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which is better in your opinion and why?

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ok lets create a shtf situation.

 

say you have a situation where a soldier is given a direct order to do something.

ok now, the order is clearly wrong and against the constitution as well, but it is a given order

though. which is the better, the soldier that clearly sees the situation and refuses to comply, or the soldier that keeps his/her feelings out of it and follows the direct command and why?

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ok lets create a shtf situation.

 

say you have a situation where a soldier is given a direct order to do something.

ok now, the order is clearly wrong and against the constitution as well, but it is a given order

though. which is the better, the soldier that clearly sees the situation and refuses to comply, or the soldier that keeps his/her feelings out of it and follows the direct command and why?

 

Isn't this what the Nazis said"I was just following orders".

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I can morally object to a lawful order, wisdom tells me that, if it's not illegal, I must follow it. Wisdom would also tell me to get that order in writing, signed, and witnessed to CMA. If it does end up being illegal, I'm covered, if not, I have an autograph. If it is a legal order this is a small hassle, if not they'll find another patsy.

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I can morally object to a lawful order, wisdom tells me that, if it's not illegal, I must follow it. Wisdom would also tell me to get that order in writing, signed, and witnessed to CMA. If it does end up being illegal, I'm covered, if not, I have an autograph. If it is a legal order this is a small hassle, if not they'll find another patsy.

 

EXACTLY!!!!

You can either be a man and stand up for right or you can do like Hitler's minions and hide behind the orders excuse. Of course neither course is pleasant. There is only one that I can live with.

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ok lets create a shtf situation.

 

say you have a situation where a soldier is given a direct order to do something.

ok now, the order is clearly wrong and against the constitution as well, but it is a given order

though. which is the better, the soldier that clearly sees the situation and refuses to comply, or the soldier that keeps his/her feelings out of it and follows the direct command and why?

 

I would get it in writing, disobey it turn copies over to IG and JAG if persisted on then the media and if possible if it is an individual take them into custody if systemic I am no longer bound by contract or law to obey or serve under them... My oath is to the constitution and by proxy the people to obey those lawfully appointed over me an unconstitutional order nulifies their authority.. I walk

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I was never in the military so I hope I'm not speaking out of turn. I heard an interview on the radio a few weeks ago with a guy, (I can't remember his name) who is either the founder - or one of the co-founders - of a movement within the military called "Oath Keepers" that addresses this very subject. These guys, (and gals) vowed to keep their oath to protect the constitution and not follow illegal orders. I have a lot of respect for these people.

Edited by PatzerDave

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I have to agree 400% with Warrior. I made my feelings on this pretty open in the NRA News thread in the firearms forum.

An illegal order is just that and I will NOT follow it. We have all paid too high a price to throw away our morals, ethics and the Constitution which we hold so dear and true to our hearts.

 

Now if you want to have fun... ask your local official why they fly an American flag with the gold border? This is the "federal" flag and represents federal authority, aka, martial law. I will bet not many (if any) will even know that.

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I was never in the military so I hope I'm not speaking out of turn. I heard an interview on the radio a few weeks ago with a guy, (I can't remember his name) who is either the founder - or one of the co-founders - of a movement within the military called "Oath Keepers" that addresses this very subject. These guys, (and gals) vowed to keep their oath to protect the constitution and not follow illegal orders. I have a lot of respect for these people.

 

It's for active duty as well as veterans as well and any current or former LEO's. I am a member.

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ok guys but the thing is, when your out in the bush you dont always have the option or time to get something in writing ya know.

 

Then I go through the chain of command. If I don't have that option I refuse.

 

Out in Colorado, while in the MP's, we were alerted on a Saturday morning after a snowstorm. A state of emergency was declared and we were asked to help stranded motorists. I ran down to the motor pool started my Humvee and went to the bay to get further instructions.

 

My LT told us she needed ten drivers with snow driving experience, and the rest would start working on the next platoons' humvees, I raised my hand, being a Michigander, everyone else was from a southern state. She looked at me and said "if I have anything to say about it, Hoffmann's not driving.". My team leader argued with her because he and the rest of the NCOs knew I could do anything asked of me, but she wouldn't change her stance. I looked in the eye, smiled, and said "then I don't need to be here ma'am." and walked out.

 

I prayed that I would get a counciling statement, (a written disciplinary note in my file), over this. It never came.

 

Later, in Bosnia, we were working road duty on Tuzla airbase, when my duty partner got swapped to from a private to a specialist. I didn't think much about it until a friend, who slept in the platoon sergeants tent pulled me aside one day and explained that the platoon sergeant thought I was incompetent and wanted someone to assure I didn't mess anything up.

 

A week or so later, we were called out secure a scene for CID, criminal investigation division, I responded with "good copy, are you sure you want to send me, sgt _____ thought I was incompetent," that didn't go over well. I was told to return to station and then told to expect a counciling statement that evening.

 

After shift, my desk sergeant, also my team leader, asked why I said that over the radio knowing that everyone up the camp commander listened to that channel? I told him that if my platoon sergeant didn't believe I could do my job neither should anyone above him. He handed me a counciling statement that started with: "Spc Hoffmann, I know you're not incompetent, you just spend too much time trying to build the perfect mousetrap."

 

That was as far as I got, "sergeant, if I build the perfect mousetrap, I only have to build one," Huge smile upon my face. He smirked and said "just sign it."

 

I can't say I was ever given an unlawful order, but I was never afraid to speak my mind and my NCOs knew any job given me was accomplished.

Edited by Gilla
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I was issued one illegal order in my time on active duty. I refused, in front of witnesses and requested a court martial. The whole thing was dropped but I was scared out of my wits. Still, I had no choice. Turned out to be a good thing for me. The Capt. that issued the order was removed, RIFT'd and I was promoted ahead of my peer group. Apparently the Col. found out, in detail, from a senior NCO who was in the room and took my side of the issue. He arranged for my promotion since he considered personal integrity one of the most important characteristics of a good officer.

 

A correction to this thread. A military officer does not have the option of obeying an illegal order. We are under an obligation, no choice involved, to disobey illegal orders. We executed Nazi's for obeying orders that were illegal according to our law standard. The Nazi actions WERE legal in their system. Their supreme court said so. We executed them anyway.

 

I can only pray that the current military schools continue to inculcate the sense of duty that demands refusal to obey illegal orders, regardless of the consequences.

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My platoon sergeant ordered me to treat a dog on our FOB after it got hit by a forklift. I refused for several reasons. For one, I was not going to waste limited medical supplies on a dog. Two I was a medic not a Vet, and 3 that dog stank to high heaven. I was a brand spankin new private but still spoke up. Sure he smoked the living crap outta me, but it didnt matter to me because I knew I was right.

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I've refused a few illegal orders, and lived to tell the tale, but on the other hand I know a few guys that refused to obey obviously illegal orders and got put through the grinder. With illegal orders you're walking a pretty fine line between self preservation and what you know to be wrong.

 

A lot of it's the way you handle it too. The ones I refused I didn't call the gentlemen out in front of everyone, I didn't need to, they were good men, just in high stress situations (Burned out, tired, injured, etc.) I got them out of earshot of everyone else and explained exactly what was wrong with the orders given and told them to give it to me in writing if they were still determined to see it done. In all but one case they rethought it and changed their minds, the one that didn't got a bit messy but no one died so it worked out.

 

You notice that I went one on one with them, I didn't make it a public challenge to their authority. Challenging a leaders authority publicly can damage the integrity of their command and that's not fixing anything, just makes it worse. In a way you back them into a wall and force them to flex their command muscles when you come across as insubordinate in front of everyone making a bad situation worse.

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My platoon sergeant ordered me to treat a dog on our FOB after it got hit by a forklift. I refused for several reasons. For one, I was not going to waste limited medical supplies on a dog. Two I was a medic not a Vet, and 3 that dog stank to high heaven. I was a brand spankin new private but still spoke up. Sure he smoked the living crap outta me, but it didnt matter to me because I knew I was right.

 

who's forklift was it? who hit the dog?

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who's forklift was it? who hit the dog?

 

By FOB, he was in a combat zone I am guessing. The wild (stray) dogs over there were everywhere and a real hazard. The military actually had a civilian contractor whose job it was to exterminate the animals over disease and attacks in southern Iraq where I was.

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By FOB, he was in a combat zone I am guessing. The wild (stray) dogs over there were everywhere and a real hazard. The military actually had a civilian contractor whose job it was to exterminate the animals over disease and attacks in southern Iraq where I was.

 

We had roaming packs of wild dogs in some areas of A-stan my first trip over there. There wasn't any ammo accountability for us so after they tried to eat one of our troops we declared open season on them.

 

Why on earth would anyone want to patch one of those mangy vicious brutes up?

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"We had roaming packs of wild dogs in some areas of A-stan my first trip over there. There wasn't any ammo accountability for us so after they tried to eat one of our troops we declared open season on them."

 

It was the same for me in both crap holes early on put them down fast as soon as you saw them those mongrels were straight dangerous they may look starving, pathetic and weak but they were deceptive, wicked fast, and had a taste for human flesh from the corpses. one of our female medics she got herself tore up by one. She felt sorry called to it it came right to her and proceeded to clamp its jaws around her face. I dont have to find out for myself I learn from others mistakes and I consider myself a dog lover not down range though

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"We had roaming packs of wild dogs in some areas of A-stan my first trip over there. There wasn't any ammo accountability for us so after they tried to eat one of our troops we declared open season on them."

 

It was the same for me in both crap holes early on put them down fast as soon as you saw them those mongrels were straight dangerous they may look starving, pathetic and weak but they were deceptive, wicked fast, and had a taste for human flesh from the corpses. one of our female medics she got herself tore up by one. She felt sorry called to it it came right to her and proceeded to clamp its jaws around her face. I dont have to find out for myself I learn from others mistakes and I consider myself a dog lover not down range though

I agree. Wild dogs are more dangerous than wolves. Most were domesticated at one point and they have no fear of humans; actually look at them as a food source. If you don't have alpo, you become "dog chow" on the hoof. I like dogs, have 3, but over there, you must treat them as one of the insurgents.

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Sorry I was in when Most NCOs were just waiting to get thier 20 and out after Nam.They keep our butts out of trouble.NOW the 2nd LTs just in country were a problem..As a driver of a 5ton dump,and in the woods on the Check. border sometimes the LTs would not listen,It cost me 2 carton of Camels to a "Friendley" Man who was holding an AK and pointing the OTHER way.

Yes I jumped out with the cigs in my hand and "he

spoke better English than I did..My LT gave me his cig rattons for 3 months..The Lt turned out ok and we Never spoke about it ..

 

But if I was given an ORDER to do something I knew was Illegal,shit I had too many artical 15s already so I would just say "Not me".

We were not in a WAR zone so it was different..

JMHO...

Edited by 101matt

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WhennI was in the USAF, I was told by some peers that I was "making them look bad" by the quality of the job I did. I replied, "Sorry guys, I'm not making you all look bad, you guys are managing that quite nicely all by yourself". Didn,t win me any friends but, I never ever got a bad assignment from our superiors. Always felt vindicated when several of them were given General and dishonorable discharges for their "behavior". Never had a mbad order, just saw a lot of peers who were trying to be amatuer proctologist-politicians rather than trying to do their best in thier respective assignments.

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