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Ready?4What?

.308 Battle Rifle

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Without hesitation in a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI I would take my Bushmaster .308/7.62x51 Nato M4 w/ 18" barrell and collapsable stock with me and destroy the rest.

Sarge,

Thanks for the data. I find the data interesting as my wife's AK is quite accurate with consistent ammo out to 100 yards and is as good as I am over iron sights (old eyes - sigh) at 200 yards. Chinese ammo and old mil surplus ammo is so inconsistent that I don't think you can judge the weapon's accuracy using it. I wonder if it is manufacture or just a fluke?

 

I agree with the .308. I have very bad feelings toward the AR platform so it'll probably be the M1A. I especially liked the "destroy the rest" comment. Like many things, pets for instance, we are responsible for what happens to them after we leave. To leave weapons untended for BG's to find and use makes us at least partially responsible for how they are used. Good thoughts, Sarge, and thanks for your service.

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Ready?4What?

 

SAIGA

it is in .308 and has a removable mag and the one I have shoots 1 inch groups i use the

AK mount with a 4 power scope allows for use of iron sights

it looks like a regular rifle does not have a pistol grip it comes in numerous calibers including shotgun cal

 

http://www.saiga-shotguns.com/item/56179_RAA_Rifles_Shotguns_Saiga_308_Winchester_16_3_Inch_Barrel_Black_Stock.aspx

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While everyone has there own feel and likes asthetically and functionally of their weapons platforms the one flaw I consistantly see in preppers is the multitude and varying calibers of weapons in even one household and when you get groups of like minded that band their planning together it becomes a nightmare. The largest problem anymore with the AR based platforms is the initial cost but unlike most other weapons platforms it is still evolving if you don't like the gas inpingment system you can now get a drop in gas piston system, don't like the looks and want some thing more hightech looking with quick change barrel and caliber you have the ACR designed by Magpul. Unlike most weapons that are what they are the AR has constantly evolved and is still evolving I can take my issued M-4 out of the Armory in five min. pull out the gas inpingment system drop in a gas piston, don't want it it in 5.56 Nato (absolutely has to go) I can walk into a looted gun shop that has all the firearms gone pick up a 6.5, 6.8, 500 beowulf or .50 BMG uppers that nobody thinks to take because it is not a functioning firearm and just pushing out two pins convert it to any of the previously mentioned calibers oh you want to buy this abilility before things get that bad well you can for between $300 and $450 you can have most of them .50 BMG Is between $1000 and $1500 but there really is not a better cartridge for that 1.5 mile shot. now you have two weapons in one for between $1300 a.d $2200 dollars No I am not hawking th AR although it sounds like it however you must consider in your planning not only you weapons cost, its looks, its cartridge, and feel but the logistics behind it and its versatility I will not be able to travel with a machine shop if I have to bug out what the availability of spare parts if my wife cracks her weapons reciever and my buddy shears a firing pin will we be able to use the parts from my wifes useless weapon to repair his weapon and maintain our other weapons or is it all now useless junk and are now wasting time and energy scrounging for parts and or replacement of two weapons now that are out of commission and not feeding or protecting us. Are we all using the same caliber ammo and magazines so if you run low someone can toss you some is it readily available over the area we are traveling. can your weapon cover the most of the odd situations you may find yourself in. Capt. Bart you stated you would not be clearing, what about while bugging out looking for supplies as you run low or later when supplies start running out at your hide, I know I will have To start scavaging in six months if I have a years worth of supplies regardless of whether I have been able to put in crops or not, crops take time to grow so that there is a maintained reserve. You can not just look at your basic planning if you want to survive you have to review you logistics in detail and understand at what point additional measures will be nessasary. The mentallity of I prepped and have a years worth of supplies is good but after that then what? What are you just going to call for a resupply from your local warehouse.? Damn used the genny for a year now it is acting up better send it to the shop to get checked out. Not going to happen you need to have the parts and knowledge to fix the problem I have three genny's all are the same make and model and each has three basic spare parts kits so if I need to I can cannibalize them. The same goes for my weapons systems. So Do Not Just look at the surface of your prep needs or just the cost or asthetics you have to go to the roots of it, if its yours you should have the logistics and the know how to maintain it and a plan that goes beyond your stocked and supplied period. You have wasted all your efforts endangered you family and missed the point of prepping if you Have not done this. Just because it is a weapon does not exclude it from meeting these criteria or planning.

 

Your welcome Capt. Bart

 

SGT David M. Mcgregor SAMG, En, Ord

22nd En

Ft. Lewis, Wa

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warrior7r,

I understand your point of view. I don't completely agree. What I consider a flaw in a great many preppers ideas is that they must all have a common round with the rest of the world needlessly limits their survival ability. While .308 is perhaps the best round for all around use there is, taking squirrels with it can, say we, damage the meat. The 5.56 is wholly inadequate, in my not so humble opinion, for most of the survival use. Too much gun for squirrels, not enough for large game animals. Since I do not think combat will be a major part of SHTF scenarios, I tend to use the caliber that is best suited for the task at hand. That means more than one caliber in the house. In the case of a bug out, I agree, you want a 90% weapon (one that can do 90% of what is needed) that every one can use and share from - agreed. I think, based on my admittedly parochial view, that a basic 3 gun battery that does 90% of everything is what is required. An adequate combat arm that does the other things very well is preferred to a perfect combat arm that doesn't do the majority of the hunting and pest removal.

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Your absolutely right on having multiple firearms infact my cache's and kit possess multiple caliber weapons and the .22 LR is a favorite but I was responding to the threads positions on battle rifles personally I maintain my primary rifle .308/ 7.62x51 Nato, primary sidearm .40 S&W, light weight 12 ga pump and an ultra light compact .22 LR carbine as far as combat I do not believe there will be sustained combat but I do see Roving gangs of thugs acting as locust as a high probability and I do believe there will be a nearly complete fallout of common decency and boundries where violence will be overwhelmingly acceptable to achieve ones goals or take what you have and most certainly this will occur in urban areas and than radiating to the rural areas as resourses dwindle. So I also am not advocating a one firearm does all solution just more consistancy and options that are compatable they do make .22LR upper for the AR and if I could find one that was light and would fit a .308 AR lower receiver I would give up the carbine.

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Your absolutely right on having multiple firearms infact my cache's and kit possess multiple caliber weapons and the .22 LR is a favorite but I was responding to the threads positions on battle rifles personally I maintain my primary rifle .308/ 7.62x51 Nato, primary sidearm .40 S&W, light weight 12 ga pump and an ultra light compact .22 LR carbine as far as combat I do not believe there will be sustained combat but I do see Roving gangs of thugs acting as locust as a high probability and I do believe there will be a nearly complete fallout of common decency and boundries where violence will be overwhelmingly acceptable to achieve ones goals or take what you have and most certainly this will occur in urban areas and than radiating to the rural areas as resourses dwindle. So I also am not advocating a one firearm does all solution just more consistancy and options that are compatable they do make .22LR upper for the AR and if I could find one that was light and would fit a .308 AR lower receiver I would give up the carbine.

We are in about 99% agreement. I confess to being nervous about using multiple uppers as multiple rifles. If your .308 is in .22LR mode, you don't have a .308. Also a single failure in the lower takes out all of your rifles. Murphy being the optimist he is, that is where I'd count on the failure happening. I do agree 100% with your current mix. I'm looking for a .308, either a M1A or a Ruger Scout.

I'd like to argue about the collapse of morality but I've been in downtown Houston recently; I don't think you need to wait for TSHTF for morality to collapse. I agree about the roving gangs up to a point. From my, admittedly limited, experience of gangs I think they will remain in the urban areas defending and acquiring turf until they have lost the ability to migrate in force. I can always be wrong of course which is why I lean a bit to the M1A. I'm opinionated but not, I hope, stupid.

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Jut to let some of you in on something there is an insert that changes a 30-06 to .308

 

use the lest strongest locktite i think its green

 

to remove it you need a broken shell extractor for 30-06.

 

they use to be sold by http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

 

many times this works well just increases the throat length some times it will not group just got to try it.

 

heres one that converts 303 and 308 to 32acp

 

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/rifle-chamber-insert.aspx?a=471502

 

.308 mauser here http://mauser.net/firearms/rifles/mauser-rifles/m63tanker/index.htm

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Snake,

I looked at some a while back on the internet and it seems there is/was a high failure rate that prevented the gun from going back to .308. Led me to believe it wasn't worth the risk but everyone must make their own choice here. Thanks for the information.

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I do NOT consider myself to be an "expert" on all guns...I like guns but I am not a Gun Nut (I have many family members and friends who are and they are great resources for information when I need it) I personalty like my AR10 IF I wanted to use it as a MBR, but as it has been pointed out, it is pretty heavy and in a fight I cancarry my AR15 with tons of ammo compared to what I could carry with the AR10 (if the same weight). I can reach out and touch someone just fine with the AR15. If they are not wearing BPV or other Armor then If I hit them they will be out of the fight. This would be TEOTWAWKI so a gun shot wound from a 223 or a 308 mid chest would be a kill shot for most.

 

As it was pointed out by warrior7r the AR system can be converted by switching Uppers. Since I have two AR10's they will be for BOL home defense where I don't have to carry the ammo for miles while I fight. The AR15's are my patrol MBR as it is lighter and so is the ammo.

 

Having said that:

 

Buy what you think is best for YOU, learn to clean it, repair it and have replacement parts and most of all.... learn how to use it, how fix jams and mis-fires and practice with it regularly. Waiting until TEOTWAWKI to happen is not the time to start practicing.

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if it were me I would not want to remove it I would red locktite it in place or at least have it

stored beneath the butt pad with the locktite so if i need it I would have it.

 

if you look on the site under adapters a person who does not have all the money in the world would

be able to have alternatives calibers for rifle and shotgun

 

a single shot shotgun can for the price of a second gun can shoot 25 different cartridges and these

folks make custom adapters now that's what I call versatile.

 

has anyone considered 410 shotgun pistols, for these pistols that use 410 shells you got to think outside

the box A leonad 410 side by side can now shoot other calibers and will fit in a BOB easy.

 

I know its not for every one I was only attempting to show the masses that there are alternatives

and some day a one gun society may exist.

 

or a quiet alternative like 32acp in a 308 may be just the ticket.

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Texprep,

for myself I updated to the newer bushmaster from the AR 10 because it weighs just 1.5 lbs more than the standard M-16 granted the ammo is much heavier but that does not mean anything for me because I regularly carry up to 92lbs when you add in my body armor, ruck, weapon, ammo and aid bag however would encourage you to reassess your thoughts on the effectiveness and the knockdown difference between the 5.56 Nato/223 and the 7.62 Nato/.308 cartridgesthe Army has decided that the new rifle will be in 7.62 Nato/.308 because of performance issues with the 5.56 Nato And I have a video of an insurgent in Tiktit, Iraq that was shot 12 times in the chest with the M-4 at 40 yards and continued to stays standing and continues to fight until a 240 gunner hits him with a five round burst in the chest that flattens him like a prize figher hit him and he does not get back up. The Sequence runs about 45 seconds no I wasn't involved in that one but I have been involved in enough that, with the 5.56 Nato it is always two in the chest one in the head before moving to the next target. After action reveiws of weapon performance is available to the public. After having carried both the 5.56 in both M-16 and M-4 and the 14lb M-14 in .308 as a designated marksman I will take the old heavy M-14 anyday or any other 7.62 Nato/

.308 for that matter over a 5.56 Nato/223 it is weight well worth it. Since my first combat deployment the only time I handle the 5.56 Nato or the 9mm is when I absolutely have to on duty. You will not find these in the weapons I teach privately with or my personal collection because they are such lousy rounds and that is from personal experience. My experience is being echoed to such a degree in the military that in the search for our next gen firearms both pistol and rifle we are going retro with our cartidges .308 and .45ACP for the competition however the .40 SW is also being evaluated for the pistol there is no other rifle cartridge being considered to me personally that is pretty telling. So please research before you settle, it truly could mean your life or you loved ones lives Because that decision has meant lives in the military.

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I'm not sure if them going to 45 would increase or decrease supplies. On one hand more manufacturing on the other hand the army locks in with current manufactures and there could be an initial shortage. economics is a headache.

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It would not affact civilian supplies at all as all military Ammo is produced by the Lake City Magazine and its branch operations which is why mil ammo's head stamp is LC. Only Spec Ops and Mil Law Enforcement can purchase civilian ammo except in the event of an emergency.

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warrior7,

you and I are pretty much on the same page here. I know this may surprise those who've read my stuff but I like shooting the 5.56. It is flat and accurate and it is a great varmint gun. Out to a couple of hundred yards, it is a solid shooter and with civilian ammo can do a real job as a defensive carbine.

 

The 5.56 is NOT a rifle however and can not do the job at 750 yards that a battle rifle can do. It is also, in my not so humble opinion, light for big game use. Yes, a great shot can take heavy game with it but you don't want to have to be a great shot for it to be effective, especially if you are trying to feed a family.

 

There is a reason the 9 mm is being replaced by the .40 for police use as well. A 9 mm with a civilian round can be an effective personal defense weapon and in a carbine can be a good "GOOD" gun in a city or east of the Mississippi but it has proven inadequate with FMJ ammo in combat. Can you get dead shot with one? Of course, but it takes longer and as a shooter, I may not have time or ammo to triple tap every BG in the room.

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You bring up two good points one is ammo we both know that most individual buy mil surplus, bulk reloads or target ammo which mak an already marginal firearm and make it substandard want proof the Representative Giffords tragedy (doesn't matter what side of the fence your on it was) takes a 9mm point blank to the head lives through the 7.8 min for EMS to arrive 6 min of eval and loading 8.5 min to arrive in the ER 17 min in the ER before going into emergency surgery to relieve the pressure. That is a long time to live with a bullet through the brain. the point is she survived because Loughner used a marginal caliber luckily he only got one shot on her others like the nine yr old girl recieved multiple wounds and died. Yes a nine will kill but legal if you have to put ten rounds on the target to stop it from being a threat you just wasted a precious resource in a TSHTF event or in normal times you will be convicted of manslaughter for excessive use of force because even though you know what happened the jury will just hear you shot him 10 times. The other point is yes there are classes of cartridges most people don't know that. The 5.56 Nato/223 is in the Assault class and the 7.62 Nato/.308 is in the battle class the point of the assault class is to inflict injuries that require aid thereby removing multiple individuals from the fight and also so the cries of the wounded affect unit moral. A battle class cartridge is meant to kill outright or incapacitate enemy combatants through hypovolemic shock massive wounds or major organ failure. I base my choices on historical data and personal experience if I have any. I cant afford to have target weapons and seperate combat weapons and I believe in train as you fight and down not up which means that if you train on a more powerful weapons system it is easy to pick up a less powerful weapon and use it effectively where as if you train on a lesser cartridge it is ten fold harder to use it effectively.

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first I am having a problem with the 750 yard scenario

in what alternate reality will self defense go out to 750 yards

now I have and can shoot quite well but since when will I be required

to fire at that distance I can move off and they will never know I am there.

 

I can understand penetration aspect of .308 but firing at a person beyond

a couple of hundred yards how are you making the decision they are

an enemy, and if they are why get into a questionable shooting event

it is never going to be considered a defense act.

 

I seem to recall in these threads we are going to get together and barter

help each other shooting someone at 750 yards that's not going to happen.

and shows me that my initial thoughts of bug in and not get involved with

others was correct.

 

you wont know who I am what I want or if I am just passing through

at 750 yards so this is murder if they are not firing at you.

if this country comes to that then what is all this about farming

hell just shoot them and steal it, oh that's right none of us would kill

to survive or gain what we needed yea OK right.

 

I thought this was about prepping and hunting and surviving

hey if this about war and killing murder and mayhem

you are not going to survive because they will have big weapons

and your bug will get vaporized ever heard of a mortar

at 750 yards your just sticking your neck out for what gain?

 

what if the person your shooting at is point man

oh now you just opened a can of worms

so your going to what then with your 300 rounds.

 

I guess you and your "300" are going to defend Thermopylae from the Persians

OK if this is about survival then we are talking stealth traps snares fishing at night

close combat techniques knife fighting garroting judo jujitsu stick fighting you know quiet.

small fires cover and concealment not drawing attention to yourself .

fire a .308 and you will have company and if they are smarter than you

they will wait and shoot you at 750 yards and get a rifle and 299 rounds of ammo.

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First most people can not effectively engage a target over 250 meters regardless of the weapon or sights my point is about stopping power and penetation for myself I can engage a target at that range but it would be used as a psychological weapon against a known threat or engagement of a pressing threat that was I.D.'d and then it would be to engage hostile leadership. the choice of .308 is not for sniping mut taking someone definatively out of the fight

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Snake,

Left Ft. Hood two months ago 5.56 is only legal for varmits during normal times as it is not considered adequate and I know more than a few hogs that would leave you and a 5.56/223 in a tree or getting a lot of med care. Do not under estimate those Damn pigs because I promise you will only do it once. and do not forget you have some serious exotics running around down there also.

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I've an upcoming Capt's Chair on this and I don't want to do too much duplication .... BUT

 

So I took off work a little early the other day and went to visit my local purveyor of lead launchers. I was thinking of the Mosin-Nagant rifles he had on sale for a good price. Well, they were all sold out and he couldn't get anymore. He's trying but everybody is buying. Another issue to ponder. So I ask about the M1As that he had in stock, all gone. He offered me an AR clone in .308 but I don't like AR platforms and it was EXPENSIVE. May be that was why he still had that one.

 

I asked about the Ruger Scout - not in stock. How about the Ruger Mini-30. Some guy bought the last two in the store the day before. He had a couple of bolt action types that would have been fine but they were in the $3000 ballpark. That is a little out of my league at the moment.

 

Then he handed me his son's Kel Tec RFB in .308. I TRIED to buy that puppy. What a beautiful weapon but his son wouldn't part with it for any amount. They can't get any more - Kel Tec has back ordered all their requests. Sigh. Then he handed me a PTR 91. Said it was the last one he had. Some ex-Ranger dude had bought his other one and all the extra mags for it that morning. I hated it. It fit me beautifully. Had a great trigger pull. Everything about it said German precision except that the PTR is made in the US to the German specs. The bolt handle is under the left hand and functions perfectly. Semi-auto, .308, perfect fit - but I was there for the M1A, which he didn't have.

 

I couldn't help it. Honestly, it followed me home so now I have to keep it. I'll get to shoot it this weekend so I'll know a tad better how it shoots but it feels great. The interesting thing is I feel much better now. There was a hole in my preps that needed filling. The ability to shoot effectively out to 500 yards (the rifleman's quarter mile) was missing in my preps. Yes, I had guns that would do it, but they were already looking at large bullet drops or slow reloads or both. Now that range is covered.

 

What can I say. A beautiful rifle. A comment from Minarchist_1776 on the Survival Cache gear site made a comment about the German style of shooting doesn't use a cheek weld. I'll keep that in mind as I shoot my new piece of German engineering.

http://survivalcache.com/book-review-bostons-gun-bible/

 

post-6-13851497636833_thumb.jpg

Edited by Capt Bart
add photo

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After reading and considering everything said here (Thanks too everybody )I know what I need.

I own a 22mag mossberg boltaction,have it from the tender age of 14,squirl,rabbit,racoons,ground hogs,Pigens at a quary..jep I can hit a ground hog at 75 to 100 yards with the right conditions..shtf...it stays in the bag..I was taught the m16 beleving I was going to Viet Nam in 1972....so its what I know..thats the point..comfortable in my hands...Im a bug in person because of Medical issues with a family member...working on a bug out site...we all be different..I will be purchasing the ar platform and buld one myself to re-learn the basic ,also get the 22lr addon for training of My daughters when they visit once a year(both are out of state with great husbands..thank God),and will get the upper reciver for the .308..and when money is not tight will get a lower for it and hand my wife the .223,if she will ever let go of my 12gauge(1965 JC penny pump cut to 18 1/2 in)yes it holds more than its suppost to.Iron sites of .223,optical for .308 Im getting old so I like to ID what Im shooting..before I have too..

Again thanks for such a great discussion by all..It helped to make up my mind..for taking Game..well my bow of cource,quiet and deadley and the meat taste better(if you realy want to lean to hide and hunt in the woods try to bow hunt and take it at 35 yards without a sound),just saying that we all must adapt to our local situation,I cant take a 600yard shoot in most of the areas around here, hills and mountains get in the way,but I want the ability too if need be....again Thanks to All.

Edited by 101matt

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101matt,

The .308 is for more than long range shooting. While I firmly advocate being able to hit at the "rifleman's quarter mile" (500 yards) I am not impressed with the long range shot while hunting. Without compelling reasons, shooting at an animal at long range risks wounding only and leaving the animal to die slowly in needless pain. Just my not so humble opinion but I think I am very correct here.

 

The point of a major caliber rifle is that it will do most of the jobs required of it. It will take large animals, penetrate an engine block, work effectively at 100 yards in all scenarios and provide for the long range shot if needed and justified. The minor calibers won't do all that. What is cover to a .223 is may only be concealment to a .308.

 

I am not a fan of multiple uppers as a substitute for multiple rifles since the lower is a single point of failure. That said, your plan to build your battery with the .308 upper followed by a lower when possible is a good way to acquire the additional capability now and the full rifle when affordable. I am looking at getting a .308 barrel for my break-action 45-70 as a backup for the PTR. I like having 2 bullet launchers for every caliber and using a flexible arm as a backup is fugal and efficient. I use a Ruger Blackhawk as a backup for both my .45 Colt and .45 ACP weapons; put in the proper cylinder and go. Since it is my backup weapon, a single failure doesn't cost me multiple capability.

 

By the way, check out http://www.survivalcache.com/forums/showthread.php?266-Abbreviations&p=3926 for acronyms and abbreviations.

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Capt Bart I totaly agree.

"The .308 is for more than long range shooting. While I firmly advocate being able to hit at the "rifleman's quarter mile" (500 yards) I am not impressed with the long range shot while hunting. Without compelling reasons, shooting at an animal at long range risks wounding only and leaving the animal to die slowly in needless pain. Just my not so humble opinion but I think I am very correct here.:

I would never take a shot at an animal at 400 pluss yards

As a bow hunter these many years I have seen too many wounded animals shot by unexperenced so called " hunters" in the woods..and Im lazy and dont want to track that deer for a couple of hours..If I cant take it "clean" it stays for another year.I have had deer lay down and die within 100 feet of me putting an arrow through it at 30 yards and under.

I do agree that the .308 is going to be my primary weapon...Its about time and MONEY and me relearning the system of the weapon..

Yep the Black Hawk is on the list..in .45acp and a colt 45...And so is the "WALKER" in 45 /black power.Its a heavy piece of Iron that can come in handy..

If Im taking a shot at a enemy at 400pluss yards its for 2 reasons,deture them from moving foward or to move them to a place where my Engr. training has set up a kill zone.

I hope and pray we still have time to Prep....and I never have to loose my inner savage...I will and have washed another mans feet,and try to live at peace in all things.

Edited by 101matt

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    • Крижане серце II 2020 дивитися онлайн 62



      Дивитися мультфiльм Крижане серце II
      Дивитися мультфiльм Крижане серце II
      Дивитися мультфiльм Крижане серце II


















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