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NightOwl

Definative answer about long-term fuel storage?!!!

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I am trying to figure out what is the best fuel (gasoline, diesel, kerosene) for long term storage.

I know about Stabil and PRI-G Gasoline Treatment (is this stuff REALLY as good as it claims- one website claims 10 years storage life if you add PRI-G Gasoline Treatment every 6 months!!!), I have read that Ethanol is the main culprit in todays "modern" gasolines that it seperates from the gas and attracts water vapor.

Would gas without Ethanol store better? -I can get it at the marina.

Some sites claim diesel will keep from 3 months to 1 year (???)

Is there any one out there who REALLY knows the answer?:confused:

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I don't know the answer to this myself, or even how to figure out who the "real" expert is who would know. It will be interesting to see what other preppers here have found out, since having fuel available for the long haul is clearly important to quality of life.

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The FIRST long term fuel was gravity - think water wheel or rock thrown off a cliff! Given that, Diesel keeps longer than even stabilized gasoline. Gasoline is more readily available. A fuel like alcohol is renewable and stores long term but has much less energy content than either gasoline or diesel. There are a lot of "that depends" type issues involved here.

 

Weird chemisty aside:

 

Fuel is valued because of its ability to produce heat. That is the caloric output of the fuel. Same calories as we measure when we eat by the way. The body is a biological machine that needs a certain amount of "heat energy" to function.

 

Definitions of a calorie fall into two classes:

 

The small calorie or gram calorie (symbol: cal)[2] approximates the energy needed to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 °C. This is about 4.2 joules.

The large calorie, kilogram calorie, dietary calorie, or food calorie (symbol: Cal)[2] approximates the energy needed to increase the temperature of 1 kilogram of water by 1 °C. This is exactly 1,000 small calories or about 4.2 kilojoules. It is also called the nutritionist's calorie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie

 

Calories are replaced by the Joule in the SI measurement system.

 

END OF Weird chemisty aside.

 

For stationary use, natural gas would be ideal if you had an uninterruptible source. For a fuel that must deliver a high horsepower per gallon of fuel (caloric output per unit volume) gasoline followed by diesel are best. Diesel wins the storage contest and is better than ethonol fuels for calorie output so is even better than ethonol. That is why the corn ethonol blends are just another of the "warm fuzzies" that mean nothing other than another government control in your life and less food for the world. By reducing the calorie content of the fuel, it takes MORE fuel to cover a given distance so more combustion events (that IS what produces pollution) from the engine PLUS the energy used (often coal fired - always carbon based) to make the ethonal AND the energy used to combine the alcholol with the gasoline. Thermodynamics is a royal pain but you can never get ahead of the game. That is why no perpetual motion machines.

 

Bottom line, short term stabalized gas. If you NEED sudden outputs of high energy, go with gasoline. If you need high energy for lowest possible weight go gasoline. Diesel has been used in aircraft but rarely. Slower response time than gasoline is the biggest reason. A form of diesel is used in gas turbines but those are a seperate discussion. There the heat of gasoline is so volitile that the turbine over heats very quickly, among other issues.

 

If you have no need for rapid accellerations go ALL diesel for storage and adequate energy output. If flamibility is an issue, diesel is safer than gasoline. It's why American tanks burned in WW2 and German tanks did not. If you live in one of the summer means ethonol areas, resupply your gasoline stocks in winter when you get straight gas not the weird blended stuff.

 

I hope this helps.

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The answer is gravity.

 

Actually, I understand that Nikola Telsa believed that gravity could be directly converted to electricity. Now if we could just get his secret papers out of Poland. :rolleyes:

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I was hoping for a little more practical nuts-and-bolts answer, but if we're going to be esoteric about it ENTROPY is the REAL problem - we're all headed for "lower states of energy".

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]755[/ATTACH]:P

 

Only if we live in a closed system, NightOwl. Ever hear of "dark energy"? Some of us stranger individuals are seeing some interesting math ... but yeah, your right, thermodynamics never cuts you an even break. (that is the third law, actually:p).

 

3 Laws of thermodynamics.

In a closed system (nothing coming in from outside the box)

First Law:

You always get colder.

Second Law:

You can never win, you can only break even or lose.

Third Law:

You can never break even.

 

 

Oh, I like the photo of Albert!

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i find it numerous that in a thread the main topic usually lasts for a god three to four post before we get sidetracked =) you never know what your going to get when you open up a thread.

 

focus, people, focus!!!post-1995-13851497932977_thumb.jpg

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Helpful, but I'm still working on it.

NightOwl,

If you are talking very long term, diesel or alcohol are about the only choices for liquid fuel. Stabilized gasoline will last a year, maybe two and no longer. That is the time limit on any gas powered item. Diesel is five plus year and home made bio-diesel is a renewable resource if you know how to do it. Alcohol has been the liquid fuel of choice for a lot of reasons but requires a still, a suitable plant, and sugar.

If you live near a producing oil field, distillates condense out near the flares; it is an annoyance to the field operations but in a TEOTWAWKI it provides a source of flammable fuel.

There is no good answer, long very long term for any internal combustion engine that you want to travel. Things like wood gas can be made to work, but like any fuel source, must be handled carefully for safety reasons.

 

I think the approach for a prepper is to plan on their first year and use that year to get set up where they don't need the liquid fuels. If it is a slow motion TEOTWAWKI or depending on whether or not there is a functioning government, liquid fuels might or might not survive.

Edited by Capt Bart

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NightOwl,

If you are talking very long term, diesel or alcohol are about the only choices for liquid fuel. Stabilized gasoline will last a year, maybe two and no longer. That is the time limit on any gas powered item. Diesel is five plus year and home made bio-diesel is a renewable resource if you know how to do it. Alcohol has been the liquid fuel of choice for a lot of reasons but requires a still, a suitable plant, and sugar.

If you live near a producing oil field, distillates condense out near the flares; it is an annoyance to the field operations but in a TEOTWAWKI it provides a source of flammable fuel.

There is no good answer, long very long term for any internal combustion engine that you want to travel. Things like wood gas can be made to work, but like any fuel source, must be handled carefully for safety reasons.

 

I think the approach for a prepper is to plan on their first year and use that year to get set up where they don't need the liquid fuels. If it is a slow motion TEOTWAWKI or depending on whether or not there is a functioning government, liquid fuels might or might not survive.

 

Agreed, I've come to about the same conclusion. I'm also gonna brush up on my equestrian skills.

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good topic a real mind bender

 

as there are laws then there are also alternatives

 

I have been looking into this and there are challenges the one FUEL

 

that has come to mind is methane there are as always upsides and downsides

 

Methane is highly explosive, the nice part it's free although it need to be fed constantly

 

It's called your septic tank the Chinese use this to power their stoves and the orifice

 

is the same as natural gas.

 

the principle is to trap the methane in a dome over the septic tank I considered a

 

multi tank system with multiple domes {a check valve in the line would be good}.

 

the tank is also fed with fecal matter from hogs or other animals with a trench system.

 

as is done in china.

 

 

this could provide fuel for cooking now the trick is to save the heat I had considered

 

soap stone stove / oven for winter heat it could also use wood and grass paper etc.

 

now we come to refrigeration the gas powered closed circuit ammonia system would be

 

the one I would choose with back up 12 volt.

 

as anyone knows a good stool has to have 3 legs this is where solar comes in

 

and since we have got to think long term here all the components must have

 

multiple backups integrated in the design my consideration was toward numerous

 

panels so the loss of any one would not cause total failure this would include

 

separating into at least 3 sections with 3 charge controllers and 3 batteries

 

bought over time so no part of this system is prone to fail in any particular order

 

Wind depending on region can be a considerable benefit to an overall self sufficient

 

system even in a zone with occasional wind it's contribution should not be discounted.

 

maximizing your energy efficient system means alternate methodology and continuing

 

considering outside the box like solar hot water heater system for interior heating

 

and personal hygienic use and cooking as well as water treatment.

 

a Fresnel lens from a projection T.V. for use in direct and indirect heating and cooking.

 

the only draw back to any of this is technology we have it now but if we go into decline

 

or prices rise all of this will become difficult to impossible to obtain as each

 

year projection T.V.'s are being destroyed and not being manufactured any longer.

 

solar panels may not be available in distressed times as well as the rest of these items,

 

building the required components like piping tanks and tubing valves will be a matter

 

of scavenging trial and error at a time when we can least afford it.

 

I have only scratched the surface of possible components their possibility of varied uses.

 

not to mention the introduction of newer bright er LED's and low powered 12 volt items.

 

A large Fresnel lens makes steam power viable if only during sunny days it's

 

ability to generate power from an alternator or magneto could be advantageous

 

should our economy or way of life be impacted in any negative fashion any convenience

 

will be considered a luxury so start scrapping for the gems now while they are cheap

 

and available.

 

Download and print designs and plans and make sure you have fittings and components

 

you will need so in that day instead of moping and whining you can build and implement

 

you system.

 

I look toward the long haul and quiet energy that can be camouflaged

 

or hidden in case of intrusion and stored energy for use at my will

 

A generator is so inefficient and fuel will become expensive better to

 

put hat money into appliances and items that use alternative energy

 

like heat or 12 volt or low voltage or wattage or natural gas orifice

 

for gas that can be captured from septic systems.

 

out buildings built to consideration of your climate should be included

 

in any bug in or out plan adobe in the south geodesic dome in the north

 

geothermal heating or cooling as the need applies because it works

 

as both, but this is another subject although all things cross purposes

 

eventually and as I have tried so desperately to imbue in anyone who

 

reads my RANTS.

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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I have been buying odds and ends for several months and finally put together two BOB for my wife and myself today. I know these bags are a work in progress but I feel much better now knowing that we will have these available in our vehicles. Now I've got to schedule that conceal carry classs B)

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Agreed, I've come to about the same conclusion. I'm also gonna brush up on my equestrian skills.

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

 

I had a tank of fuel oil that was last filled in the 1950s (it was in the basement of the house when my wife bought it... I wasn't present for the transaction) and it still burns well. I'm sure it isn't as "full strength" as it was but it still works.

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my only thought about horses is

 

they are edible so you better have a plan to protect them from being shot for food by

 

anyone seeing them.

 

my other thought is a jack donkey would be much better twice as strong not as prone to run long

 

distances when startled and could be bred to a mare you get a mule

 

kind of complicated so here is a site

 

http://ultimatehorsesite.com/breedsofhorses/themule.html

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