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Bugging In: The Compromise

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do you know how much the ceramic plates weigh? i looking more towards protection for hubby because i am not sure do to my size if i could realistically wear one .... is that $800 for the vest itself of just the plate?

Level 7A SAPI plates used by the US Army front and back weigh 9.35 LBS a piece side plates 2.85 LBS OITV without the plates inserted depends on size but between 13.2 and 16.9 lbs avg weight fully assembled with zero combat gear about 34 LBS

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biblenguns, if you are the point where you are shooting, do not shoot to scare. it needs to be to stop the threat, that goes for self defense, and shtf defense.

 

Thanks for the advice, I have always been a little torn about that.

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To chime in with Navy_Vet77 and many others, flying under the radar is always better. In the last 5,000 years, we've not yet managed to make an impregnable fortress, so broadcasting your location and intentions just seems like a very bad idea. Regardless of how awesome your Alamo is, it will fall sooner or later, and then you've lost the most important game of all.

 

I think I have one of the best concealed bug-in locations, and I'm hiding in plain sight. My bug-in sight is a barn that has been carefully converted into an apartment. It appears as nothing more than a storage area for rusty farm equipment that the landlord may someday choose to fix. There appears to be nothing of value there. However, it has three escape option (two totally concealed), an elevated vantage point, the ability to store large amounts of food, water and other supplies, and the ability to sustain 4 to 6 people in relative comfort. And the best part? No one knows its there.

 

-----

 

On the body armor issue, as someone who wears it for a living, its not terribly comfortable but I would much rather catch a bullet with it than with my chest. Also, my vest is rated to stop pistol rounds up to .44 Magnum and shotgun buckshot and slugs. Even if the vest will stop a slug, the kinetic energy of that 70 caliber lead ball will probably kill you, but that's neither here no there.

 

For practical purposes, getting body armor to stop rifle rounds is probably not worth it. Its expensive, its heavy and I think your money could be much better spent on other preps. If you come across a relatively cheap set of Level II, IIIA or III then picking it up wouldn't be a bad idea. Make sure they are not expired (kevlar material will break down and lost its abilities over time) and that they are made to the newest NIJ standards.

Edited by Major Krisis

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Already own afew level 4 BP vests with ceramic plates. I'm a RO & was a firearms instructor. Got tired of teaching YA WHOS/Moroons doing their safety course & the BS from time to time.

Roll steel as plates will not stop any 338LM round. Boy do i know.

Hardox & Armox steel, now your talking. Played with these types of steel & they rock.

 

Sure you use the vest as a 'tool-of-the-trade' so you can order one whenever you want. Most civilians don't.

I'll have too look up Hardox & Armox/ where to get

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On the body armor issue, as someone who wears it for a living, its not terribly comfortable but I would much rather catch a bullet with it than with my chest. Also, my vest is rated to stop pistol rounds up to .44 Magnum and shotgun buckshot and slugs. Even if the vest will stop a slug, the kinetic energy of that 70 caliber lead ball will probably kill you, but that's neither here no there.

 

Kinetic Energy of shotgun slug... Would without a doubt knock you on your arse and probably knock you out from the impact, maybe break a couple ribs depending on how close you were when they shot you. But you should live.

Edited by NavyVet_77

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But why spend $1,000 or more on a vest that will stop say an AK round? The money that went towards the vest could have gone to other supplies. I would rather move lighter.

 

The only reason I am against a vest is because if you are shot, the vest is usually toast (At least from what I have heard), and the force of the bullet stopping will knock the wind out of you, leaving you prone to being killed or dragged off!

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I'm not taking anyone to task here, just going to offer my own opinion which is made from the same thing as belches and

farts. (hot air) We live in what can be termed a semi suburban area with large greenbelts of woods. When we moved to our present location, we did so with our dogs and the "idea" that perhaps this location and home would be the family fall back position in the event of a failure in public order or other domestic chaos. Our grandchildren are multiplying so we need to expand the current foot print of our home as the budget allows. We can deal with that as it will now allow us to internally harden

the current structure to upgrade what is currently existing. We've also involved our neighbors in our own version of Neighborhood Watch/Emergency Preparedness, so that we now have a neighborhood with some great "specialties" and neighbors that do come to each other's aid during a recent storm emergency as well as when "strangers" appear in the neighborhood.

Many of us are involved in shooting sports in various degrees from novice on up, so, we kind of came to a joint conclusion of providing "over watch" capabilities on each other's homes if things go south and their is domecpstic chaos and marauding bands of Lowlife, scummy thugs roaming about. All of this has been done in a very QUIET manner very discretely, so that the older folks in. our neighborhood and the younger families are all on board as their individual) situations allow. I am extremely

grateful to live in such a neighborhood of good decent people. We like the low profile high intensity approach, seems to work for us. MIGHT BE worth it to carefully see how interested your neighbors might be in being a LITTLE better prepared for PERSONAL or Family crisis (loss of job, etc) type of emergencies to start with. We found that the other questions come rapidly

as people start to get "converted", have pnly had one person "opt out" we be.I Eve that to be a temporary situation only.

Hope this helps a little.

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Malcom is correct!!!

MIGHT BE worth it to carefully see how interested your neighbors might be in being a LITTLE better prepared for PERSONAL or Family crisis (loss of job, etc) type of emergencies to start with. We found that the other questions come rapidly

 

I have a next door neighbor who is a S. E .A.vet,we go to the Va hospital togeather when we can,We compete with our Gardens,and he is much like Capt.Bart,he has a AK and wont own a AR.

I resentley gained another neighbor, he is thinking about planning for the future.Cost me some plants but thats what its all about.That makes 5 so far!!

Getting Neighbors togeather and being ready is all important!

 

As far as Ft.Appachie is conserened,you cant defend for a long time just as Capt Bart says,But you can get the INTEL you need and stop it before it gets close!!

 

cans and wire work well if placed correctley!

I do a mean trip wire that I guarantee with break your ankle,if you should try to be sneekey.

JMO

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Guest survival101
"HOW-TO" fortify your home is one thing. But the debate is whether or not to make yourself known to other people in the area.

 

As for how to prep.... I say pipe bombs and booby-traps

 

Thanks Navy. You must be cranky. I was adding an additional dimension to the question. It does belong on another thread. Have at it sir. I won't contribute anything. You won't learn anything cause you know it all... as I've noticed.

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Guest survival101
I'm not taking anyone to task here, just going to offer my own opinion which is made from the same thing as belches and

farts. (hot air) We live in what can be termed a semi suburban area with large greenbelts of woods. When we moved to our present location, we did so with our dogs and the "idea" that perhaps this location and home would be the family fall back position in the event of a failure in public order or other domestic chaos. Our grandchildren are multiplying so we need to expand the current foot print of our home as the budget allows. We can deal with that as it will now allow us to internally harden

the current structure to upgrade what is currently existing. We've also involved our neighbors in our own version of Neighborhood Watch/Emergency Preparedness, so that we now have a neighborhood with some great "specialties" and neighbors that do come to each other's aid during a recent storm emergency as well as when "strangers" appear in the neighborhood.

Many of us are involved in shooting sports in various degrees from novice on up, so, we kind of came to a joint conclusion of providing "over watch" capabilities on each other's homes if things go south and their is domecpstic chaos and marauding bands of Lowlife, scummy thugs roaming about. All of this has been done in a very QUIET manner very discretely, so that the older folks in. our neighborhood and the younger families are all on board as their individual) situations allow. I am extremely

grateful to live in such a neighborhood of good decent people. We like the low profile high intensity approach, seems to work for us. MIGHT BE worth it to carefully see how interested your neighbors might be in being a LITTLE better prepared for PERSONAL or Family crisis (loss of job, etc) type of emergencies to start with. We found that the other questions come rapidly

as people start to get "converted", have pnly had one person "opt out" we be.I Eve that to be a temporary situation only.

Hope this helps a little.

 

I like your outlook, Malcolm. I'm prepared to defend, but I still have compassion for my fellow man. No pipe bombs for me.

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Thanks Navy. You must be cranky. I was adding an additional dimension to the question. It does belong on another thread. Have at it sir. I won't contribute anything. You won't learn anything cause you know it all... as I've noticed.

 

THis is the place to learn and give thoughts and opinions... unless we are all to submit to your view of reality. Others have opinions and experience as well.

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Guest survival101
THis is the place to learn and give thoughts and opinions... unless we are all to submit to your view of reality. Others have opinions and experience as well.
So, are we to infer from this that you have an attitude problem, and there is something you don't like about me? Why would you think I don't come here to learn? I come here to both learn and hopefully contribute something. What's your problem, dude?

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So, are we to infer from this that you have an attitude problem, and there is something you don't like about me? Why would you think I don't come here to learn? I come here to both learn and hopefully contribute something. What's your problem, dude?

 

Looking back in the thread I'm really uncertain as to what you took offense too. WHatever it was Im sorry

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and also low profile is the way to go always, the only time you need to have a show of force is after you have been compromised then you need to show them that the price they will pay to get your stuff will be too high. and also you need to be violent enough quickly enough.. no hollywood blah blah speech induced stand off. be brutal, be fast, and show no quarter because most likely they will not show you or yours any for being unwilling to help them. there will be no room for humanity and good intentions if you want to live and see your family live another day.

 

let me add that here in NC i know a lot of people who think they are prepping by spending their time buying guns and ammo but not the essential stuff needed, they haven't figured out that ammo has no nutritional value. those are the ones who will be the worst as they will be starving, desperate, AND armed. Not every unprepared idiot will be unarmed, something else to think about.

 

Well said wardog

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Here's MY dilemma and i don't know if this is the place to ask this question but i am throwing it out there anyways - i am a nurse, so my first instinct as a professional is to help those in need which i think could be a real problem during this time. I don't have any military training. I don't know a thing about combat - so am i safe to think that my "momma bear" instincts would over-ride my "professional" instincts during this time of chaos? i guess i am beginning to realize that i am not sure how to "mentally" prepare for such events. any feedback would be greatly appreciated :)

 

Cowgirl,

 

My training has given me this same instinct, to run in and help rather than running away. I am learning/realizing that this could be my downfall.

 

Lets say you have a good secure BOL. Some people come along and notice this. Lets say.. instead of attacking/breaking in, they try to sucker you to come OUT of your home, by faking an injury or even faking to be in distress. In my opinion, there is NO situation outside the walls of your own home/safety that you can truely know the truth of the situation. Can you fight your motherly instinct to go help these people?

 

I;m facing the same problem.

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Here's MY dilemma and i don't know if this is the place to ask this question but i am throwing it out there anyways - i am a nurse, so my first instinct as a professional is to help those in need which i think could be a real problem during this time. I don't have any military training. I don't know a thing about combat - so am i safe to think that my "momma bear" instincts would over-ride my "professional" instincts during this time of chaos? i guess i am beginning to realize that i am not sure how to "mentally" prepare for such events. any feedback would be greatly appreciated :)

 

Cowgirl,

As a soon-to-be-RN I'm in exactly the same spot as you. One thing to remember is what you've been taught about disaster response for your facility (at least I hope so). Say a tornado hits the hospital you're working at. Rule #1 is to ensure that you are safe and physically able to help others. You don't do anyone good trying to help when you're a casualty.

Family and your own health / safety are priority one. Once that is ensured you can let the medical professional come out (so long as it doesn't compromise you and your family).

 

-----------------

 

Something that others have said on this thread is that there is no truely defensible position. Personally, if things are bad enough that I'm worried I might have to try and fight off a mob (or hope they skip over my house), I should have already been out of there. I have a family to protect and provide for so avoidance / evasion is the first priority. No supplies / posessions are worth dying over. Supplies are temporary anyways - they're only meant to get us through a transition period if its a long-term situation. Of course I'm ready to fight if things develop too quickly for me to get my family out, but I for one am not going to risk a shoot-out over stuff. Maybe my mall-ninja neighbor will but all that's going to do is get people killed and his house burned down. Even at my BOL, if I have to get out (say I see a gang of 50 headed my way) I'll do that if it means I can keep my family alive. I shouldn't have everything in one spot anyways. If I lose one cache, I still have more elsewhere if I've done my job right.

Edited by murjd17

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Some helpfull info for those thinking about getting body armour.

Level 2,3,4 will not stop a rifle round, any centre fired rifle ammo will go through them.

One needs plates to stop most rifle rounds.

 

Absolutely but the trauma plates are just to small for my liking mine in a class III carrier is 6"x9" guess I am hoping the guy with the rifle is a good shot satisfied with center mass shots

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Let me expand a little from my earlier posts. most of what i was talking about were people who are threats, I dont expect everybody to be an out right threat as most people will just be scared and confused but not looking for a fight. probably less than 10% will be what myself and navy vet talked about earlier, problem is that percentage will more than make up for the rest when it happens. the big dilemma is the critical moments trying to find out if they are a threat or scared and desperate looking for a handout or sanctuary. honestly this whole thread brings to light just how grey and chaotic a shtf situation will be like.

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Cowgirl,

there is a thread on the forum http://survivalcache.com/survival-psychology-aftermath-self-defense-shooting/ there is a comment thread from 'nerdyadventurer' about a medical professional's duty. Part of my response was

 

Your primary responsibility is your family but your mental state will be better if you've worked this out beforehand.

 

Thank you Capt Bart :o- the organism ideology definately helps put things more into perspective from a medical perspective ... yes, we are taught triage scenerios and what not as medical professionals and to save those we can, but those are also scenerios that are of a completely different realm of life. SHTF could very well be lead to no longer being in "normal life", so i don't think the moral dilemma would truly be there if it between a stranger's survival and ultimately my families safety. The more involved i get into this process the more i realize the different mind sets necessary for the moment.

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Cowgirl,

As a soon-to-be-RN I'm in exactly the same spot as you. One thing to remember is what you've been taught about disaster response for your facility (at least I hope so). Say a tornado hits the hospital you're working at. Rule #1 is to ensure that you are safe and physically able to help others. You don't do anyone good trying to help when you're a casualty.

Family and your own health / safety are priority one. Once that is ensured you can let the medical professional come out (so long as it doesn't compromise you and your family).

 

yes, disaster response has been the base of my struggle ... we have been through a couple what reporters critiqued as "disasters" in the city in the last 2-3 years (which is why i don't myself live in the city) so our facility is always talking and planning and practicing so i wasnt taking off my work cape in my mind when i left for the day. But you are right, protect whats mine first and then help if able, but with my mom cape on i am way less likely to do anything to jeopardize my family.

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Cowgirl,

 

My training has given me this same instinct, to run in and help rather than running away. I am learning/realizing that this could be my downfall.

 

Lets say you have a good secure BOL. Some people come along and notice this. Lets say.. instead of attacking/breaking in, they try to sucker you to come OUT of your home, by faking an injury or even faking to be in distress. In my opinion, there is NO situation outside the walls of your own home/safety that you can truely know the truth of the situation. Can you fight your motherly instinct to go help these people?

 

I;m facing the same problem.

 

you are right NavyVet_77 and that is a scenerio that would be tough, but i think would also be one that would put my mind and my gut feeling in complete tormoil with each other. Given that my gut would win (it always does and isn't usually wrong), my mind would have to just deal with the fact that if a person is not within the walls of my realm at the time then those people be on their own - i can't save the world, but i can do my best to save my family.

 

Its reassurring to know i have fellow people out there struggling in the same regards in this area. Death in my professional world is the equivalent of failure and if you give have a rats arse about the work you do that failure can turn into guilt .... but SHTF creates new and completely different rules

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you are right NavyVet_77 and that is a scenerio that would be tough, but i think would also be one that would put my mind and my gut feeling in complete tormoil with each other. Given that my gut would win (it always does and isn't usually wrong), my mind would have to just deal with the fact that if a person is not within the walls of my realm at the time then those people be on their own - i can't save the world, but i can do my best to save my family.

 

Its reassurring to know i have fellow people out there struggling in the same regards in this area. Death in my professional world is the equivalent of failure and if you give have a rats arse about the work you do that failure can turn into guilt .... but SHTF creates new and completely different rules

 

I would like to think that.. the fact that we recognize this 'personality trait' within ourselves, and know its there, we now know we can do something about it. Without recognizing this instinct, we would be helpless against, and succumb to it. We're half-way there already... maybe

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Kinetic Energy of shotgun slug... Would without a doubt knock you on your arse and probably knock you out from the impact, maybe break a couple ribs depending on how close you were when they shot you. But you should live.

 

We shot a couple of old vests (Level II, expired in 2009 I believe) with a .40 caliber bullet. 180 grn Winchester Ranger Law Enforcement hollowpoints. It didn't penetrate the vest but it did dent the 2x4 behind it. 10 yard range. That is plenty enough force to break ribs. On a different panel, also Level IIs that expired, the shotgun slug did get stopped by the vest at 10 yards. Winchester Ranger, TrueBall rifled slugs, 12 gauge 2 3/4" shells. However, the vest quite literally folded up and went inside the 2x4. Only the edges of the panel were sticking out; it took two people to pull it out.

 

That kind of impact would pretty much shatter your sternum and I would imagine collapse a lung or two. Its also highly probable it would damage some other major organs. I'm not a medical expert, but I'm pretty sure that would kill you. Especially in the field with no major trauma center right around the corner.

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Ok so I will jump in with both feet!!I lived through the Roits of Detroit in the 60s..

Storms of Florida in the 90s..

 

Gangs..Cowards who will steal when they beleve they wont get caught or face "Retaliation".

A bunch of the post here give these Cowards more credit than Its worth!!!It aint "MOVIES" its life and a coward will run when "IT "sees its friend bleading.

Gangs target the weak..any impression of streangth and they are gone..

 

So who beleves that there will be any kind of leader ship to a gang?

A bunch of self centered assholes who want the goverment to HELP them wont arm themselfs and take on anything that is going to cost them there lives..

They will run to the Camps...and try to build something there just like in Prision..

 

Each area of the Country is different,Im in a country setting semi rural,many older folks But Country nun the less.Shot guns abound and many will be suprised at the front door!!

 

Also lets admitt that a sighn posted saying "I will shot any one coming near my Home "works!! It did in Florida when the jamakins were in trucks scanning the local areas!!

Its about easy targets!!and if you beleve the S O Bs will do anything but RUN to the local Goverment for help because thats all they know to do...!!

I have seen it and so have you..

Am I preped??

Well now, Im an old school ..

A combat engineer, also called pioneer or sapper in many armies, is a soldier who performs a variety of construction and demolition tasks under combat conditions. Such tasks typically include constructing and breaching trenches, tank traps and other fortifications, bunker construction, bridge and road construction or destruction, laying or clearing land mines, and other physical work in the battlefield. More generally, the combat engineer's goals involve facilitating movement and support of friendly forces while impeding that of the enemy.

 

you realy think that anyone after week 3 is going to do anything but go to the nearest Goverment camp??

 

Thank God somebody makes sense!! Heck, most people won't even make it out of the big cities! Lots don't have transportation or, if they do, tanks aren't full.

Read "Surviving in Argentina" Ferval's blog, somebody who has actually gone thru it and he makes it clear: Keep your homes tidy and make it clear, it's occupied. The thieves and looters go into the empty homes.

I listened to an interview from a russian who went thru it in the 90's when the USSR collapsed and he says eactly the same thing.

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