

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One combat load minimum for bug out situations (TEOTWAWKI). For me that is 300 rounds 5.56/223, and about 45 rounds pistol, 100 rounds shotty. .22 is so small and light, i would say whatever you can fit would be good, as it will probably be your go to round most of the time for hunting small game. the other rounds will be for defending yourself. Sustained rate of fire for the M-16 ( i use this for reasons of comparison) is between 12-15 well aimed shots per minute. That should be about 20 minutes of continuous fire. If you can't escape with that much time in firing, you are screwed. And during an actual event, you will probably dump rounds way faster than that anyway. I set up for 300 carried TEOTWAWKI in mags. I figure another 100 or so on stripper clips should be good for starters. with regards to pistols, and shotties, the listed amounts may seem low, but i tend to lean in the direction of a good rifle over those firearms. Rifles are more useful in my mind than shotguns or pistols. Longer effective range, larger capacities, can be used as a club if necessary. Even a .22 rifle is preferable to a pistol in my mind. Same reasons. For carry purposes, one magazine loaded (or drum full in a revolver) and one or two magazines in reserve. For home D, I have sixty in Mags for my rifle. Mainly to prepare for a mag failure. not because I should need 60. In reality, home d should need about ten, at most. But why short change. Better to error on the side of more rather than less. Hope this helps.

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No one in a desperate situation wants to get injured:


as they know there is no field hospital and the rest of the rag tag bunch will leave them behind.

especially with lack of medicine and doctors I feel they will change tactics quickly as in

a good looking woman or a kid try to get them to infiltrate and either gain intel or slit your throat.

remember the prisons will either be in full riot or released as who will work for nothing and out side help may

not be available.

I hope that Americans will work through this but it seems that so many are so polarized coming together

will not happen even near me people can't agree on the obvious right from wrong.

If you think it's bad now greed and selfishness will go into over drive many will mentally break down.

Most of us who have been in service will revert to condition yellow ultra cautious.

many in charge will use their authority and manipulate power they can generally not be trusted.

New Orleans is a stark example in a day when money and manpower was available

although it could have been used the state governor and the mayor did not give the fed the right to

enter, the coast guard because they have a different mandate were able to function.

many do not understand states rights and the federal government cannot just force their way in.

a governor can use refuse certain help and rely on their own system the delay caused problems.

and no state official took any responsibility they all passed the buck....


roving bands will attack and strip anyone that cannot defend themselves do not believe me what

do you think home invasions are gangs will feel this is their moment to overtake the law and control.

for a time complete kaos could be days could be longer but if no pay and congested hospitals.

what man with a family will risk his life as they will be outnumbered 100 to 1 and every second people will

be asking the same questions over and over and over....if there is turmoil how will food and water be

delivered you will need a radio to hear broadcasts so not to waste time or resources and leave your

family undefended.

my reason for this heads up is cost, durability, effectiveness and weight

so my main advice is a 10/22 and a MkIII pistol in 22lr also they have

factory 25 round mags for the rifle 10 round mads for the pistol and use

only factory off brands can have issues


buy CCI HI velocity

40grn copper plated solid because the extra power and weight of this round insures function round nose helps in feeding copper cladding reduces smut.

remember crotch lips and toes that's where a 22 goes.

relative few people who should have crotch protection have it much less

a herd of gang bangers or whatever and as soon as they see their home

boy grabbing his bloody crotch they will be looking for easier pickings

especially if you do it again you wont have to threaten or be stupid and

yell "I got a gun" if you shoot one of them they will figure it out..



A 22 is not a barricade assault weapon different tactics if you want to

impress get a L.A.R. in 7.62 and drag that heavy chunk of iron around.

I can carry a 1k rounds and both pistol and rifle & 4x scope and a knife for

the same weight value, your not storming the castle keep your trying to

defend your apartment or regular home.

If you have the best of everything and the 4K square foot home better

have a squad to protect it.


.223 and 5.56 ARE .22 caliber you are not going to be shooting at 500

yards in 90% of instances your trying to survive not make war your

defending your property and family your "shoot don't shoot window" where you feel threatened is going to be well within 100 yards I can hit an orange all day long, and with practice you can to.

they do not kick muzzle jump is minimal sound is minimal in the rifle pistol a bit louder.


Learn the basic sight picture go to the local range.

optics are great but use a scope base or rings that allow for use of both

iron sights and your scope learn Iron sights first.

a scope any yahoo can use.


a basic 4x {4power} scope is good you want one that has 1/4 click

adjustment of 1/4 of an inch at a certain distance.

some new scopes one have mounting rails built on so you can add a laser

and a flashlight, but both of these show your position so unless you got

them dead to rights don't initiate them.

I doubt this but just because someone walks in with their hands up

does not mean someone is not out there waiting for you to expose yourself.


Do not buy a huge 6 x 24 power scope and a put a 6 Dcell mag light and a

200 dollar 15mw green laser on it you have then turned a nimble weapon in to a anchor that hangs on everything and have wasted your money.


Do not attempt to intimidate it does not work against real bad guys

but chunks flying off them does.

Some bad guys blood running out of mouth teeth and ears and still cursing you spitting blood with every word and swearing they are going to kill you

BELIEVE them and take care of business...


wax which is used in some 22's to lubricate causes crud to stick and build

up quicker also attracting sand and dirt so i never use them.

Add a bore snake

{a rope pull through barrel cleaner has a bore brush in it } can roll it into a small size, a stiff tooth brush and a can or bottle of rem oil and a knife

with tools like a leatherman with the proper bits to tighten anything that might

come loose.


In short no matter how bad someone thinks they are they do not want to

be injured.

A 22lr has 12 inches of penetration the 22 has

dropped more people and animals than any other round on earth.

And FYI you can never have enough 22's and they store easy.

If you live where there are dangerous or very large game a 12 gauge

that can shoot slugs into a basket ball or better at 100 yards

shotguns can have scopes too.

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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I keep 4000 rounds loaded with an extra 2000 in reloading components for all my centerfires and 8,000 .22Lr but it is spread out in cache's and my hide. On the surface it is excessive but in a worse case scenario it is going to have to last me and mine the rest of our lives

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I hear you Warrior7r. I'm not comfortable giving exact inventory but I stock heavy, both because Plan A is to bug in and because I like to shoot every chance I get. My goal is to reach a set level and maintain, becase if the SHTF, I don't plan on looting a battlefield for more ammo as I see many suggest. I'm no expert, but a person could get hurt doing that (sarcasm on full force).


Not to derail the thread, but am I the only one who has noticed the steady (and sometimes not so steady) rise in ammo prices? I stock up as much as I can afford because it just makes economic sense to buy now, before the prices really get out of control. I am not a huge Chris Rock fan but one thing he said stuck with me. I paraphrase, but basically, effective gun control can be achieved by making bullets $10,000. Then, you really have to be desperate or mad to use one.

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Again, how much shooting you think the situation will demand. A minor disagreement with LivingGray; he said

First: Only you can decde when you have enough. When you do have enough, go out and buy twice that much. If you don't use it for food or protection, you can use it for barter.

I think you buy twice what you need and add 10% because Murphy was a bloody optimist!


Seriously, I tend to stock more of my defensive rounds than I do of my hunting and shotgun rounds. I have a lot of handgun ammo just because I practice a lot to keep current with an inadequate weapon. (not a caliber comment - the handgun is almost NEVER the best weapon for the job. It is only the one you can most likely have with you.) So how much?


1500 of your defensive ammo with a new buy at 1000.

1000 handgun for daily carry with a new buy at 750.

2500 .22's min, buy at 2000 (usually have more and shoot a lot)

500 handgun not daily carry buy at 250

500 hunting rifles buy at 400

250 Heavy rifle - buy at 200

250 shot gun (per gauge) buy at 200


Those numbers are per caliber/gauge. That is what I am comfortable with based on my location and estimate of what TSHTF and TEOTWAWKI will look like. That is also ammo acquired over decades of shooting. If I was starting from nothing I'd go this way - the basic combat load for the Army back in my day was 200 rounds for the rifle and about 25 rounds for a handgun. The troops issued shotguns carried 25 rounds as well if memory serves. Given that, I'd buy about 50 rounds more than the old basic load out with the gun and then buy 2 for 1 as I used them. That shouldn't break the bank but if it does, get 100 rifle and 50 for handgun and shotgun and build from there. As for .22, get 500 in a big box, and build from there. I am a fan of the .22 for a ton of reasons and shoot them frequently so I have a lot.

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I don't like buying anything other then # 8 shot for trap or 22lr at the local sporting goods store because it's just to pricy. Usually I wait until the gun show vendors come along or drive out of state just to get semi reasonable prices as long as the value of the dollar continues to drop prices on everything will go up.

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California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed AB 962 yesterday. Consequently, effective February 1, 2011, Californians will have to provide complete personal information, plus a thumbprint, to buy pistol ammunition. In addition, the bill requires that all pistol ammo sales be “face to face”. This could effectively ban mail-order ammunition sales in California. Cabela’s, a leading outdoor retailer, has told customers that it will stop shipping ammo to California if AB 962 became law.


Though AB 962 was designed to control pistol ammunition purchases, it will also affect rifle ammunition sales because California law defining pistol ammo is broad and vague. Basically, AB 962 could be extended to virtually any ammo which has ever been used in a pistol. That certainly will include 22LR, 22 Magnum, .221 Fireball, and .223 Rem for starters.


y'all keep screwing around and you will be blessed with a hazmat fee as well as all this just that ups will have to see and swipe your ID and have you sign and with technology a fingerprint ain't no big deal.

or take your pic.


go ahead tell me it will never happen here LMAO


if you do not have cases for each cal your so screwed.


when I was a kid I could buy cigarettes and smoke them chewing tobacco and snuff

ammo and airplane glue spray paint and switch blades could be carried until 1964 or 65

i have carried a gun on a plane hand it to the pilot {a courteous gesture} and he gave it back

at the end of the flight and carried it through the airport and to my hotel.

no mandatory seat belt law could smoke in a movie theater in any restaurant in a train plane bus or cab

had a drivers license at 15 owned my own truck had a job could hunt and fish in my own county till

16 without a license on my families property any time in limits & season.

carried a gun to school during hunting season

a bull whip, hot shot, lariat rope, fencing pliers and tools in my truck

and a pocket knife on me.

drink a alcoholic beverage wile driving if you were 18 but not be drunk.

and most of the time a pistol in the glove box no CCW needed.

at 16 you were considered responsible for your actions and knew it.

I never considered these as offensive but for sport and fun protection from crazed or rabid animals.


I went to the barber {not a hair stylist} to get a trim I had my AR in the rifle rack as I was going to the range after, a woman was waiting with her 2 kids said that's terrible why do you Texas people carry

your guns like that I could tell she was a yankee I told her if you don't like it carry your arse back

where you come from I did not ask you to come here and we don't need you, nor did I ask

for your opinion.


going from that till Now I feel like I am in prison not free.


I feel you should do what you think your big enough to do and we the judge and jury should

be able to hang you if its what the law requires I am tired of some lawyer trying to make a name

for themselves butting in to a jury's decision or preventing evidence unless not part of the case.

I want all the evidence to the case I do not sign a contract with half the pages covered.

and I do not like any circumstantial evidence without a few pieces of real evidence.

with today's science it leave little doubt we should use it and quit using the conviction rate as a

D.A.'s worth I want justice not legalism every person has the right to a honest trial, fair is dictated by

who is running the show and as I see it it is not the people .

I also do not like a judge changing the sentence after the jury agreed to it.

If they are going to do what they want why waste my time to add validity to a kangaroo court.


during my time no where in the U.S. was any one shot or killed on school property to my recollection.

a few knife fights mostly in the big cities New York L.A. Chicago.

we sure had some great fist fights though split lips black eyes and loose teeth and broken noses.

and no one went to jail, got licks for sure and suspension maybe.

many did not want their baby spanked so now they got a criminal record that's a real improvement.

oh but it is sealed yes but it is there so now what will someone think.


so now tell me how free you are?

LMAO your hands are tied they got the noose around your neck

and your on the trap door and many can not get off their cell phone to notice.

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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There are a few sporting goods shops that are really out of touch with the new ammo law and that's where I shop. They look at your ID and say thank you sir you are of legal age to buy this. but i have encountered the thumb print to buy ammo form I usually say forget it ill just drive to Nevada to buy ammo. I don't mind hurting china mart sales.

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lol we just had the honor system where the guy behind the counter would ask if I'm buying the 22 ammo for a handgun or rifle and check my age accordingly. That always seemed strange.

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If money is tight , and when isn't it, you can go to Wally world and pick up a hundred shotgun shells and 500 .22's for less than forty five dollars. That is not a lot of ammo or top shelf defensive rounds, but it is some reassurance that you can make a fight of it or at least scare the heck out the bad guys.

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great posts by all as usual


I just like to explain to the all those who view these posts that you do not have to be wealthy

to get prepared.

bought over time you can accomplish a good survival cache.


we have a tendency to forget some do not have deep pockets sometimes you can make people

quit before they start if they think they have no way to acquire the items we talk about.


the only prerequisite for a "poor mans assault weapon" a semi auto 22 long rifle I like the Ruger 10/22.

It needs to have a box magazine that holds no less than ten rounds and you need

a minimum of 5 extra magazines factory magazines off brands can be unreliable.


and no less than 2K rounds make sure they are the same brand and bullet type I like

CCI copper plated round nose 40 grain bullet hi velocity 1235 feet per second.


a hand gun in the same caliber and your in business, at least you won't feel naked.


a good stock of canned goods and dry grains flour etc.


if you look at my previous post you will see lists

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I basically agree. My one difference is that I think that if your rifle is a .22, then your handgun should be in a larger caliber. A solid .38 special unless you are in bear country and then a .357Mag. Either is usually available used for about the price of a new .22 pistol. It has the advantage of being protection up close and personal from game too large for the .22. I consider my hand gun to be my "where the heck did that (insert least favorite predator here) come from and how did he get so bloody close" gun. For coyotes on down that .22 would probably work, but for larger wild dogs, wolves, boar, bigger cats etc. the .22 is a tad light I think.

Still take that .22, a good revolver and add a single shot shotgun in .410 or 20 ga and you have a decent 3 gun survival battery that will hand fully 90% of the things you are likely to encounter. If you run into the 10% then you better be able to E & E out of the area.

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You have a very valid point Capt Bart


a 357 would be the best as it shoots both and prices seem not to be much different.

I love the load data for it up to 200 grain lead bullets and I have loaded 85 grain

.380 bullet and patched a sub cal used round ball mmp rounds, shot shells, some other "tests"

hey even wax bullets use to do practice shooting a target in the fireplace with primer loads.

I have scavenged 9MM and loaded it primer powder and bullet in a 38 case and it worked fine.

a little warm but I shoot in rod that can handle warm loads.


as I tell people a gun can fire anything once but will you still have your face


I have a dump pouch and HKS speed loaders so I can reload my 38/357 and 9MM in autos are notorious

for going where no man has gone before or i figure if i find them, those lost socks from the washer

to the dryer will be near by.

although in my other posts I do mention that those living in areas of dangerous game need to

have what it takes to drop them.


the one place to incapacitate anything is eyes no matter how large you got to have nerve

but you do not have a choice you can increase your chances in a tree or behind something

but an eye strike produces enough pain to confuse their attack even if momentary then go for

the other. of course this is the last thing you may do on this earth but at least you tried.

and only in defense of your life

if they only have one eye this trick has been tried before or your aiming at the wrong end.

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but an eye strike produces enough pain to confuse their attack even if momentary


Agreed but I am certain that I, at least, am not capable of calmly facing down a charging bear (whose doing 40 MPH remember) at 15 yards and placing a round into its eye. There are those that can but I am simply not that cool a customer. The same rule applies to shots into the ear canal. Can it be done? Yep, I've even heard stories from folks I believe that say they've seen it or the evidence of it. Can I do it? I doubt it. What if the beastie doesn't present an ear or eye shot? Accuracy is important but I have a visceral reaction to the thought of being eaten. I want enough gun to break a shoulder or if placed against the side of the critter to get through and into something vital. That gives me a fighting chance at least.


As to the "warm" loads. I don't disagree with what you are doing. I would place a very strong caution to everyone.

If you do not KNOW (remember you ARE playing "You Bet Your Life" here) that YOUR gun will handle your intended load (even if it is a commercial load) get some expert help prior to putting it in the chamber. I know guys who really work hard to come up with very accurate, high velocity rounds. It is how they enjoy their hobby and more power (or should it be powder?) to them. I like to shoot, not fool around with experimental loads. I don't think I have the equipment (these guys usually have some rather expensive gear) or the know how to push a firearm up to its maximum pressures. Therefore, when I load it is usually middle range numbers for accurate shooting. 50,000 PSI (for comparison, a great white has a bite force of 4,000 PSI, T-Rex had about 12,000, and Megalodon up to about 40,000) is nothing to play with unless you absolutely know what you are doing.


Be very, very sure you know (no BS here - KNOW) what you are doing. The limb, face, eye, life you save will likely be your own.

Edited by Capt Bart

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Knowledge is what I am attempting to impart in my posts

I have seen very little out of the box information that would be needed in a real situation

apparently unless your wealthy there's no need to be on this blog

as you will always have everything your heart desires at your finger tips even after TEOTWAWKI.

If all I am suppose to do is pass off reprinted pablum to infants or quaint remarks that have no real

education or usable information then pardon me my knowledge is vast and practical much I will not

divulge for obvious reasons if they are not obvious then what can I say.


I dangle bits of information to temp the minds of those who may look beyond the pale of

useless information and seek alternate resources and way to accomplish what ever needs to be

done and while the internet is available information is free and can be logged to be used another day.


22 rim fire can be reloaded

any case can be adapted to some other caliber

what are the similarities of 30-06 and 45 acp? and about 37 other calibers

bullet molds can be made from wood wood can be used as bullets.


nothing is new most ideas are retreads of what minds have conceived hundreds to even thousands

of years ago


Insinuation of danger is not supported, and I do tire of having to give a disclaimer before every

statement I think I will cut and paste a carbon copy warning for every statement I make if they are

going to be picked apart


I know my business and yes many have a faint heart I think I have touched on that numerous times.

the experiment with the 9MM was not a risk I knew the manufacturer

and the ballistics it was researched and then started, it equaled a +P loading

the firearm was more than capable as I know that with a certainty.

If this forum is about survival then these are facts that would be of use in an

extreme situation and have been used by many, wood bullets? remember

sub caliber munitions, subsonic many others there are things I could tell you that

would tweak your memory but I digress.


these were created by people with a specific need in times of disaster.

many things outlawed today were made by men without degrees in engineering but,

we have progressed to a point that unless its smooth bright and manufactured in a plant

with engineers Q&A and a laboratory and full machine shop and indoor range then

it is dangerous, in dangerous times there will not be the availability of such luxuries.

Man as he always had in the past will have to make do and know certain limitations.

as double based / smokeless powders cannot be used interchangeably with black powder

but black powder can be used in modern guns it is corrosive but none the less a cleaning

with mild soap and water and re cleaning in the normal manner will work in a pinch.


firearms are not magic they are steel bits and pieces

I won't get into it but a local store can provide an idiot with what they need.


and reading my post I did mention a tree or rock even in most police academy's they teach

cover and retreat.

climbing a tree is no defense to bears but is if you keep your head and maintain your weapon

you have a better chance than shaking a leafy limb at the pissed critter.



I have personally watch a person squatting on a rock reload a .308 shell

with a leather pouch of powder, primers and bullets mixed and punch with a rock I was amused

and watched him for quite a while he was dressed in a flapped Tarzan

thong and was barley taller than the rifle a LAR. and no shoes or shirt I was certain he had never

been to school if he even saw one I would have been surprised.


there are loading's that will blow standard or a poor 9MM apart and I have seen them sold

at gun shows they are rare but some dealers have no clue what they are.

I want to see some poor fool use a box of grand dads old 9MM in a high point pistol LMAO


If a man decides to hunt dangerous game he would be a fool if he not the heart

for it and that is where many people are injured or killed every year.

and why they hide in blinds in a tree its good sense but on the way to and from

that's where the danger is.

I see these arm chair Theodore Roosevelt's on safari in air conditioned range rovers

swizzling drinks back at the camp and then having their children shoot something how quaint.


A walk or a run or camping in the wrong area and you can be confronted by many animals.

but the 357 is only for the south even a 44 mag will not do for a moose or a Kodiak or grizzly.

in one instance a polar bear took 3 shots from a 460 Weatherby mag before he piled up.

and they are deceptively quiet for their size.

An elephant can walk right up on you and you would never know it, was there a slight breeze

the slight rustle of leaves cover their movements.


I have shot a magazine +1 of the touted 45 ACP into a hog at 15 feet and I do not miss

often and I did not then.

none of the 230 grain bullets made it more than a few inches in and it was all I had on me.

never made that mistake again

a friend dropped him with a 30-30.


I have listened to drivel on 45ACP for years, against man it is a good caliber,

45LC with 255 grain SWC lead bullets @ 1000+ FPS is much better

against any animal 45 ACP is very dependent on shot placement man is one of the few animals with

a breast square to the face bears have an elliptical chest as most other game that is why

the perfect shot on an animal is a broad side shot.


A mountain lion face on has only a 3 inch kill zone if he is looking at you less

and a 38 SPL takes them out

we like to tree them it gives you a better shot and the dogs keep them distracted


the anatomy of a deer their heart is between their 1 & 3rd ribs and just above the

fore shank and behind the humorous only 1 rib protects it from a broad side shot.

in other words its lower than most think and little protection.


give me an aluminum can and a file and a few choice items I can show you a high tensile

steel is no match for the human mind.


Mcguiver was a TV show I remember laughing but the truth is he was a culmination of

of some actual people who in dire times recognized the importance of certain facts

and ALL manuals that have seen on subjects of survival and covert actions and responses

can be attributed to these men and many unnamed others.


Major Louis Anatole LaGarde & Colonel John T. Thompson these 2 gentlemen had convinced

the powers that be of the time that 45 caliber was the end all be all in 1904 and over a

hundred years people still bray like jackasses the same refrain.

And if that fact was so well known then why did the special services {not forces} go with 357 mag

My question the FN 5.7 @ 2300 FPS I have a tendency to believe it would drop any thing less than

the BIG 5 due to is ballistic coefficient speed and bullet metals


these gentlemen took the dark arts to new levels

Eric Sykes

William Fairbairn

William Donovan wild bill

Colonel Rex Applegate

Col. Anthony Biddle


Everyone squalls and bemoans the virtue of Sun Tzu born in 544 BC

when King David accomplished more miraculous battles 500 years before but because the bible is

considered tripe it is no wonder many have no knowledge of this information.




In short I forgot more than most so called experts know and expert can be taught nothing

they only have interest in making money off their beliefs and having their name hailed above


I give not my name or ask for accolades nor money and I get nit picking I want nothing more than

people to get off the dime and understand there are more ways to skin a cat.

Our fore fathers were not encumbered by too many opinions they just did it.

If everyone thought with such care then modern conveniences would never have been made.

and in never ceases to amaze me that these same people drive after all you have a 1 in 140

chance of not making it home and if you have a motorcycle your on a suicide mission aren't you.

talk about chances.


My advice to everyone is do nothing do not try do not try to learn alternative methods it could be

dangerous. and whatever you do do not buy books hey how do you know

that the person that wrote them knows sh*t form shinola.

food could go bad every heard of ergot? whoooo ptomaine, botulism, hey you could step on a nail

and get lock jaw, hit your wittle head.

water 55 gallons weights 458 pounds that sounds real dangerous wear your hard hat and steel

toed boots may want to take a workers safety course before you do anything and make sure

you have the certificate before you do something as someone may think you don't know what

your doing.

I forgot before you own a gun take a hunters safety course also a security license and then CCW

license so you know what to do if confronted by them bad guys.

and do not carry a gun in a car as if you can't talk on a phone and drive how in the world does

anyone think you can operate a gun and drive OMG!

just wrap yourself in bubble wrap and stay at home OH NO most accidents happen at home on

second thought go to a hotel....



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Every man has to figure out his own salvation. FBI reports on ballistics don't impress me as much as the box of truth. There will be plenty of battle field pickups if you are in the fight. Yes, ammo stored in magazines is convenient. Snake has some very good information and points to be made. Cannot fault his list of mentors, they are some of the best and some of the founders of fighting with a handgun and knife.

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Interesting rant. Since you advocate the beginner not read books I guess that means you knew your list of gun gurus personally. I envy you that as I never had the pleasure of meeting them. It also appears that you think everyone who didn't drop out of school at 17 and run off to war to be ignorant and in my particular case, an idiot. I fear you have insulted idiots the world round. I have always thought, and often told others, experience isn't the best teacher. It is only the most expensive. Learning by experience is often painful, not necessarily the right lessons, and the cost to those who are not lucky enough to actually survive is total. This is not a path I advocate.


In my personal experience, it is easy to overwhelm new preppers with the magnitude of the task or the hardships they face. I really think you often miss the context of the thread. If we are talking main battle rifle then you are talking expensive weapons. If you are talking minimum survival battery your are talking .22 rifle, .357/.38 revolver, and a 20 ga or .410 shotgun. Total price under $500. I really don't understand your anger. I thought I had made clear that I didn't doubt your ability to do what you described. I tried to make clear, and strongly believe, that a new reloader risks life or limb if he goes out and starts playing design engineer on a used pistol. You may know the margin of safety on a Ruger .45ACP but I don't. How many times can you safely fire it at 150% of rated pressure? Once? A hundred times? What is the design pressure for the weapon? I don't know but it is worth your life to be wrong.

What I am personally capable of doing and what I am willing to suggest to someone who does not have my experiences are two widely different things. If you assume the role of mentor by posting suggestions for others, then you bear responsibility for any harm those suggestions cause. To get a young, new prepper hurt or perhaps arrested harms not only him but quite possibly his family. This is a burden I am not willing to assume.

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I was being Facetious about reading I was being annoyed at being sniped at.


survival and ammo are one and the same they cannot be separated in our point

in time a man without a way to reload or convert or make a makeshift arm is at a

distinct disadvantage.


in every event of the people attempting to wrestle power from the government

have seen a police state evolve and military used to oppress the people.


if the recent ammo shortages have not raised the question of how do I feed my iron pet

then these forums are not asking or answering the right questions.

TEOTWAWKI is possible scientists are warning of it these comments of solar flares and EMP's have

happened in the 1920's we were not as tied to technology and electrical appliances

and depressions have lasted for a decade or more.


So how much ammo do you need to last 10 years


And NO I was not able to meet the men of which I spoke.

but having had to READ their writings

I wanted to understand the point of view of these men and if their experiments are the end of

comment and questions then why do companies make numerous calibers.

and some countries police carry a 22 walther ppk still and manage to keep their population

down and i haven't seen rabid charging of them by the citizens yelling hey its only a 22 get him!


We now live in a country with roughly 80% live in cities or urban area so an

argument of a large caliber is not supported more bullets less weight as a BOB will need to be carried

as leaving it with a large population roaming and foraging will lead it to being lost.

so we will most likely all have to make a move to or away from differing problems.

disease lack of food or weather considerations or to join the family or to a group

It is happening now we have an exodus of people loosing their homes and having to go

to friends and family far from where they are now.


this is one of the reason I get frustrated and rant everyone in forums like this says they are

preparing but for what?

the domino theory makes the case that only one event never happens we have hundreds of

examples in our recent history but real history has not been taught because it is ugly

and shows that we are not as civilized as we think and the news papers and shows on TV

show us so often we have become hardened to murder, rape child molestation and kidnapping.

60 years ago you died for these crimes now sentences range from probation to anything less than

swift justice.


The ammo point I believe in more is better history of financial collapse and how we will be impacted

in a very compressed and easy to follow and understand a movie called "the grapes of wrath"

won numerous awards including the academy award for 1941 best this and that also.

WHY because the people that lived it knew it was true they watched it happen.

and many of the comments and thoughts are shown in stark contrast to today's world.

rent it or buy it and watch it carefully and you will see why things changed to the way they are now.

and they will return to the way they were when trouble comes because its all we have in

our arsenal to curb the breakdown of society.

We see but we do not we are given windows on the frame of mind and problems of people who

lived the depression and we are not moved by them one scene in the recent movie king kong

where the main actress this girl lost her job had no money and is hungry and after a encounter

is given a card to a burlesque business and is so down is serious enough to actually go to the

place in this age women who entered into this business were considered harlots.


today we look at the screen and do not turn a hair women continue whatever they were doing

my mother would have gasped in horror even been sickened and turned off the TV

now we watch such things and call it news or entertainment how things have changed..


ammo you ain't got enough cannot carry enough of anything else either just like the lady in

New Orleans the authorities will come to your home and break down the door and take your weapons

and ammo and redistribute your food and put you in a labor camp.


right now they are speaking on changing child labor laws to include your children in your own

business farm or ranch so they cannot be used as employees so how are they going to learn the work

ethic or how to work.

do you think in a financial collapse and your in a camp they will care for them no they will be in

there with you i have seen it recently in other countries you have seen it but it does not register.

because your in America we are immune it cannot happen here well it has and it will again

and worse there has been an outbreak of tuberculosis that is resistant to treatment

have you heard do you know there are 3 variations of the AIDS virus one more deadly than the other.

and it will keep morphing as it has 2 times already.

anthrax is on the rise and smallpox your not protected as well as you think from your childhood


Mad cow read up on it they try to make it like UFO's anyone who tries to warn of it is laughed at.

where I go to for medical treatment I walk the halls and at least a couple of rooms on each floor

are quarantined or isolated and require protective clothing this was uncommon years ago

but is so common today even the nurses just suit up and go about their business as usual.

our souls and feelings have been hardened to a point of disaster we won't see it coming because it's

already here.


how do these events play into ammo during a national emergency caused by epidemic, unrest

caused financial or civil you will find out the hard way.

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Just did a small inventory last night. I picked up a new ammo box at the range yesterday, pretty nice actually. Its plastic, holds up to 30lbs, has a rubber seal, and is made in the USA...and added plus. Anyways I've got just south of 50 loaded AR mags and much more loose ammo in reserve lol. I still need more handgun ammo though, especially .45, as I only have 50 rounds left....still.

Edited by JonM1911

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keep on stacking it back


all that has to happen is certain substance to be made a restricted substance like many have been

in recent years under the guise of "security"


then ammo will end up costing 5 x more, and now of days things do not get voted on they are implemented



these rooms would not exist if not for the constant and underhanded way the powers that be are acting

rules and laws are being made with out a vote by us or our representatives.

Thus our sense of paranoia is alerted.

if for no other reason if someone can afford a 300 dollar toilet seat then forcing the price of any article up

to keep it out of the hands of the general public is not out of the question is it.


If we were discussing something that went bad then I would advise against stockpiling but if stored in

and covered then it can be used as trade goods or money as we have seen it took many years for silver

to become valuable again I think we are seeing a lull and a window to buy at bargain prices


coating metal in tar and covering with leaves then dirt on higher ground it will last many years and if what'sin the can in placed in some of these new bags I see then it wold be impervious to moisture and time.

caches are still being found from 60 and 70 years ago in good condition.

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Gun Owners of America

Rep. Walsh to UN:

No Gun Control Treaties


Representative Joe Walsh (R-IL) has drafted a bill that would block U.S. funding to the United Nations if it seeks to implement gun control measures affecting U.S. citizens.


Despite victories by gun owners in elections and legislative battles throughout the country in recent years, on the international front gun control is moving quickly.


Most significantly, in 2012 the UN plans to release a final draft of the Arms Trade Treaty—a treaty that will have severe consequences for American gun owners.


Meetings are held behind close doors, but from information gathered by GOA we believe that the ATT will, at the very least, require gun owner registration and microstamping of ammunition.


The ATT will define manufacturing so broadly that any gun owner who adds an accessory such as a scope or changes a stock on a firearm would be required to obtain a manufacturing license.


It would also likely include a ban on many semi-automatic firearms (like the Clinton gun ban) and demand the mandatory destruction of surplus ammo and confiscated firearms.


President Obama, not surprisingly, welcomes the treaty. He knows that he is unlikely to get such radical proposals through the Congress, so the UN provides him a backdoor way to enact gun control.


Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is also on board and began pushing for the treaty as soon as she was confirmed in her position. “The United States is prepared to work hard for a strong international standard in this area,” she said.


Since treaties must be ratified by the Senate, GOA is working continually to buck up weak-kneed Senators who might be pressured to ratify the treaty.


But the House, which controls the nations’ purse strings, can also play a role in killing the ATT (or any other anti-gun treaty, for that matter).


Rep. Joe Walsh’s legislation will cut U.S. funding to the UN if the international body imposes any restrictions on Americans’ gun rights.


This is a huge deal, because without the contributions of the United States, the UN would be crippled financially. According to government reports, U.S. taxpayers foot the bill for 22 percent of the UN’s regular budget and 27 percent of its “peacekeeping” budget.


American gun owners, in other words, are funding the organization that wants to do away with the Second Amendment!


Rep. Walsh is putting the UN on notice: back off our gun rights.


Entitled the “The Second Amendment Protection Act of 2011,” Rep. Walsh is now seeking original cosponsors to join him in the House. He plans to introduce the bill within the next week.


Rep. Walsh highlights for his House colleagues the necessity of his proposal, noting that:


* It is the constitutional power of Congress to determine United States foreign policy through the ratification of international treaties;


* U.S. Presidents, by signing on to treaties, have opened the door for international organizations to unilaterally regulate the lives of citizens of the United States;


* International and transnational organizations force their rules on people of the United States through conventions, multilateral agreements, and nonratified treaties, such as agreements that affect the private ownership of firearms by law-abiding citizens; and


* United States sovereignty is risked by domestic legal applicability of international treaties and executive agreements that have not been voted on and congressionally adopted through formal processes.


Let’s help Rep. Joe Walsh get as many cosponsors as possible. In the process, we’ll find out how many Representatives are willing to stand up to the behemoth United Nations in defense of the Second Amendment.

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