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Kountry Boy

High Caliber Decision with Precision

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Hey guys.


Im having trouble deciding on what kind of higher caliber rifle i want for my future prepping and i cant decide if i want an AR,AK or bolt action rifle. I want the "locked in" precision of a bolt action rifle but i also want a a higher rate of fire without compromising the accuracy i would have with a lower rate of fire with the bolt action. Im a one shot kill kinda guy, but i want the comfort of knowing that another round is chambered with the recoil of the rifle being the only movement my body makes once the shot is fired. Im also shopping on a budget, as would most others, and im open for any "affordable suggestions and not any that only bill gates could afford lol. Right now im looking at trying to find a Ruger Gunsite Scout at a good price but my budget is limiting me in making that decision. Any opinions and suggestions towards an affordable high caliber rifle would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

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since you asked.... .223/5.56 and 7.62x39 aren't particularly high caliber, they are intermediate cartridges designed to fill the gap between pistol and full sized rifle rounds. So if you're looking for a full sized rifle round you can mostly write those two platforms off (AR/AK) though there are offshoots that come in full sized rifle calibers. 500-600 isn't a lot to work with for a rifle setup, by setup I mean getting the whole shebang, ammo, maintenance gear, magazines, slings, cases, optics (If you feel you need it), manuals (should have if you're new to firearms), targets, range time, etc.. It all cost money.


So I would say, you functional budget for just the firearm is going to be no more than 300 or so bucks. I would recommend going the milsurp route, a good Mosin Nagant can be had for around 200 if you shop around, I've owned a lot of nice new guns over the years, but strangely my M-44 is one of my favorites due to its simple rugged git' er done design. A good Chinese SKS can be had for under 250 if you shop around and I've leveled a few deer with mine in the past, it's a tough auto loader that can get the job done.


The Mosin Nagant is chambered in 7.62x54r, some people liken it to a .308 performance wise (No need for an argument on this, I only said it was similar). There isn't much walking that I'm not fairly sure this cartridge couldn't put down with one shot, and functional accuracy wise it's quite accurate, I know that I personally can't outshout the gun within 300m (farthest I've put it on paper, I don't have magnification on it), but I've had a little work done on mine to tune it up so to speak.


The SKS by comparison is firing the intermediate 7.62x39. I've owned a few over the years, my current one is a Yugo, don't get a yugo, Yugoslavia had poor steel making industries so they had to make everything thicker to get the same degree of strength from the rifle, which makes them heavy. The modern Chinese Norinco variants are much higher quality, though the stocks are crap on them so do yourself a favor and get a nice synthetic Monte Carlo stock, it feels and handles very nice on this rifle. Anything up to a black bear I have no doubts this rifle can take down, for bigger game you may need to take advantage of the ten round box mag, or the ungainly high caps, I prefer the box with stripper clips. I trust these rifles in good condition to completely ruin a human target up to and in excess of 300m, out past about 250m though your groups will start to open significantly in my experience.


Both ammunition types are in steady supply in my area, and easily affordable, check your area though. Both are designed to handle steel cased ammo and unless you're reloading that's what I'd recommend shooting in them.


That's just my thoughts on the matter, I hope I didn't belabor the subject too much.

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Lots of good posts and info so far. For the price there's a lot of good choices. I'd go with an AK. Reliable, solid caliber, ammo is abundant, fairly accurate, high capacity, and can be had for $600.

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I had looked at a few sks`s over the past few months and know them pretty well from my dad having a few growing up. the only reason i havent put more consideration into one is because locally they seem to sell for no less than four hundred dollars a piece in pretty crappy condition. im begining online shopping for one as we speak to see if there are any cheaper ones there. Thanks for the help brother.

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What ranges? The milsurp route is a good one. Anything in .30-06 or .308 works well. If you want new, it's probably going to be a bolt gun. Savage makes a .308 with scope on sale for around $400-$500 IIRC. There are a ton of used rifles available in those calibers and a .30-06 has probably taken more deer than anything except the .30-30.


If you see a need for more than 600 yards, those are about the only choices. There are a slew of rounds that would work but I think they have disqualifying drawbacks - the .300 Win Mag is a great round, for example, but I'm not sure I'd consider it as a survival round due to special ammo required and the cost means you'll pay a lot to practice. Look at deer rifles in your area. A 7mm Rem Mag is a decent long range gun, but again, unique rounds.


The 5.56/.223 and 7.62X34 are not rifles and I don't personally consider them rifles. They are carbines shooting carbine rounds. I favor .30 caliber over .22 caliber so I'd go that route if you choose a carbine but if you want a rifle, the Mosin works if you can deal with the ammo. All I've seen are hard to reload - may no longer be true but plan on stocking all you'll ever have. The M1 Garand, M1A, M14, HK - 91, PTR-91 (HK clone), FN's, and others are.30-06 or 7.62 NATO (.308). You might find one for $600 but I suspect you're looking at more like $700 to $900.


I hope this helps a bit.

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I un ashamedly admit to owning several Mosin's with a little cleaning and care they are great weapons. you must remember though that they where intended to hit man sized targets and that is what accuracy you get at the longer ranges. yes you can with practice hit a man sized target at 1200 yards. Since it was a target not a man i have no idea how much actual energy was imparted on impact.

They are rugged and cheap ammoa was dirt cheap for along time but easy to reload and they are tolerant to overpressure.


All of that aside. Really consider your standoff ranges. IF you really expectto be having to engage at 300+ yards then its worth spending some extra money. truth be told that will rarely happen. ar has great accuracy but requires alot more field maintenance ak is rugged and great at closer ranges. OH btw for those who care about such things the actual wound coefficient for ar was intended at 150 yards and it drops dramatically after that. after that it can tumble as well in impact. ak round has about the same effective range. both will still hurt like a bitch at longer ranges any way.

Quality .308 isnt cheap if you are lookingfor one shot one kill .408 sabot from .50 is best for real long ranges but at about 4 a shot not worth it.


It all really comes down to standoff range.

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What sort of weapons you will need will be totally dependent on the roll you will have it fill. The AR,AK,SAS type weapons are for assault weapons. Take the name and think about it...Assault...These weapons are made to have fairly light ammo because you are on the move. They have a high rate of fire because you will be moving fast and will need to throw a lot of lead into a general area in a hurry while you are moving. These rifles are good at this. Now, what they are not all that good at is one shot long distance shooting. I know, I know they have good accuracy out to 600 yards...when they are new and in pristine condition. Run a thousand rounds through them as fast as you can and that is going to start slipping. The old thing about the M-16 being so devastating used to make me laugh. Most of them start key-holing pretty quickly and that means that they aren't spinning the bullet enough to stabilize it. That's what happens when you burn the barrel out dumping clips on full auto. That is fine though because they aren't mean for varment shooting...I think of them as sort of long distance shotguns.


If you are going to be moving a lot they are the best way to go. If you are going to be in a more defensive posture you need to move up to a battle rifle weight weapon, The M-14, was a battle rifle. the 7.62X54 will allow you to reach out a bit more and touch someone, The M-60 was great as a defensive weapon and the Model 70 sniper rifles were deadly in a snipers hands.


I remember a Demo Jeff Cooper did one time. He took ten men that were shooters but not military trained and let each of them let loose with a full auto M-16 at several man sized targets at 100 yards. None of them were especially successful and the best was about a 50% hit rate and a 10% kill rate.

After they were done he picked up an old Winchester 30 30 lever action and in seconds put a bullet hole in the head of each target. There is for sure something to be said for simple effective fire.


If you are in open country you would be better off with a bolt action that you were well aquainted with and plan on keeping them at a distance then having a pump shot gun when they got close. When you aren't moving a lot you can have the best of both worlds.


The big thing is that whatever you use you need to plan on enough ammo to become good with it NOW. Don't wait until after the fact to learn. For this reason I know several very serious men that are going the Ruger 10-22 route. If you are inside a hundred yards a 22LR between the eyes will get 'er done and these guys can do it in a flash. Up close they also use the 22LR in a good auto and can put 3 rounds in a playing card in an instant. These were people that didn't have the money to go to the big military toys so made the best out of what they could afford. They shoot a LOT and are VERY VERY good. I would put anyone of them up against a weekend warrior that shoots a few hundred rounds with their AR-15 and then calls it good.


Survival is an ART. Art takes practice. Be a dangerous MAN rather than just a man with a dangerous weapon. The great thing about a 22 is that you can afford to shoot until the weapon is like an extension of your will. Get a Mossberg pump shot gun a cheep[ reloader and shoot skeet and trap with it. After YOU get good then you can worry about upgrading your weaponry if you need to.


One of my personal favorite pairs is a Winchester Trapper in 357 and a Ruger revolver in the same. I LIKE the .357 mag and have shot my revolvers till they are instinctual. I have tens of thousands of rounds in that and 38 and used to shoot 3 to 5 hundred rounds two or three weekends a month. None of these are the BEST for nearly anything but in my hands I'll let you shoot AT me with your Auto. I only ask for ONE shot. It is just what I'm comfortable with.


I tried the AR/AK thing and to tell you the truth I nearly went broke feeding them and never really liked most of them much...I guess the Mini 14 was my favorite. Wish they made it in 308 Winchester or the 7.62X54 now that might be my perfect weapon! I'm not too fond of the 7.62X34 though in some ways it is better than the 5.56.


It isn't sexy these days but there is nothing wrong with any of the good lever-actions. I'm the third generation to hunt with the same Savage 99F in 300savage and I will put it up against about any non-magnum 30 cal for accuracy and reach.


I guess what I'm trying to impart is that you don't need to treat this like a hairstyle. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or uses. You need to choose based on what you can AFFORD to by and shoot a LOT. Grow comfortable with it and you will be well armed. When the bottom falls out I will be able to have all the cute ARs and AKs I want. If they mess with me or mine I'll drop you from cover from as far away from them as possible and collect the spoils after the fact. DON'T depend on a WEAPON, depend on yourself and remember that not being seen is even better than having the biggest weapon!

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I guess the important thing here is to re-evaluate what it is you are looking for, exactly. You say you are the 'one shot one kill' kinda guy, but you still want a self loading rifle so you can fire again without moving your body...that's kind of contradictory, though. If you shoot once and hit your target, it won't matter if you move to load another round, because (presumably) you'll be moving the rifle to another target anyway. Take some time to consider why you want this long gun, where you expect to use it, and what kind of targets you will be shooting at - no one gun can do everything well.


The really big calibers are usually bolt action (because it can handle the higher pressures with a simpler mechanism). Semi-autos cost more to manufacture, and so they cost more to buy as well. For the budget you have set aside, you are unlikely to find a large caliber semi-auto rifle in good condition


You can buy an M1 Garand (arguably one of the greatest battle rifles ever made) for $525 plus 25 bucks shipping, from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. That's a used rifle in serviceable condition, not new in the box, of course. Here's a link to look the info over:


For $299, you can go thru Cabela's and buy a Remington Model 770 bolt action rifle, new in the box, with a 3-9x40mm scope, in a variety of calibers including .30-06 and .300 Winchester Magnum. There are similar deals out there for other bolt action rifles, if you don't want to buy a Mosin/Mauser/etc.


I'm a big fan of the Ruger rifles, from the 10/22 thru the Mini-14 and the Mini-30. Lots of after market options for customizing them, and as far as reliability..well, they're Rugers.


But before you drop a ton of greenbacks on your rifle, do some serious thinking about what you really want, and what you really need.

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I agree with the Nagant


everyone forgets to factor in magazines and other accessories stripper clips and mag pouches

and the prices seem cheap until you factor in shipping about $100 bucks for 440 rounds


if Lee harvey can shuck and load 3 in under 10 seconds and hit a moving target with a

Carcano you ought to be able to.


and this scenario would leave you money enough for other STUFF..........

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Not to hijack Autonomous, but I've had my hands through more than a few Mosins and never found them difficult to load (actually easier than many other guns that can be had at four times the price). Although for some of the barely used ones I've found the bolt a touch sticky during extraction until you get a about a hundred rounds through them.


What exactly was the problem you were having? I'm asking for my own edification, I do not doubt your claim in the least.

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I can put AIMED fire down range with any of my lever guns as fast or faster than most folks can put AIMED fire down range with their AR platforms and what arrives is 30-30, 45 Colt or 45-70 Marlin. I am a huge fan of lever guns. I like the feel, the way they point the ease of operation. Maybe if I practiced as much with a bolt as I do with the levers it'd be different but I really like my .45 Colt revolver and lever gun.


Have you fired .38's in your .357? I've wondered if that works well. I've considered a carbine to go with my .357 and I'd like to know the result if you don't mind sharing.

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Thanks for the suggestions and advice fellas. I have closed my search in on a ruger mini-14 for the ammo cost and availability, ill reassess my tolerances and graces and combine it with the guns specs.

Have you considered a Saiga in .223 or 7.62x39? They are pretty rugged and go for around $350, which would leave you with enough cash to pick up a thousand rounds.

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biblenguns i have considered them but im not sure where i can findd one at that price, even online. no pawn shops or sporting goods depts near me have that product because ive searched them top to bottom at least within a 25 mile radius. do you know of any good websites where i can check for them? is the only website i have ever ordered from and they are constantly out of stock:/

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biblenguns i have considered them but im not sure where i can findd one at that price, even online. no pawn shops or sporting goods depts near me have that product because ive searched them top to bottom at least within a 25 mile radius. do you know of any good websites where i can check for them? is the only website i have ever ordered from and they are constantly out of stock:/


Over the years I've managed quite a few good deals on gunbroker. Most of the places and folks you buy from will give you an inspection period, but to this point I've only had one problem out of roughly 30 or so gun purchases, and that was easily remedied.

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I can put AIMED fire down range with any of my lever guns as fast or faster than most folks can put AIMED fire down range with their AR platforms and what arrives is 30-30, 45 Colt or 45-70 Marlin. I am a huge fan of lever guns. I like the feel, the way they point the ease of operation. Maybe if I practiced as much with a bolt as I do with the levers it'd be different but I really like my .45 Colt revolver and lever gun.


Have you fired .38's in your .357? I've wondered if that works well. I've considered a carbine to go with my .357 and I'd like to know the result if you don't mind sharing.


Capt Bart


an 1894C loves 38 spl and hold 10 versus 9 357 mags


here is the link for the best bullet I found you have a hard time using certain bullet types.


try a few, I like they are copper plated lead jacketed in 38 does not

mash out as well I run them at +P


here is a link you need if you buy a marlin if you do this before you start shooting then you

will have no problems.


I love the marlin side eject over top ejection IMO

Edited by juzcallmesnake

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Guest survival101
Well when I go to load it with stripper clips i put the clip into that notch and push down on the bullets. they try to move but the lips at the top of the internal magazine don't relax to let the new rounds in. To load the magazine I have to do it one round at a time threw the notch 1/4 the way up in the feed lips and slid the round back into place.


no comment.

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no comment.


omg gun euphemisms *gasp* :eek:



Moving right along... I had to drag my Mosin out and tinker with it a bit. It took a while to find the stripper clips I have for it since I don't use them. With the stripper clips I've found they work better if you tilt the top back once secured into the lips and then get rough with it (sharp push). That's why I don't us the stripper clips, I cut my thumb on them frequently. Loading individual rounds I had a problem in the past where the interrupter/ejector wasn't fully mobile which led to difficulty loading.


I personally load with the bullet sitting in the crook of my index figer, pressing the casing down with my thumb around the mid-line of the casing. Slide it back, and release with my index finger and bury the cartridge with my thumb. I insert the cartridge webbing first at about mid magazine length. any resistance you feel is just from the interrupter which is under spring tension and you can push past it.


Aside from the stripper clips being a pain reloading the Mosin shouldn't be troublesome, I wonder is there's a design difference in the rifle you're using, perhaps an odd ball design? This is really interesting to me.

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