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Schoeny

Firearms for a group

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So, lets say you were starting from scratch, and equiping a group of ~20 adults, and lets say 10 children old enough to be trusted with a gun (after being properly trained and taught how to shoot of course). The terrain is mostly open farmland, with rolling hills. The goal is firstly self and group protection, secondly protecting a large area used for food production... growing crops and raising livestock.

 

Im thinking 10-15 or 20 .22 cal rifles, probably Ruger 10/22 or similar

 

Something like 20 hanguns. Not sure if I would want all of either 9mm, or .45, or perhaps a half of each. (I figure those are the 2 most common handgun calibers).

 

Anywhere from 10 to 20 12 guage shotguns, pump action for ultimate reliability, and intimidation factor. Nothing like racking a slide on a shotgun to make someone pay attention.

 

Rifles... I am torn on. I deffinitely want a few .308 for sentry duty in raised observation platforms. After that... maybe a mix of AK, and ARs, or stick with one kind for parts and ammo considerations...

 

Think of this as a fun *if I had tons of money to blow, and I could do this right the first time* type of exercise. Please no Barrett .50 cals or other fun, but totally impractical types of weapons.

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I am sure I've to a few years on ya, schoeny, so here's my counsel, take it for what you will. First, each person picks the firearm/s they will carry and be responsible for. You choose it, you hump it AND the ammo for it. Assuming your mythical group

are all family members, I would suggest they choose common calibers for logistical attractiveness. Toting a .308 regularly

sounds tacti-cool on paper and in fiction, reality is much different. As I get older I appreciate the capabilities of my M4gery

more and more, and while I "like" the idea of a 308, it is becoming not realistic for me to be careying one slung over my shoulder daily. I do like simple .22lr rifles with high capacity and standard capacity magazines, I like them a lot, and still have not found any "volunteers" to get shot with the "lowly" .22 as yet, who knows, people can be stupid at times. I also am a fan of

shotguns for aiding in the repelling of maurauders of either two or four legged variety. I sincerely hope this helps you a bit.

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I agree 100% Malcom. As I stated, I would want a few (maybe 4-5) .308s, but only for hunting and stationary sentry duty on a raised platform. I carried an M-60 in the army, I KNOW how heavy the .308 round is, and I have no interest in carrying a main battle rifle around daily.

 

I personally own a Stag 3G (AR platform). And that is what I would carry for a long arm.

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I like the thoughts, but I think it would be wise to choose either AK's or AR's just to standardize all the parts, the AR's are way cool in my mind, but the AK's are simple and incredibly reliable. Although having a barrage of different calibers is a cool idea keeping all the weapons to 4 or 5 different calibers is probably best just to (again) keep things standard. just my own thoughts

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Hmmm...since I'm spending your imaginary money...

 

I would want about 5 of the .308s for platform duty and possibly hunting.

 

Rifles, I would go with 20 AKs instead for the simple reason that they are easier to keep clean and maintain. There is not a hell of a lot to an AK, you have less than half the moving parts of an AR and they aren't as fussy about being clean as the ARs.

 

Shotguns I'd want the Saiga 12 gauge. I haven't tried one of these but did watch a 'Deadliest Warrior' segment where the Saiga 12 went up against a 12 pump. Saiga won for two reasons; 1.) faster to shoot, semi auto as opposed to pump. 2.) 10 round detachable magazines that made it faster to reload...you can get up to a 20 round mag, but I have not seen one of these so I have no idea as to what they look like.

 

I'd have a .22 rifle for everyone who could carry one. Ammo is cheap, so you should stock up while you can. I'd also make this the take everywhere gun for the young uns...you go outside you take your rifle.

 

Pistols, I don't like 9mm...but thats just my personal preference. Uncle had me carry a .45 so I tend to go that route. Only other thing I might add is a few .22 pistols as well.

 

Side note...all rifles, pistols, shotguns of each caliber, will be the same model and manufacter. Two reasons...if one breaks and you cant get parts you can scavage it for parts should another one break, and two if shit happens you can swap magazines with others to help them reload faster if for some reason they don't have a fresh mag.

Edited by vonBayern

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If you can't find bullets, guns make lousy clubs...love the AK, robust, hard hitting at moderate ranges, not a drama queen...however, my personal rule of thumb is no calibers I can't find at a convenience store, so no 7.62x39 for me. Give me a selection of Rem. model 700's in common calibers (.243, .308, .270, 30-06) scatter in some Mini-14's in .223, 870's in 12 gauge, Glock's and/or 1911's in .45 ACP, and 10/22's all easy to maintain and find ammo for.

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If I have a ton of money I DON'T think a .50 cal Barrett would be impractical in a group that size it is a serious weapon for antivehicle use one round in the engine block with a AP round will stop a semi leaving the load and bewildered driver for you to deal with. I think if money to stock a group is not an issue then diversity would be a strength to the group, alway have the right tool for whateverbthe job any ammo you can scrounge would used by someone

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How about a .308 M4 that is only 3.3 pounds heavier than its 5.56 baby brother and a s#$t load more versatile with massively superior range, knockdown power, penetration, and wound trauma. Just saying my grandfather lugged around the 11.6 lb M1 garand and the 11.5 lb M14 through Korea into Nam he called the M 16 a toy that he would gladly trade in favor of the heavier rifles my own experience has born this out I will keep the M14 I am currently issued over the 5.56 since uncle hasn't been smart enough to upgrade I like the M4 platform the cartridge sucks so personaly I went and got the best of both worlds My M4A5 .308 Bushmaster kicks a$$ weighs 9.3 lbs fully loaded and for those of you who think that is to much my Wife, 11 and 19 year old daughters have their own they carry through the Cascade mountains if you can't deal with it your not going anywhere anyway, if you are not old and infirm or disabled Which are the only excuses viable for not being able to carry a weapon that weighs under 10 lbs I suggest some serious PT. My opinion but since carrying half a dozen weapons is not feasable I opt for the three that offer me the most options and versitility. Save money, saves weight overall, allows for maximum familiarity, and optimizes ammo stockpiles by allowing me to focus my spending on a narrower range of calibers this equals more ammo. So instead of 2000 rounds each of .308, .223, .300 win mag and .50 I have 10,000 rounds of .308 and 200 rounds of .50 for the grizzly simple logistics I don't need a $4,000 Barret my $1400 grizzly does nicely. No not quite as acurate but anybody getting hit with it at 1500 meters isn't going to feel the difference neither will anybody with them when they pop like a damn balloon. The fifty mounts on the truck, pulls security and covers the BOL. I am willing to destroy it if it comes to lugging that bstrd. But the M4 .308s are the king for hunting, knockdown, penetration and fighting range near or covers up to and beyond the abilities of most. I also don't have to have half a mag of ammo wasted making sure the tango stays down. Trust me 15 rounds of 5.56 weighs more and cost more than two rounds of .308 and dont give me bs about how great a shot you are because in a fire fight your not making that heart or headshot like you did at the range but I know for a fact that my .308 is putting a 4 to 6 inch hole through you or shreading an extremity to absolute uselessness unlike the 1/8 inch hole your 5.56 that may or may not have exited leaving your target in the fight for a period of time. Sorry if you do not like it but those are my experiences as a Designated Marksman and Army Master Gunner over the course of ten tours take it or leave it but in a fight or survival situation the person that leaves anything to chance especially for convenience will lose and losing equals DEAD.

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Edited by warrior7r

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Thanks Warrior7r, that post got me thinking. Im thinking of the .308 in light of my personal experiences with a belt fed weapon, and carrying ammo in belts of 100, rather than mags of 20. Not to mention no spare barrel or tripod, plus the weapon itself is plain heavier than an AR-10, or one of the new M14 conversions. Can I ask what you carried? I know there is the socom III, and a troy conversion, and probably several others I am not familiar with.

 

Another thing I dont know much about, but have considered some is sub machine guns in pistol calibers, that use interchangeable mags with whatever pistols you use. Anyone have an opinion on those?

Edited by Schoeny
clarification

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What are the schools of thought here? What I mean is there a dominate philosophy regarding sheltering in place (which for purposes of this discussion could also mean at your BOL) or surviving on the move? It seems to me that would dictate my choices when it came to firearms as much as anything.

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My hypothetical is for a set BoL. I dont have the money to do any of this, but Im wondering if I should make a plan to work towards. Maybe steer some of my familys firearm purchases towards whatever plan I come up with.

 

Im curious as to whether people would prefer a small range of calibers; like 50% 9mm, 50% .45, etc. If you did that, you would be more likely to be able to use any scrounged or ammo gotten in trade. And there will always be some oddball cal weapons that people already own and will bring along. For instance my dad owns my old 357 sig, and a brother in law has a 7mm mag hunting rifle.

 

Or do you go all one make and caliber, for ease of maintaining them and your ammo stock?

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OK ... being the old curmudgeon that I am, let us take a step back for a moment.

 

Everyone in class repeat after me: Mission determines caliber and mission and caliber determine platform! Forget that and you WILL buy the wrong stuff.

 

Starting with the shotguns:

For the mixed group you described all 12 gauge is probably a mistake. I'd go all 20 before all 12 for the lighter recoil, weight and ease of use. Unless you have a real need to take game at extreme shotgun range, the 12 just isn't enough extra gun to force you to eliminate your recoil sensitive shooters from the pool of potential users.

 

Truth is I think 'common caliber' is a lousy idea, within reason. 12/20/.410 shotguns could each fill a role in any plan. The least necessary might actually be the 12 as the long range stuff can be handled by a rifle and the short range stuff is back into 20 ga range.

 

For the handgun:

Depending on your location (big bear country demands large calibers) something like a .357 mag revolver that can shoot .38 special soft recoil loads may be ideal. Remember a handgun, especially at a BOL is NOT a combat weapon of choice. It's only role is to deal with the 'where did that (insert least favorite predator here) come from and how did it get so bloody close?' scenario. This may include fighting your way back to your long gun but a hand gun is NEVER the first choice weapon.

 

With that as a given, then the revolver has simplicity, robustness, commonality, almost jam proof, fires what ever will fit the chamber, easy to clean, no parts to loose etc. If you insist on going pistol, given your parameters, I'd look at the Glock line. It has commonality to spare and although I am a fan of 1911, every Glock functions like every other Glock. That is a big deal if your .45 goes click and you pick up a dropped 9 mm for example. I'd look at 9mm, .40 and .45 just to see what works for recoil. Again, if bear country, you'll want something that begins with a 4 for everyone who can handle it.

 

For the carbine:

The absolute, easiest to clean and maintain weapon I've ever seen, is the AK-47. No exceptions. There might be an easier one out there but I haven't found it. I LIKE to shoot the AR platform. It is light, fun, low recoil and flat trajectory. It is also a bear to maintain. I had one that was maintained in an arms room go click when I desperately needed it to go bang and I'll not trust that platform again.

I would avoid .223 like the plague since it can not safely shoot the 5.56 even though that round will fit the chamber. If you want a 5.56 for recoil abatement, I'd do something like a mini-14. It will safely shoot the .223 as well, has all the advantages of the round without the maintenance headache of the AR.

To be considered, especially if you went the Glock route for the handgun is one of the many carbines that take Glock mags in the pistol calibers. Again, my preference would be for .40 but that is up to your mission profile.

Don't forget to look at bolt and lever guns here as well. These are not combat arms in the conventional sense. In your BOL they are for self defense and hunting. Manning the ramparts and repelling hundreds of MZB makes good theater but in real life, the defenders will probably win or lose very, very quickly against a small group. Against a horde, they will lose.

 

For the Rifle:

There are MANY excellent rifles out there in 30-06, 308, 7mm Rem Mag. Any one of them, semi-auto or bolt or lever would do an excellent job. Not needed for combat, most likely, so a semi-auto is not needed. In bear country I'd go for the .308 over the 7mm just for stopping power but otherwise any would work. Get them with good glass and you have a viable hunting system.

 

For the .22:

Yep, .22's for everybody but I'd mix with bolt and semi. Remember why the world's armies did NOT issue semi-autos to the troops until the 1950s. The ammo wastage was phenomenal. You probably have a gazillion rounds but even that runs out if you're popping off rounds at a rate of 100 a minute. Fire discipline is a key requirement that should be cultivated everywhere.

 

So, mission sets caliber, mission and caliber set platform. The mission is to survive at a BOL; hunting, protecting crops against varmints (wild pigs maybe?), pest eradication and protection if needed. An insistence on commonality absolutely means that there will be mismatches between your tools and the requirements. A mix of AKs and Mini-14s in the carbine role gives a flexible response as well as 3 separate calibers that can be picked up and used for example.

 

Just my not so humble opinion,of course, but I prefer the right tool for the job as opposed to pounding nails with a wrench.

Edited by Capt Bart

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Im going to steal the thread a minute/sorry/

I looked at AR for a some time and was supprised at the prices,local built with a colt upper is $890.00/ its about price right now for me..

and Im all for a AK because of the price and easy use,so that being said this is what I found and Im saving for.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/47299/Century+RI1405N+Folding+Stock+AK47+7.62x39

 

I realy like the folding stock!!!!Its a easy hide thing for me and ammon is easy for me to get..

Your thoughts!

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I suppose that I should make a few things clear, so that everyone knows what I am thinking. I grew up on a large family farm. I mean very large, thousands of acres, thats how it supports so many of my family. Its located in SE Minnesota, so no real large predator or even game animals. There is the occasional small black bear, but I only hear of a sighting in our area maybe once a year. No moose or elk or anything like that around here.

 

The terrain is rolling hills. Visibility for rifle shots probably averages ~500 yards. From the top of the silos and grain elevators, maybe a mile.

 

If things ever did get bad, there is no way we could defend the entire place even with a full battalion, its spread over 30 miles. But there are at least 2 locations with grain elevators that I would like to try and occupy/defend. I say that because one location is only 2 miles outside a city of 100,000, and the other site only 15 miles. Both visible from a pretty major highway. And since it is a farm, and easily seen, I can see the need for a strong deterrent. I dont envision lots of combat... but if someone is starving, and you dont make it clear that not only are you willing, but very able to defend what is yours... well you get the idea.

 

--edit to add-- This same highway is one of two major routes south for a MUCH larger major metro area, which is only ~90 miles away.

 

Im not a huge pistol fan, but in the context of working a farm during a SHTF event, I think they would be 100% necessary for ease of carry while working. Its hard to carry a scoped hunting rifle while chasing cattle on foot lol. But a pistol holstered on your hip would be doable.

 

Hopefully that makes the situation Im in a little more clear.

Edited by Schoeny

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Warrior your killing me; now I have to go out and get an AR in 7.62/308. ;) I have been looking at this one now for the past year. I have a 5gal water jug that I fill with change, I guess we now know what I am getting.

 

http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-obr-optimized-battle-rifle-complete-762-rifle-16-barrel

 

My list would look like this.

Rifles:

Although I have heard mostly good things about AK's as far as their reliability and ease of maintenance I personally would stay in the AR platform. My reasons being first, the ease and availability in this country to get parts for them. In the past 10 years it seams that every major firearms manufacture has begun making AR's in multiple calibers and aftermarket parts can be found at almost all major sporting goods stores. I understand the cleaning issue, but to me part of each individuals responsibilities is to maintain his or her firearm. That said I would have a few in 308/7.62, and a few in 55.6/223 (again availability of rounds) The other reason is that I can't stomach the look of the AK (I know not really a concern if your life's on the line) but still its ugly as sin and reminds me of every bad guy in cheesy 80's movies.

 

I would also would want to have a few bolt action 308 rifles for hunting. As well as both semi and bolt action 22.

 

Shotguns:

Capt. Bart brings up a great point about recoil. That said I think this can be managed by the size of the load (2 1/2", 3", 3 1/2") and whether or not the shotgun is a pump or semi-auto (My Semi-auto Mossberg in 12 has less kick then my 20 gage pump remmington using 21/2). As Capt. mentioned situation is going to dictate caliber, and I agree to a large extent, that said we all know that in stressful situation we lose fine motor skills, and can experience tunnel vision, so my worry with mixing 12 and 20 gage would be that in a life or death moment an in experienced shooter (specifically with shotgun) could easily grab a few 20 gage rounds and throw them in a 12 gage shotgun or vise versa. If the only difference is the size of the load then at that moment with your adrenaline pumping the gun is going to go off regardless of the size and your not going to feel the kick any way.

 

Handguns:

Although Im a huge fan of HK, I agree with Capt. about going with the Glock. Reliability, ease of use, and availability of parts is big for me. However, I think I would probably opt for the 357. This is because I could then also go with a 357 revolver that can also take 38. In this scenario I would probably stay away from 9mm, 40, or 45 and stick with the 357 and 38 simply because of interchangeability between different weapons. Id also have a few 22 handguns as well.

Edited by Juice94

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Hmmmm, unless I am way wrong, a .357 in semi auto is a necked down .40 cal case. Not interchangeable with a .357 revolver. I *think* the semi auto caliber is called .357 sig, for differentiating between the two.

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Schoeny, you bring up a good point .357 Sig is a necked down .40. Additionally, something I found out when researching a concealed carry gun for my wife, while you can change calibers with only a barrel change, it is highly recommended that you start with a pistol designed for the .357 and go to .40 and not the inverse. The Glock 31, 32, 33 are built to handle the higher chamber pressures of the .357 round, the G22, 23, 27 and 35 are built for the .40 and have had failures when converted to .357.

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After a little consideration I believe that I would be inclined to purchase the same type and caliber of weapon for each member of the team, with at least two spares. In this way if you had to pick up someone else's weapon in the dark an use it, you would not be fumbling around trying to figure it out. So familiarity with is one key factor. Same caliber, well that is a no brain choice. Two extras so if one weapon goes down then you have a spare to use and the broken one can be used for spare parts.

The same goes for caliber of the weapons. All the same for each weapons platform. Personal likes and dislikes can not play a part in this unless each has an additional weapon of their own choice and caliber. Just like the military, everything the same and functions the same. This will save a lot of heart ache in the future.

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Schoeny, you bring up a good point .357 Sig is a necked down .40. Additionally, something I found out when researching a concealed carry gun for my wife, while you can change calibers with only a barrel change, it is highly recommended that you start with a pistol designed for the .357 and go to .40 and not the inverse. The Glock 31, 32, 33 are built to handle the higher chamber pressures of the .357 round, the G22, 23, 27 and 35 are built for the .40 and have had failures when converted to .357.

 

Unless I'm mistaken you would also need to change the spring as one or the other would be prone to stove piping or to slide overtravel

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Hmmmm, unless I am way wrong, a .357 in semi auto is a necked down .40 cal case. Not interchangeable with a .357 revolver. I *think* the semi auto caliber is called .357 sig, for differentiating between the two.

 

I didn't realize that. Good point. My Semi-autos are either 9mm, 40, or 45. The only revolver I own is a 44. My point was to find a round that would fit both a revolver and semi, worked well for any application, and was readily available.

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After a little consideration I believe that I would be inclined to purchase the same type and caliber of weapon for each member of the team, with at least two spares. In this way if you had to pick up someone else's weapon in the dark an use it, you would not be fumbling around trying to figure it out. So familiarity with is one key factor. Same caliber, well that is a no brain choice. Two extras so if one weapon goes down then you have a spare to use and the broken one can be used for spare parts.

The same goes for caliber of the weapons. All the same for each weapons platform. Personal likes and dislikes can not play a part in this unless each has an additional weapon of their own choice and caliber. Just like the military, everything the same and functions the same. This will save a lot of heart ache in the future.

 

I agree with your view of things VIS 9.

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OK ... being the old curmudgeon that I am, let us take a step back for a moment.

 

Everyone in class repeat after me: Mission determines caliber and mission and caliber determine platform! Forget that and you WILL buy the wrong stuff.

 

Starting with the shotguns:

For the mixed group you described all 12 gauge is probably a mistake. I'd go all 20 before all 12 for the lighter recoil, weight and ease of use. Unless you have a real need to take game at extreme shotgun range, the 12 just isn't enough extra gun to force you to eliminate your recoil sensitive shooters from the pool of potential users.

 

Truth is I think 'common caliber' is a lousy idea, within reason. 12/20/.410 shotguns could each fill a role in any plan. The least necessary might actually be the 12 as the long range stuff can be handled by a rifle and the short range stuff is back into 20 ga range.

 

For the handgun:

Depending on your location (big bear country demands large calibers) something like a .357 mag revolver that can shoot .38 special soft recoil loads may be ideal. Remember a handgun, especially at a BOL is NOT a combat weapon of choice. It's only role is to deal with the 'where did that (insert least favorite predator here) come from and how did it get so bloody close?' scenario. This may include fighting your way back to your long gun but a hand gun is NEVER the first choice weapon.

 

With that as a given, then the revolver has simplicity, robustness, commonality, almost jam proof, fires what ever will fit the chamber, easy to clean, no parts to loose etc. If you insist on going pistol, given your parameters, I'd look at the Glock line. It has commonality to spare and although I am a fan of 1911, every Glock functions like every other Glock. That is a big deal if your .45 goes click and you pick up a dropped 9 mm for example. I'd look at 9mm, .40 and .45 just to see what works for recoil. Again, if bear country, you'll want something that begins with a 4 for everyone who can handle it.

 

For the carbine:

The absolute, easiest to clean and maintain weapon I've ever seen, is the AK-47. No exceptions. There might be an easier one out there but I haven't found it. I LIKE to shoot the AR platform. It is light, fun, low recoil and flat trajectory. It is also a bear to maintain. I had one that was maintained in an arms room go click when I desperately needed it to go bang and I'll not trust that platform again.

I would avoid .223 like the plague since it can not safely shoot the 5.56 even though that round will fit the chamber. If you want a 5.56 for recoil abatement, I'd do something like a mini-14. It will safely shoot the .223 as well, has all the advantages of the round without the maintenance headache of the AR.

To be considered, especially if you went the Glock route for the handgun is one of the many carbines that take Glock mags in the pistol calibers. Again, my preference would be for .40 but that is up to your mission profile.

Don't forget to look at bolt and lever guns here as well. These are not combat arms in the conventional sense. In your BOL they are for self defense and hunting. Manning the ramparts and repelling hundreds of MZB makes good theater but in real life, the defenders will probably win or lose very, very quickly against a small group. Against a horde, they will lose.

 

For the Rifle:

There are MANY excellent rifles out there in 30-06, 308, 7mm Rem Mag. Any one of them, semi-auto or bolt or lever would do an excellent job. Not needed for combat, most likely, so a semi-auto is not needed. In bear country I'd go for the .308 over the 7mm just for stopping power but otherwise any would work. Get them with good glass and you have a viable hunting system.

 

For the .22:

Yep, .22's for everybody but I'd mix with bolt and semi. Remember why the world's armies did NOT issue semi-autos to the troops until the 1950s. The ammo wastage was phenomenal. You probably have a gazillion rounds but even that runs out if you're popping off rounds at a rate of 100 a minute. Fire discipline is a key requirement that should be cultivated everywhere.

 

So, mission sets caliber, mission and caliber set platform. The mission is to survive at a BOL; hunting, protecting crops against varmints (wild pigs maybe?), pest eradication and protection if needed. An insistence on commonality absolutely means that there will be mismatches between your tools and the requirements. A mix of AKs and Mini-14s in the carbine role gives a flexible response as well as 3 separate calibers that can be picked up and used for example.

 

Just my not so humble opinion,of course, but I prefer the right tool for the job as opposed to pounding nails with a wrench.

 

Good points Captain but we all have our favorites. From some of your posts I'm guessing you are Harris County. Kind of surprised about the preference for the 20 over the 12 with all the duck and goose hunting that goes on there.

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      machines, the ATM cards can be used to withdraw at the ATM or swipe, at
      stores and POS. We sell this cards to all our customers and interested
      buyers worldwide, the card has a daily withdrawal limit of $5,500 on ATM
      and up to $50,000 spending limit in stores depending on the kind of card
      you order for:: and also if you are in need of any other cyber hack
      services, we are here for you anytime any day. Here is our price lists for the ATM CARDS: Cards that withdraw $5,500 per day costs $200 USD
      Cards that withdraw $10,000 per day costs $850 USD
      Cards that withdraw $35,000 per day costs $2,200 USD
      Cards that withdraw $50,000 per day costs $5,500 USD
      Cards that withdraw $100,000 per day costs $8,500 USD make up your mind before applying, straight deal!!! The price include shipping fees and charges, order now: contact us via
      email address:: {Universalcardshackers@gmail.com} Visit our Website for more Info: https://automatictellers.webs.com
      ®
    • INSTEAD OF GETTING A LOAN,,  I GOT SOMETHING NEW
      Get $5,500 USD every day, for six months! See how it works
      Do you know you can hack into any ATM machine with a hacked ATM card??
      Make up you mind before applying, straight deal... Order for a blank ATM card now and get millions within a week!: contact us
      via email address::{Universalcardshackers@gmail.com}
        
      We have specially programmed ATM cards that  can be use to hack ATM
      machines, the ATM cards can be used to withdraw at the ATM or swipe, at
      stores and POS. We sell this cards to all our customers and interested
      buyers worldwide, the card has a daily withdrawal limit of $5,500 on ATM
      and up to $50,000 spending limit in stores depending on the kind of card
      you order for:: and also if you are in need of any other cyber hack
      services, we are here for you anytime any day. Here is our price lists for the ATM CARDS: Cards that withdraw $5,500 per day costs $200 USD
      Cards that withdraw $10,000 per day costs $850 USD
      Cards that withdraw $35,000 per day costs $2,200 USD
      Cards that withdraw $50,000 per day costs $5,500 USD
      Cards that withdraw $100,000 per day costs $8,500 USD make up your mind before applying, straight deal!!! The price include shipping fees and charges, order now: contact us via
      email address:: {Universalcardshackers@gmail.com} Visit our Website for more Info: https://automatictellers.webs.com
      ®
    • INSTEAD OF GETTING A LOAN,,  I GOT SOMETHING NEW
      Get $5,500 USD every day, for six months! See how it works
      Do you know you can hack into any ATM machine with a hacked ATM card??
      Make up you mind before applying, straight deal... Order for a blank ATM card now and get millions within a week!: contact us
      via email address::{Universalcardshackers@gmail.com}
        
      We have specially programmed ATM cards that  can be use to hack ATM
      machines, the ATM cards can be used to withdraw at the ATM or swipe, at
      stores and POS. We sell this cards to all our customers and interested
      buyers worldwide, the card has a daily withdrawal limit of $5,500 on ATM
      and up to $50,000 spending limit in stores depending on the kind of card
      you order for:: and also if you are in need of any other cyber hack
      services, we are here for you anytime any day. Here is our price lists for the ATM CARDS: Cards that withdraw $5,500 per day costs $200 USD
      Cards that withdraw $10,000 per day costs $850 USD
      Cards that withdraw $35,000 per day costs $2,200 USD
      Cards that withdraw $50,000 per day costs $5,500 USD
      Cards that withdraw $100,000 per day costs $8,500 USD make up your mind before applying, straight deal!!! The price include shipping fees and charges, order now: contact us via
      email address:: {Universalcardshackers@gmail.com} Visit our Website for more Info: https://automatictellers.webs.com
      ®