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Schoeny

Firearms for a group

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Guest survival101

Interesting thread. Learned a lot reading it. I do agree with VIS that each person's weapon being similar would be a big help. But, if you are dealing with youths, girls, boys, and women, you may find some more physically and emotionally adept at manning a weapon than others. You may have to "step down" to the .22 for the children and any women not familiar with country or sporting life.

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In my household of 4 people, we have multiples of the same make & calibres.

 

In Rifles: 4 CZ 858's in 7.62X39 cal , 4 AR's in .223, plus 4 bolt actions in 308/7.62X51

 

In Handguns: 4 CZ SP01 tacticals in 9mm & 1 CZ 85 combat in 9mm also.

 

In Shotguns: 2 Winchester 1300 in 12 guage.

 

In Rimfires: 3 Ruger 10/22 & 1 Ruger SR-22 for rifles , as for rimfire 22lr handguns, it's a mix of 1 Walther P22, 1 GSG 1911 & 1 CZ Kadet.

 

Odd balls, just 1 of each & not multiples of the same calibre or make are 1 Brno in 22lr in bolt rifle, 1 Sako TRG bolt rifle in 300 WM & 1 in 338 LM , 2 Marlins lever rifles 1 in 22 lr & 1 in 44 mag & 1 Lee Enfield bolt in 303 . For pistol/handgun a S&W 629 in 44 mag, a Glock 20 in 10mm auto, a CZ 75b in 40 S&W, 2 colts 1911 in 45acp, a HK P7 in 9mm & a Sig P210 in 9mm.

Edited by P210SIG

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What are the schools of thought here? What I mean is there a dominate philosophy regarding sheltering in place (which for purposes of this discussion could also mean at your BOL) or surviving on the move? It seems to me that would dictate my choices when it came to firearms as much as anything.

 

That kind of thinking can not dictate your choice. Read your history especially Gen. George S Patton no strictly defensive position has ever been held you either go on the offense to drive the tango's away or bug out if you plan on just one or the other exclusively you lose. This is a very basic tactical premise. Also while I am at this I have heard that mission determines equipment and load and while this has good logic it only works with known variables such as a specific target and plan of action, the oppositions disposition, numbers, their equipment capabilities, ect. When we move troops into an invasion or campaign the weapons load out is very general. We do not start carrying mission specific equipment unless it is a specific strike with special parameters or we control the overall footprint and are conducting specific missions ie security patrol, building entry, show of force, or PR all of these have specific load outs. However we do not stop to change our load out during taking ground combat operations even if we reach an urban area and it is house to house it stays as a generic combat squad loadout that means we are not carrying the nicey nice house entry toys ie the 12Ga, mark 5 deftecs flashbangs, frangable ammo and CS nope what your getting is the baseline toys made to do max damage and cover the widest range of possibilities. since in a survival situation you have a very dynamic situation limited intel and everything is unknown your going off speculation at this point unless you have unlimited resources, logistics, trained manpower, and area control you are wasting your time and money planning for mission specific equipment. Stay with a generic cover your bases plan, equipment and mentality that way 85% of the variables are covered instead of just 10%

Edited by warrior7r

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Autonomous,

I am going to be a dick here and evaluate you so sorry in advance.

1) The Mosin Nagant rifles I am assuming based on price and availability the M91/30 weight 8.8 pounds 48.5 inches long (4 ft and a 1/2 inch long) 7.62X54R which is not made in the USA yep it is cheap and as the Zsars army found out better suited as a Spear it has a very slow rate of fire for a bolt compared to even the other bolt actions of its day due to design having the straight bolt requires it to be taking out of the fire position to charge it again placed back onto the shoulder to be sighted and the target to be reaquired after every shot replenishing the 5 shot internal magazine with the stripper clip is slow going without any pressure in a confrontation you will spend 1 minute shooting 2 minutes reloading in the cycle, manual feeding under pressure is even worse. at over four feet long this weeapon is extremely unweildly, hard to control by the avarage shooter, and hard to carry anywhere. This weapon historically excels as a fixed position sniper rifle not as a combat rifle the majority of its wins on the battlefield came from bayonet charges or sniping it was seriously outclassed by its own peers of the day this means that Joe Blow who has grandads M1 Garand and can manuver around will own you by himself, god help you if he has friends because trying to move that monster outside its fixed field of fire is a major undertaking. It aso should be understood that the ammo 7.62X54R has an acid based primer resulting a weapon that requires a lot of preventative maintenance and cleaning. add to it no optics and substandard iron sights (Score 2)

 

2) The Samozaryadnyj Karabin sistemy Simonova , commonly refered to in Russia as the Simonov or to us in the States as the SKS designed in 1944 it was Russia's answer to the M1A Carbine and materials cost. firing the much smaller and lighter 7.62X39 Like its younger brother the AK was meant to be put in the hands of peasents with little training provide superior supressive fire power but effecient at close range (the Russians love mass frontal attacks with hordes like the Chinese and Koreans using numbers and volume to overwhelm you) while it is more accurate than its AK brother its consistent area of impact that is its ability to hit a eight inch area is 135 yards its success is the fact it is a short carbine providing good fire power at close range in this field it owns the 5.56/.223 AR up until it comes to capacity and ease of loading the addition of detachable hicap magazines while expensive does make the SKS superior To the AK in range And accuracy And Superior to the 5.56/.223 in Knockdown power (energy delivered on The target) however inserting the the detachable mags are a pain and require practice and familiarity also remember that a good amount of the surplus ammo out there is acid based requiring extensive and thorough cleaning after it is fired. (Score 6)

 

3) Your choice of the .22 revolver as a back up defense weapon shows a complete lack of understanding of how the basic projectile works there are just two basic ways to die from a bullet, massive catostrophic failure of a Core organ ie the Brain or heart or hypovolemic shock/hydraulic failure (Bleeding to death) can a 22 kill absolutely but usually it takes a while and much longer than most other calibers as it does not create massive tissue trauma which equals the bleeding required to create hypovolemic shock or the instantaneous catastrophic destruction of the brain or heart simply hitting these organs does not equal death they have to be catostrophically damaged to cause instant failure a .22 caliber wound can and often does clot and seal rapidly we are talking minutes here not hours or days. this all equals the target still in the fight you may have got the shot of first but his returned shot from his .40,.45,.38,.357, ect. is 98% of the time going put you down before him. The choice of a revolver is good for inexperienced shooters and a strictly defensive weapon against one or two assailants. (Score 1)

 

Your selection of weapons was looked at only from a financial standpoint to fill three rolls that you do not seem to completely grasp (I am not trying to individually pick on you Auto but you put it out there I hope i am teaching something here) Throughout History we see nations, groups and individuals makes these same kind of choices WWII Poland for example. Most of the privately held weapons outclass and out strip your proposed set up using antiquated surplus that was outdated by 1900 and substandard calibers. Three individuals with Ruger Mini 14s and .357 Revolvers and a couple of savage .270s will mow through your defenses and do more damage to you than you to them your numerical superiority vanishes with your weapons choices they have most of the advantages. light, manuverable, superior more accurate firepower with greater range and volume of fire and they are not under seige, stressed, tired ect. I would definately hit your group supplies and resources for 20 adults and a large number of children antiquated firepower you only have one platform that would give me problems I can overcome that easily just sneak into range for my weapons which is outside of yours take out someone and move let things go quiet do it again. within a week I will have what is yours with just two others. Your ability to project long range firepower effectively is nearly nonexistent a modern bolt action hunting rifle possesses more range and fire power most now have detachable box magazines allowing for faster reloads and we haven't even touched the semi auto's yet. If you want to stand a chance you need to be at least able to deliver the modern average then your personell numbers start to make a difference. (Final Weapons Choice Effectivness Grade. 3 out of 10)

 

Without looking at time to load, action, cleaning, effective range, quality of sights, manageability, size, weight, knockdown, ballistics, wound dynamics, recoil, availability, time of cycle, yes even cost and comparing all of this to what is already commonly available (because this is what you will be facing) you will lose. I am a realist and yes I am trained so please do not think I am picking on you Autonomous you just happened to give me a good teaching point. simply put all weapons are not created equal fire power needs to be chosen based on what you will likely be facing on average and you need to either be able to match that or beat it or your either DEAD or if you do live a slave.

Edited by warrior7r

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H&K 91 or clones 10 and 10 mags for each 7.62x51 /.308

 

Ruger 10/22 20 or for every person and 4 to 8 BX25 mags and 5 -10 rounders

 

12 gauge for all pumps with rifle sights / sluger barrels mag extensions to 7 round

2 bandoleers each #4 buck and 1 ounce slug or sabot as long as they are all the same.

 

make a rule and everyone have whatever handgun they want as long as it is a agreed

caliber.and 6 mags speed loaders whatever.

 

pistol choice because not everyone fits or likes every pistol and it gives a personal identity

Russia and China does not allow for choice and that is another reason I would do it BECAUSE THEY DO NOT.

a BDU uniform shirt as many pockets as you can get all the same shoulder patches optional and caps.

{personalty individualism} and so you know who is who.

 

web gear all the same they buy their own holster that is another personal item as long as it fits web gear.

 

I like 5.56 and AR's but if your going to defend a group and full auto is not available I would go for

7.62x51 and have enough to lay down suppression fire from semi mode.

 

the 10/22's are for small or recoil shy individuals or just working around for self protection line the military

used a carbine for troupes on equipment drivers etc but if they want to carry it all day let them.

 

Now try this 5,7 x 28 in pistol and rifle for each and half 7.62x51 as above and 12 gauge as above for the other.

Edited by juzcallmesnake
can't type

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ARs would be the best choice since they are like barbie toys for men interchangeable with every other AR but they are also expensive. I always thought a good cheap rifle to have for a group is a ruger Mini-14 or even AKs, both can be bought relatively cheap and both are rugged.

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I would be tempted to suggest a ruger mini14 or a Kel-tec su16 as the main weapon for most. I think I might go with the Kel-tec because of the light weight (easier to carry while working) and its ability to use AR mags. The VEPR's someone mentioned earlier are pretty awesome too.

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