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NovicePrepper

Bugging In: The Compromise

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and also low profile is the way to go always, the only time you need to have a show of force is after you have been compromised then you need to show them that the price they will pay to get your stuff will be too high. and also you need to be violent enough quickly enough.. no hollywood blah blah speech induced stand off. be brutal, be fast, and show no quarter because most likely they will not show you or yours any for being unwilling to help them. there will be no room for humanity and good intentions if you want to live and see your family live another day.

 

let me add that here in NC i know a lot of people who think they are prepping by spending their time buying guns and ammo but not the essential stuff needed, they haven't figured out that ammo has no nutritional value. those are the ones who will be the worst as they will be starving, desperate, AND armed. Not every unprepared idiot will be unarmed, something else to think about.

Edited by wardog513

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hope you boys don't mind a girl gettin involved in this conversation :o but this is the info that i probably need the most ... i live in a very "urban" location so i am not worried about the immediate SHTF knee jerk reaction until after the 1st week (ie. people showing up) - i have a fellow neighboring family (as well as dear friends - we have actually discussed going 1/2s on a BOL even furture out of town) that lives about 1/2 mile away from us who are also prepping but they are the only ones in the area that know that we are prepping - i prefer to keep that less than public knowledge. (my personal decision) .... i like the idea of laying low, but will protect my family and property if it came down to it and you guys have given some great examples of things i can do to the exterior of my home (love the hog panels and ply-wood pre cut, instructions to making a vest) to put in place. Have dogs, very protective dogs, so good there.

 

Here's MY dilemma and i don't know if this is the place to ask this question but i am throwing it out there anyways - i am a nurse, so my first instinct as a professional is to help those in need which i think could be a real problem during this time. I don't have any military training. I don't know a thing about combat - so am i safe to think that my "momma bear" instincts would over-ride my "professional" instincts during this time of chaos? i guess i am beginning to realize that i am not sure how to "mentally" prepare for such events. any feedback would be greatly appreciated :)

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cowgirl, unfortunately no one here can answer your moral question. that is something you will have to figure out on your own if and when that time comes. it will be a matter of do they seem like a threat?, could they overwhelm you while you are helping them?, is your family threatened if you do help?. its all situational and everybody will be different, I know what i will do but only you can know what you will do

\

let me add that if it is THAT bad you will just have to know that you cant help everyone and your first priority should always be to your family/group and if you get killed helping a stranger you will do them no good.

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Some helpfull info for those thinking about getting body armour.

Level 2,3,4 will not stop a rifle round, any centre fired rifle ammo will go through them.

One needs plates to stop most rifle rounds.

 

would this be the 1/4" steel plate that NavyVet_77 mentioned in his "how to"?

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would this be the 1/4" steel plate that NavyVet_77 mentioned in his "how to"?

 

Rolled steel plates are not the best to have, they will stop some centre fired rifle ammo but not all.

Ceramic plates are the best to get but very expencive like $800 each in canada.

As mentioned earlyer Armox & Hardox plates is what i would use if on a budget, cost more than rolled steel & heaver.

Edited by P210SIG

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Ok so I will jump in with both feet!!I lived through the Roits of Detroit in the 60s..

Storms of Florida in the 90s..

 

Gangs..Cowards who will steal when they beleve they wont get caught or face "Retaliation".

A bunch of the post here give these Cowards more credit than Its worth!!!It aint "MOVIES" its life and a coward will run when "IT "sees its friend bleading.

Gangs target the weak..any impression of streangth and they are gone..

 

So who beleves that there will be any kind of leader ship to a gang?

A bunch of self centered assholes who want the goverment to HELP them wont arm themselfs and take on anything that is going to cost them there lives..

They will run to the Camps...and try to build something there just like in Prision..

 

Each area of the Country is different,Im in a country setting semi rural,many older folks But Country nun the less.Shot guns abound and many will be suprised at the front door!!

 

Also lets admitt that a sighn posted saying "I will shot any one coming near my Home "works!! It did in Florida when the jamakins were in trucks scanning the local areas!!

Its about easy targets!!and if you beleve the S O Bs will do anything but RUN to the local Goverment for help because thats all they know to do...!!

I have seen it and so have you..

Am I preped??

Well now, Im an old school ..

A combat engineer, also called pioneer or sapper in many armies, is a soldier who performs a variety of construction and demolition tasks under combat conditions. Such tasks typically include constructing and breaching trenches, tank traps and other fortifications, bunker construction, bridge and road construction or destruction, laying or clearing land mines, and other physical work in the battlefield. More generally, the combat engineer's goals involve facilitating movement and support of friendly forces while impeding that of the enemy.

 

you realy think that anyone after week 3 is going to do anything but go to the nearest Goverment camp??

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Rolled steel plates are not the best to have, they will stop some centre fired rifle ammo but not all.

Ceramic plates are the best to get but very expencive like $800 each in canada.

 

do you know how much the ceramic plates weigh? i looking more towards protection for hubby because i am not sure do to my size if i could realistically wear one .... is that $800 for the vest itself of just the plate?

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do you know how much the ceramic plates weigh? i looking more towards protection for hubby because i am not sure do to my size if i could realistically wear one .... is that $800 for the vest itself of just the plate?

 

Ceramic plate weigh 3lbs each & cost $800 each. Loadbearing vest would be a added cost.

I own Armox plates & they weigh 6 1/2lbs each.

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Ok so I will jump in with both feet!!I lived through the Roits of Detroit in the 60s..

Storms of Florida in the 90s..

 

Gangs..Cowards who will steal when they beleve they wont get caught or face "Retaliation".

A bunch of the post here give these Cowards more credit than Its worth!!!It aint "MOVIES" its life and a coward will run when "IT "sees its friend bleading.

Gangs target the weak..any impression of streangth and they are gone..

 

So who beleves that there will be any kind of leader ship to a gang?

A bunch of self centered assholes who want the goverment to HELP them wont arm themselfs and take on anything that is going to cost them there lives..

They will run to the Camps...and try to build something there just like in Prision..

 

Each area of the Country is different,Im in a country setting semi rural,many older folks But Country nun the less.Shot guns abound and many will be suprised at the front door!!

 

Also lets admitt that a sighn posted saying "I will shot any one coming near my Home "works!! It did in Florida when the jamakins were in trucks scanning the local areas!!

Its about easy targets!!and if you beleve the S O Bs will do anything but RUN to the local Goverment for help because thats all they know to do...!!

I have seen it and so have you..

Am I preped??

Well now, Im an old school ..

A combat engineer, also called pioneer or sapper in many armies, is a soldier who performs a variety of construction and demolition tasks under combat conditions. Such tasks typically include constructing and breaching trenches, tank traps and other fortifications, bunker construction, bridge and road construction or destruction, laying or clearing land mines, and other physical work in the battlefield. More generally, the combat engineer's goals involve facilitating movement and support of friendly forces while impeding that of the enemy.

 

you realy think that anyone after week 3 is going to do anything but go to the nearest Goverment camp??

Exactly what I think. Thanks for stating it so well.

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Ok so I will jump in with both feet!!I lived through the Roits of Detroit in the 60s..

Storms of Florida in the 90s..

 

Gangs..Cowards who will steal when they beleve they wont get caught or face "Retaliation".

A bunch of the post here give these Cowards more credit than Its worth!!!It aint "MOVIES" its life and a coward will run when "IT "sees its friend bleading.

Gangs target the weak..any impression of streangth and they are gone..

 

So who beleves that there will be any kind of leader ship to a gang?

A bunch of self centered assholes who want the goverment to HELP them wont arm themselfs and take on anything that is going to cost them there lives..

They will run to the Camps...and try to build something there just like in Prision..

 

Each area of the Country is different,Im in a country setting semi rural,many older folks But Country nun the less.Shot guns abound and many will be suprised at the front door!!

 

Also lets admitt that a sighn posted saying "I will shot any one coming near my Home "works!! It did in Florida when the jamakins were in trucks scanning the local areas!!

Its about easy targets!!and if you beleve the S O Bs will do anything but RUN to the local Goverment for help because thats all they know to do...!!

I have seen it and so have you..

Am I preped??

Well now, Im an old school ..

A combat engineer, also called pioneer or sapper in many armies, is a soldier who performs a variety of construction and demolition tasks under combat conditions. Such tasks typically include constructing and breaching trenches, tank traps and other fortifications, bunker construction, bridge and road construction or destruction, laying or clearing land mines, and other physical work in the battlefield. More generally, the combat engineer's goals involve facilitating movement and support of friendly forces while impeding that of the enemy.

 

you realy think that anyone after week 3 is going to do anything but go to the nearest Goverment camp??

 

Matt ill have to respectfully disagree with you brother. I think the main difference in the gangs you saw and the gangs one would see in a SHTF situation is the desperation of these people to survive, they will be banding together not out of neighborhood or racial loyalty(though there will be that to a degree) but out of the simple human need of safety in numbers. these gangs will be united under the banner of survival at all costs. that and numbers will bolster them and depending on how desperate they are and what they have already done to survive they may not fold at the first gunshot or fallen comrade more so if they themselves have children that are starving. not condoning this but if my children were on the brink of death and you had something that extended their survival I would do whatever it took to ensure they lived at any cost.

I'm not saying that the preexisting gangs out there that will be roaming wont fold when 1 or 2 of their buddies drop from lead poisoning but you cant count on that long term. just my .02

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Ok so I will ask

WHY would you let anyone close enough to you and yours to have the need for a vest???

and the money spent on it?????

AR at $800.seems to be more prudent!!

$800 on ammo or food and a few well placed catches seems more of a advantage..

JMO..

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Wardog513..

I beleve you are correct in they will do what ever is easyest!!!and being despert some will unite and control a limited area,such as citys and small towns.

Than you will see looting on a scale that will cause what ever military thats around to respond!!

Its about Leadership!!

I dont see that happening in large clusters,maybe in small family units..and the citys will burn...

JMHO

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Ok so I will ask

WHY would you let anyone close enough to you and yours to have the need for a vest???

and the money spent on it?????

AR at $800.seems to be more prudent!!

$800 on ammo or food and a few well placed catches seems more of a advantage..

JMO..

 

Every preper has a budget. Some have the funds to get what ever they want & need. While others have limited $ to spend. So buy what one can afford, not everyone is in the same boat when it comes to finances.

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Wardog513..

I beleve you are correct in they will do what ever is easyest!!!and being despert some will unite and control a limited area,such as citys and small towns.

Than you will see looting on a scale that will cause what ever military thats around to respond!!

Its about Leadership!!

I dont see that happening in large clusters,maybe in small family units..and the citys will burn...

JMHO

 

oh yeah it will be mad chaos in the first few weeks.. my fear is of the ones that make it through all that initial mess. they will be tough smart and ruthless as they have proven to be survivors.

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Its a n important choice:

 

Do you want your house to look empty, or do you want to make sure every would be looter knows you are armed to the teeth with firearms?

 

This was mentioned in another thread but not put in depth. I think if your house looks empty, people would raid it just for a place to stay. But if looters/raiders know you are armed, they can:

 

A: Be afraid of you.

 

or

 

B: Find a way to burn you out or sneak into your home and kill you so they can have you stuff.

 

 

So what would be better, looking like no one is home or making your presence home?

 

 

Or should you find a way to compromise? How would you balance both aspects?

 

NP,

Compromise is rarely, if EVER the correct solution. Apologies to those that 'just want to get along' but Ma Nature just doesn't go for the 'compromise' thing. Trying to compromise with a hungry lion or a ticked off grizzly sow protecting her cubs is a losing proposition. With that as a starting point, let's look at the possibilities.

 

If you make your place 'Fort Apache' you need the equipment and man power to staff that fort. A minimum of a group of 2 or 3 ( I think 3 but you could argue for 2) at each corner of a square lot. You need those four posts manned, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Four hours on, eight hours off is mandatory if you want alert guards. Three shifts or 12 each, 36 people, just for guard duty. You can't stay on guard duty for more than a couple of weeks without a relief or you go numb and just provide a target. That is all you're good for after a couple of weeks of continuous duty. So you need at least a 'red team'/'blue team' kind of set up. Two weeks on, two weeks off. Now you're looking a 72 people. For those 72 folks you have a guard force and people to guard AND people to work. Of course, if you're growing food and such you have a larger area to secure AND so you need more people. To secure a Pershing Missile launch site the Army assigned a full infantry company. That's a clue as to what it takes to secure a compact, well disciplined site.

 

Once you've created Fort Apache, you no longer have the option to hide in plain sight. You ARE visible and you DO have something worth taking or you would not be living in Fort Apache. You are going to be a target for snipers anytime you are outside. If I'm the bad guy, I'm going to be sniping and harassing you at any chance I have. Unless you can get to your watch points without exposing yourself, you are going to lose people, just setting a guard. You are going to have to send out patrols and set ambush points just to ensure some level of safety for the compound. The troopers of Ft. Apache didn't go on patrol because they liked a Sunday afternoon ride. They patrolled to gain intelligence on what is going on in their area and to keep a lid on hostile action.

 

Hiding in plain sight may not work. If it doesn't, then you can become Fort Apache or bug out. This is where luck plays a role. Most civilians don't have a clue about the manpower needed to secure an area. It is always a lot more men than you would think.

 

I come down on the side of, if you are not in a large group (at least 75 to 100) you can not build a survival location that depends on vigilance and force to secure it. The size of force required for useful defense demands a large enough area to support this size group. Bugging in makes this a very unlikely scenario for a successful plan. With a family size group, you can't stay at 'battle stations' 24X7, therefore anyone who really wants to crack your location, can crack it. It isn't even particularly difficult.

Edited by Capt Bart

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a vest can be utilized for more than just close range, can't it?

You said it right cowgirl.

Just a thought, practice with the equipment as oftern as possible. So one will get used to the weight.

With my loadbearing vest i do sit ups , pull ups, squats etc. on a daily bases. I've also joged with it at night time in my area. LOL.

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Here's MY dilemma and i don't know if this is the place to ask this question but i am throwing it out there anyways - i am a nurse, so my first instinct as a professional is to help those in need which i think could be a real problem during this time. I don't have any military training. I don't know a thing about combat - so am i safe to think that my "momma bear" instincts would over-ride my "professional" instincts during this time of chaos? i guess i am beginning to realize that i am not sure how to "mentally" prepare for such events. any feedback would be greatly appreciated :)

 

Cowgirl,

there is a thread on the forum http://survivalcache.com/survival-psychology-aftermath-self-defense-shooting/ there is a comment thread from 'nerdyadventurer' about a medical professional's duty. Part of my response was

I don't know what would be the best way for you to consider such an event; all I can tell you is what a physician friend told me. He considered his family as a living organism (I like that comparison, by the way) and the Bad Guy is an invading disease that must be stopped before it kills the organism. The cost to the organism could be high if not stopped soon enough but the disease must be stopped. It made sense to him, it might help you should you ever need it.

Your primary responsibility is your family but your mental state will be better if you've worked this out beforehand.

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One of my problems with the FT. Apache solution is that I don't think most of us will know it we are looking at TSHTF or TEOTWAWKI. Katrina is a classic case study. Set up your FT. Apache complete with booby traps and IF it is not TEOTWAWKI you may well be explaining to the authorities why you set up a man killing booby trap covered area.

 

If LEO is still functional, they may well come by and ask you 'whatcha doing?' Now you are looking at protecting your stuff from the duly constituted authorities. That is definitely a LOSE/LOSE situation for you.

 

Yes, I know you have to survive the event before you can be judged for murder but setting yourself up for that eventuality is not prudent planning.

 

Just my not so humble opinion.

Edited by Capt Bart

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An actual bullet-proof vest is very difficult for a civilian to get their hands on, BUT are very simple to make one of your own:

 

-GO to a fabric store, buy the strongest toughest Nylon and canvas you can find.

-Get some backpack shoulder straps... with waist buckle if possible.

-Measure your chest/back etc. anywhere you feel comfortable carrying a metal plate.

-Cut (torch required) 1/4" steel plates to size. THe plates will also have to be heated and curved to better fit your body, rather than just a flat plate. We are useing 1/4 steel because a 7.62 round can go through a 27gauge metal trash easily, and typical car doors today won't stop most bullets either.

-Sew the fabric into a 'pouch' or 'pocket' big enough to fit your steel plate inside nice and snug (snug enough so it wont jiggle with movement and stay in place on your body. For sewing thread, for the lack of a better option, I suggest using heavy fishing line (20lb test or better) with 2 lines of double-stitch

 

Bought mine on ebay. level 3 and I got curved plates front and back for $50, the vest was about $200, the plates will stop up to a .308. Its a little heavy but it fits good and I really like the cool factor of just having one!

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I have really looked this over and seeing that for the most part I would be on my own, I would do a combination of things depending on what the situation actually is. My first plan is to look like no one is home. Next would be to make it look my home is abandoned and previously looted. Next depending on the size of the group I would try to convince them that I found this place first ,go find your own. If they insist on coming in then I would resort to fighting.

I would try just shooting at them to hopefulling scaring them ,if that doesn't work I would drop one or more of them. I know that my home is fairly indefenseable. Its just a wood frame house with lots of windows,at this point it is fight for your life and I can throw a lot of lead very quickly and make them earn every bean.

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